Why Mark Driscoll Shouldn’t Bug Ya
June 25, 2009 by iMonk
UPDATE: In addition to criticizing Driscoll for his nutty exegesis of Song of Solomon and his less than impressive analysis of The Shack, I’ve backed up Pastor Mark before.
It became painfully/strangely/humorously obvious at this week’s SBC meeting that a lot of people are worried about Mark Driscoll.
I’d like to suggest a brief program to calm you people down before you hurt yourselves, or worse, start a preaching series on cursing preachers who link sex toys on their sermon pages.
1. First, cards on the table: I am, for the most part, a supporter of Driscoll. I’m not in agreement with him on gender issues, and I’ll criticize him without mumbling on a collection of boneheaded maneuvers. But the guy’s vulnerability, passion for the Gospel, missionary’s heart, vision for church planting and insight into contemporary ministry far outweigh his flaws. Give him a few years and some room to be a goober.
2. The 75% of the problem you people have with Driscoll is that he’s bone-headed enough to hang some of his laundry out on the clothesline where we can see it. Trust me: all your preacher-heroes are flawed in ways that would disappoint you. Driscoll’s flaws simply have to do with his public persona. The other 25% really are flaws that, while not disqualifying, do need to be repaired, and I am confident they will be.
3. Much of the Driscoll hysteria is pure hype. Donald Miller called him the cussing preacher and most of you think Donald Miller is an emerging church apostate. Can you locate a quote of Driscoll “cussing” in a sermon? (We’ll talk about his topical and vocabulary choices in a moment.) I heard him say “Who the hell do you think you are?” once. If you have the impression that Driscoll’s language is the swearing equivalent of Good Will Hunting, you’re misinformed.
4. Here’s the deal: when he’s on the topic of sex, he talks like he’s on late night television. IOWs, he discusses sex very much unlike any preacher you know, and more like a typical guy in Seattle. He needs to change this. The problem is that Driscoll’s success has given him an audience of people who have no place whatsoever to process a joke about masturbation, etc. or to see Driscoll as embarrassing, but not dangerous.
5. My good friend- and I mean that folks- Frank Turk and I are going to have a mini-debate on here sometime regarding whether and how Driscoll should apologize for the extent of his poor example and distraction to the Gospel. I believe Driscoll’s willingness- imperfect as it may be- to be mentored by men like John Piper is as good an example as his occasionally crude words are a bad example.
6. Most of Driscoll’s problems relate to a sermon series that I believe was an unmitigated disaster. I’m willing to give the guy that one. I expect him to learn a few things.
7. If your pastor or youth minister is behaving poorly, it’s an issue in your church and in his context. Don’t think a motion at the SBC is going to make your little Driscoll fanboy sit up and fly right. That’s your bad choice of a person to work at your church. I’d advise you to get him a mentor and some feedback, and see if he grows.
8. Definitions of “holiness” in evangelicalism can get pretty prissy. The Bible has a lot of characters who are a lot more like Driscoll than they are like some prissy, fussy, fainting, prude of a morality cop. Men respect Driscoll for his imperfect holiness. People who are offended at his imperfect holiness may be in a zone that the rest of us should avoid anyway. Sometimes what offends you is offensive, and sometimes it’s an indication you ought to be doing something more constructive with your time.
9. Banning Driscoll at Lifeway will do exactly nothing…..except maybe make him more interesting. The man has millions of mp3 and video downloads a month. Lifeway books aren’t actually where those who like his preaching plug into him. This is the way the world works now. Denominational approval is not required. Piper GIVES AWAY his books for Pete’s sake. If the SBC votes that Driscoll is bad, a few people feel better and Driscoll’s stuff sells 5% more than last month.
10. Listen carefully: preacher boys liking Driscoll has to do with Driscoll getting about 25 things right most of the critics have been complaining about for years. If he grows as a person in the next 5 years in the directions most of us think he will, I don’t think you are going to want to have dumped him in the trash for being young and arrogant on occasion.
Cindy
A lot of people do have preacher heroes. I don’t think that statement was aimed at any individual in particular. However, many Christians do make heroes of their ministers, for good or bad.
Sarah O: very well said; loved that post.
Greg R
Hi JMulkey-
No worries about arguments, it’s a fair question. As a universalist, I believe that God’s salvation extends to every living creature regardless of their actions or beliefs, and ultimately hold that all will be redeemed and returned to God in the fullness of time. I would say that’s the biggest point of difference (and I’m not targeting Mark Driscoll as a person I particularly disagree with- obviously, the vast majority of American (maybe even world?) Christianity does not hold a universalist view, not to mention Islam, etc notions on the matter- I just was pointing out that I am, by virtue of being in a state of disagreement about a core issue with the man, in a position where it would be natural for me to take issue to his preaching).
I also take issue with his ministry around gender and sexual orientation, or such that I’ve heard, read. I’m not, theologically, a complementarian, and I believe that God blesses any bit of love which humans show to each other, including love between two people of the same gender. In these areas, we disagree strongly.
Does that answer your questions?
Peace
Sarah O
Thanks Sarah
I went to Seattle Pacific University, just down the street from Mars Hill. A large number of my friends went there, and I went a couple of times. I didn’t like the place, myself, though I did apreciate that you could choose between wine and grape juice for communion. I also didn’t like the way he treated the university when they wouldn’t let him have a Bible study there without a faculty/staff advisor (like everyone else has to have). So, I’m not a fan of the man myself, but I’m not going to condemn him. He’s done a lot of good work and gotten a lot of people excited about being Christians. Mars Hill was a good neigbor to the Fremont/Ballard area while I was around.
iMonk,
I have no issues with Driscoll; if only we could purge him of his Calvinism.
I think Driscoll’s Calvinistic cred is highly suspect. He has a very odd way of talking about the atonement that is pretty much running from the L. I have never heard him mention election. On Easter he did an invitation and baptized hundreds of people on the spot. I think if his Calvinism were fisked, he’d be in trouble with the TRs.
Driscoll is like the bizarro Rob Bell…
That’s both good and bad…
I think it is okay to suspend judgment on Pastor Driscoll.
I know that some people are tempted to drop Driscoll in the “emergent” bucket or the “megachurch” category and be done with him. Yet, he is really a unique individual, and the critiques that we apply to those movements don’t fit well on the theologically sophisticated Driscoll.
I believe that his unorthodox style probably reaches some people with the gospel that would not be reached otherwise. Still, I think his hypermasculinity is as phoney and off-putting and counterproductive to the gospel as the femininity of the church that he is criticizing. In his attempt to avoid being girlish, he has fallen off the other side of the horse into the ditch of he-man masculinity. Why not just be yourself?
What I fear is that many evangelicals will slavishly ape Driscoll’s style because they think its effective. Ear-splitting music, crude language, slobbish style will become an even bigger problem than they are now in the church. Driscoll’s imitators are a much bigger problem than Driscoll.
Finally, if Driscoll has reached anyone, it is not because of his personality, but because of the Gospel that he preaches. Anyone who thinks they need to look, talk and dress like Driscoll to reach the lost is showing that they have too little confidence in the Word of God to work change in the lives of its hearers.
Also, if you think some of Driscoll’s recent preaching has been “nutty” and “unimpressive,” why should we hold him out as a model for others to follow?
Why not celebrate some of the thousands of relatively anonymous pastors in the land who consistently preach the Gospel in an orthodox way? Why are we so enamored with this guy? Because of his numbers or his propensity to attract attention to himself?
I’m reading the meta here and I’m gonna go have to lie down.
Now all we need is Dave Armstrong to remove me from the Anti-Calvinist hall of shame, and I might as well be eating babies. 5 years of blogging down the tubes in one day.
I fear you, iMonk. Truly, your kung fu is greater.
FWIW, I have had an epiphany about MD that I think will enrage everyone except maybe Phil and Dan at TeamPyro: the so-called “flaws” in things like his arrangement of the furniture around election and limited atonement aren’t because he doesn’t believe them: it’s because he’s a popularizer, and you can popularize something like that because it is actually offensive to the world that God is not just going to forgive the whole thing and let everyone in.
The other reason, as I see it, is that MD sees himself as superior to other intellectually. He feels like he is charismatic enough that he can talk down to people so that they won’t care, and he’s smart enough to say something they will accept without saying what he means. I have some off-line info about that which I can’t really share, but suffice it to say that I have witnessed it first-hand, and that was the moment he lost be as an erstwhile supporter.
So the question comes down to whether or not all of this needs to be heard out in a piublic court of appeals — and when iMonk has a free minute, we’ll kick that off.
Discussing Driscoll is not being “enamored” with him. He’s the topic of the post, not the thousands of anonymous pastors. None of them were given their own motions at the SBC.
1. My cards on the table: there are a lot of things I like about this man’s ministry and some I don’t. The sermon in Scotland was not his finest moment. I’m concerned about authoritarianism in his ministry, and how he views women’s roles in the body. I rejoice that he preaches the gospel and hope he continues to do so and doesn’t follow his megachurch friends into the sea of pragmatism, because if that happens it will be a great loss for all of us.
2. We all have our flaws, and, yes, ‘we all’ includes our favorite pastors, dead and alive.
3. Driscoll is going to have a hard time shaking this rep.
4. If he’s making the joke for humor’s sake, it’s definitely not helpful. But to tell the story as an example of the mindset he has to deal with is helpful, and if it makes you laugh, so be it. Most Christians don’t seem to even want to honestly talk about masturbation.
5. Driscoll should do a lot of things, but resign and disappear into the shadows isn’t one of them.
6. Amen.
8. We’re all messed up, and there are days when I think we’re all (including myself) so dark and evil God should do away with the whole lot of us, much less not use us as examples to others.
9. Banning his books must be about “protecting the family” from his “evil” ways, such as his cussing. Or his Calvinism.
10. Even when we know better, many of us Christians still love to dump those we hate in the trash. And we never separate the man from the idea: if he has a bad idea, then he is a bad person – if not the very devil himself.
Okay, Michael. I apologise. If you want to purge the comment, do so.
I will try to find a better balance of expression.
I think Driscoll’s tone and message are lost in translation sometimes. We need to consider the audience he is preaching to. Driscoll’s bread and butter is preaching to the common man, specifically the unchurched people in Seattle, Washington. It is obvious from his success that the same comments Driscoll makes that offend the more “spiritually mature” among us do a wonderful job of reaching his target audience.
Clark
I guess I need a new concordance. I’ve been looking for the verse “Be ye imperfectly holy, for I am imperfectly holy” and I can’t seem to find it in mine….
iMonk – I’ve heard Driscoll say (live at an Anglican event in Australia) something to the effect that he holds to “both” unlimited and limited atonement, humorously adding “I like to keep all the verses” when he was questioned about it. So if you’re talking TULIP, you are definitely correct that he’s not a “classical” Calvinist on the L part.
The first sermon in the Trial series from 1 Peter was all about election and foreknowledge. The sermon on Marriage and Men where he says, “Who the hell do you think you are!?!” has become one of my favorite sermons. I found his outrage both refreshing and challenging. Refreshing because few pastors express emotion appropriately. I used to like pastors that would yell a lot and when I went to this recent convention I realized that’s just the norm for preaching in the South. Southern pastors won’t stop yelling and exposing every vein in every inch of skin they’re showing while preachers anywhere else don’t seem to ever yell (that’s my experience anyway). It was challenging because Pastor Mark really does care about how men treat women and it challenges me to be the best man I can be. I and I think many men need wake up calls like this a lot more often than we get them from the pulpit.
Bob:
You should look into the Gospel. It’s good news for sinners. Of course, if your Gospel is the ultimate law verse- be perfect as God is perfect- you REALLY might want to look into the Gospel.
ms
We need to do more than attempt to defend or criticize our pastors. Accountability is a lot about protecting our leaders. Looking back at recent, actual leadership failures, at some point congregations failed to take part in the spiritual formation of their pastors: consuming rather than edifying. Christian leaders are not magically “anointed”; they are honed, molded, and shaped by the Holy Spirit through the church…or at least that’s the way it is supposed to work. Evangelicals still don’t have a good model for ecclesiology. Applying Mark 10:42-45 seems so difficult.
I think your statement from an earlier post still says it best; he is a “diamond in the rough”. But aren’t we all? We all need discipleship. We all need forgiveness. That process never ends. My prayer is that he doesn’t become another in a long line of throw-away pulpit idols. His best days of ministry are yet to come. I hope that is true for all of us (Philippians 3:13).
MD has described himself as a 4.5 point Calvinist before. His .5 point comes on the L. In the sermon series on Christ on the Cross he discussed Predestination as a part of this series and described his belief in “unlimited limited atonement”. Finally, I think his preaching tone and to an extent content will change a lot when his kids become teenagers and start to really challenge him.
You likely didn’t intend this post as humor, but it is in some ways. I checked in on the SBC doings via blogs, web cast, twitter. I was a bit embarrassed at the motion against him and happy it was ruled out of order. But the absolute funniest thing I have heard in a long time was the brother who made the motion to have “this Driscoll feller” come next year and speak for himself. Vintage SOUTHERN Baptist. My roots. We all need space. My prayer is God will mature Mark Driscoll into what He wants Driscoll to be. If not, then his gifting will surely carry him into very dangerous waters. Let’s pray for him, thank God for him, and see what God does with one his own.
What if you don’t like Driscoll because of his ridiculous condemnations of other Christians,[Mod edit] and not apologizing about it?
hi michael. this is the most balanced post on mark driscoll i’ve ever read. and i do appreciate the way you evaluated him and emphasizing his evangelistic zeal and honesty about his sin. he is one of the few who i believe lives out the gospel.
re his Calvinism. i once heard him say that he’s a 6-point calvinist. don’t know what he means. and i do think he’s also uncomfortable with the “L” in tulip.
i listened to the Advance audio. great insights. especailly the ministry idolatry. i got a kick of his joke…”young pastors sound weird when they try to sound like john piper…weirder when they dress like him” which is really great. sometimes, we all take ourselves too seriously.
have a blessed day!
alvin
IMonk,
You may have heard this already, but Johnny Hunt at the B21 conference reportedly said that the Mark Driscoll motions would be “thrown under the SBC bus.” And from my vantage point there were more people incensed that they were being made than were in agreement with them.
Also you said above, “If the SBC votes that Driscoll is bad, a few people feel better and Driscoll’s stuff sells 5% more than last month.”
Interestingly, I went to the LifeWay table where the Driscoll books were right after the motions were made. I went back an hour later and at least 4 were gone. That’s pretty good given that they were selling them at full price. I think just the mentioning of Driscoll in those motions have driven sales. Maybe someone should check Amazon.com’s bestseller list to see if he’s immediately rising.
Driscoll’s answering text messages on sex is a little ridiculous.
However, the guy is interested in real Christianity. His book Vintage Jesus is real doctrine. At least he’s not saying, “the Lord is telling/leading me to…”.
I find him fascinating yet also more orthodox than 90% of the pastor’s that I have known.
I have seen a few of his sermons. I was very impressed when he did an entire series on Doctrine with titles like: “Trinity” and “Justification”. I would love to see that at my church!
I just want him to tame his tongue. James 3.
I don’t have the foggiest notion of who Mark Driscoll is, but judging from the comments here, it sounds like he is actually doing something. If he were starting a back to bible basic church in my area, I think I would be obliged to help. And I’m as far from a calvinist as you can possibly get.
Regards
Good words Michael.
Not to contradict Alvin, but I have heard Driscoll claim to be a four and a half point Calvinist. Six pointers are usually considered to be Double-Predestinationists or Supralapsarian Calvinists, such as Piper or Sproll. Driscoll has by no means affirmed this type of Calvinism from my recollection. But he has dogmatically defended Irresistible Grace and Election numerous times in sermons (the illustration of one of his daughters almost running into rush hour traffic was one of his more known illustrations upon the subject).
Driscoll’s Calvinism is (I believe) something similar to my own, in that he is in reality an Amyraldian (not fully affirming the Limited Atonement point, but holding to a philosophical reckoning of it). Thus Driscoll considers himself in the Calvinist camp, gets offended when people knock it, but has no problem saying God loves all people–I just think he, like many other four and a half pointers do not believe God loves all people the same (some via Common Grace and others through Divine Election).
I’m not trying to start a big Calvinism debate, this is just my two cents as to where I believe Driscoll lands on the TULIP meter.
Cheers.
Please tell me “Preaching Illustrated” doesn’t have a swimsuit edition.
Never mind his theology – Freud could have a field day with his take on the Song.
Does anything this man says or does glorify Christ, or does he merely grab attention by appealing to the more vulgar elements of human nature?
According to Driscoll “If you’re thinking dirty, ladies, you can bet he’s happy”. Where is his scriptural foundation? Scripture adjures us toward purity of thought, towards a higher calling than our genitals.
Why is it that everything in this society – including the church – deals with sexuality and orientation.
I’m not a prude by any means (and yes, I do enjoy an active and interesting sex life), but let’s preach the gospel from the pulpit – a lot of people with good sex lives are being condemned to eternal death by our silence on the truly important issues of life!
Driscoll’s teaching should be confined to marital counseling, not preached from the pulpit.
I’ll be honest. My first impression of MD was that he is arrogant. Annoyingly so. I saw some clip. And then tuned him out for some time.
After a while, a friend of mine recommended his preaching podcast to me. She was particularly impressed by his Song of Solomon series. I tuned in to his preaching shortly after that and have been listening ever since. I confess. I judged him harshly and prematurely. While he probably will not ever write the book “Humility and How I Achieved It”, i think it is awesome to see somebody preached gospel centered reformed doctrine for 60 minutes to 20 somethings. If I lived in seattle i would go to his church. I really like that their music selection is not only weighted with classier songs, but not characterized by the plastic fake happy sugar-pop jimbee songs that are driving me Catholic. I think that too many of us evangelicals are so insecure that we are quick to criticize anybody who is more successful than us. I done it. I’ll admit it. “Life is just one beauty pageant after another.” It’s tempting to not really love or feel happy for the winners, whether or not they deserve it.
This blog is the only reason I have any clue whatsoever who Mark Driscoll is.
Dovetailing with #8 on your list, how much of the hooplah from SBC and others that get offended by Driscoll reflects a probelm with the offended rather than the offender? If the major issue is that he’s too earthy, I gotta wonder what bible the offended folks are reading.
While the term “vulgar” has come to mean “offensive in language,” its older and more precise meaning is “of or relating to the common people.” I think we could use more preachers that model that kind of vulgarity a la MD.
..can we talk about Michael Jackson now…..?
Preaching Illustrated 2009 Swimsuit issue came out last December.
Jan.- Piper in bear fur briefs (gets cold in Minnesota
Feb- Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes and Eddie Long in a see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil pose in celebration of Black history month.
March-Scottish born Alastair Begg in a shamefully green Shamrock suit one piece. Close as they could get for Irish born pastor.
April-Paige Patterson in Zebra striped classic Fred Flinstone inspired look. Actually made from Zebra PP killed.
May- Beth Moore in a classy traditional one piece with a wrap. This also is the cover for the outside of the calender. The reason she was chosen for the cover was so Lifeway could put it in their front display and women would feel comfortable buying it.
June- Mark Driscoll in UFC fighter shorts on his side in a octagon cage.
July- Joel Osteen laying on stomach in front of spinning globe smiling up at the camera with his chin propped up with his hands.
Aug- Melissa Scott (wife of late Dr. Gene Scott)in one of her old bathing suits from back in the day.
Sept- John MacArthur and Rick Warren together with Hawaiian inspired shorts and leis around there necks.
Oct- Dever, Mohler, and Mahaney rolling in leaves in honor of Reformation day
Nov- John Hagee in a pilgrim inspired suit with a turkey leg. Yes there are maps in the background.
Dec-Micheal Spencer only in a Santa hat with a Demi Moore Vanity fair pose.
Ok laugh or else.
Driscoll not only scares me in certain things, but he also is an inspiration too. At times, I just wish that pastors would try not to pull an act but just be honest with the congregation in preaching, post-service fellowship, etc.
Though his style prolly wouldn’t cut it anywhere else apart from where he’s at currently (definitely not at my current church). Still, the Lord uses a whole bunch of screw-ups (myself included) to spread the Gospel and further the Kingdom. THAT is a miracle in my books.
I think I’m going to go back and revisit his Song of Solomon series…
I read “a motion at the SBC” in #7, and immediately thought “You gotta be kidding me.”
Then I read “Banning Driscoll at Lifeway” in #9 and I thought “You gotta be kidding me” — except “kidding” wasn’t the actual word that went through my head.
Why don’t they just slap one of their patented “Read with Discernment” labels on his books? Then the sheeple will know that they need discernment to read Driscoll’s stuff (but not for Osteen’s stuff).
Frank Turk: I’m reading the meta here and I’m gonna go have to lie down.
Just wait til he gets back up and reads aaron’s comment.
Brendt Waters: It’s all on Youtube. Motions at SBC. The earliest one.
Hey, aaron, are any still available? I’d like at least 3; one for me and 2 to share.
I’d be willing to attempt a trade for a Catholic version. I’m sure that Martha and I can come up with it easily. As long as Pope Benedict with his red hat and the white fur is December’s. (GRIN)
Brendt, I had to laugh about your “Read with Deiscernment” stickers.
Anna, thanks. I’m clearly still not over that one.
Michael, thanks for the Youtube pointer.
I think.
Great thoughts here, Michael, and what I think is some very wise counsel (particularly point 10). Would you mind if I republished these on my blog?
go ahead
Ok… totally off topic…
While reading the local news in my community I came across this tidbit about a New Wine Harvest Church, formerly in an old Lutheran Church, haing bought an old social hall- drinking establishment:
“We tried the same thing where we are now,” the Rev. Huhn said. “We took out pews and made room for contemporary worship and a coffee bar on Saturday nights and jazz and blues nights, but the space was still a little confining for our vision.”
New Wine leaders plan to convert a downstairs room in the former social hall into a nursery and create a combination sanctuary and dance floor for “worship dance.”
Question is – What is worship dance? (I’m a Catholic and I guess I am a bit “worship challenged” once we get passed Liturgical services).
The controversy around Driscoll sounds a little like the controversy around Christopher West (although it’s more subdued in West’s case). Not familiar enough with Driscoll to really comment further.
Disclaimer – I’m coming from a place where I think actions and our words are way more important than having the perfect theology.
I have such mixed feelings about Driscoll. Mostly, I just feel very uncomfortable.
The good – being direct, real, and honest, creating space where some Seattle urbanites are more likely to want to learn about Jesus.
The problem – what is he really teaching them about the character of Jesus?
I went to a Seattle Mars Hill satellite church service once, and Driscoll was doing the preaching, via satellite of course.
In the space of less than half an hour, he put down Catholic Christians (I cannot remember for certain whether it was an attack on their salvation or their sincerity, but either way, very bad), he publicly castigated a couple of his own satellites, and essentially stated that all the ‘real’ men in Seattle were attending Mars Hill. Now, the rest of his message might have been a theological wonder, but I was way too horrified and distracted to care anymore.
From local news this last winter, one couple who lives way south near Portland did risk life and limb to drive up to his church service in snow conditions that were so bad authorities were begging people not to drive in it. Driscoll made a big point to hold them up as wonderful examples of dedication, while putting down those people in his church who had shown some common sense and stayed home.
So my concern has nothing to do with an occassional sermon that some might consider ‘out there’, or so called vulgar language.
My concern is what is he really teaching people, many of whom are new Christians , about the true character of Jesus and how we are to relate to others?
Driscoll wouldn’t be such a bad guy if he wasn’t a jerk.