Comments on: Where Is Church Discipline When You Need It? (Part 4): Does Church Discipline Always Look Like Church Discipline?

By: JK

JK — Fri, 01 May 2009 07:23:17 +0000

Brothers, as a dedicated tither and churchgoer I am deeply concerned by the failure of the modern church to fully discipline those in the congregation that are not working hard enough or making enough money as commanded by the Apostle Saint Paul. Paul commanded in the name of Jesus that those that do not spend day and night making money are to be outcast, they are to be publicly shamed and humiliated. We all know that Jesus spoke many times of a generation which would spend all it’s time buying and selling and building as commanded by the doctrine of Paul, yet there are those in the church that do not fully obey Pauline doctrine and that do not desire such a world. All sound doctrine is based around the holiness of work and the sanctity of money making, yet in this wicked time there are those that do not wish to make money. I now command you to reconsider your actions and have nothing to do with him that does not work enough or make enough money.

By: John

John — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 03:12:34 +0000

Love the discussion here. We have found developing deep relationships creates a safe place to share our struggles with others, but that means being vulnerable and overcoming our individualistic culture by trusting others with our hearts. Obviously that sets us up for the potential of serious hurt, but quite frankly the alternative is not an option. Discipline in the church is just like any other area: That is Satan doesn’t care which ditch we end up in as long as it isn’t the middle of the road. My heart goes out to any of you who have been hurt seriously in this way, but I encourage you to keep your courage and stick with what the Bible teaches. So often when we get hurt we want to say, “That didn’t work” and dismiss it, but in reality it’s fallen man who hasn’t lived it out properly that’s the problem. Lastly any kind of discipline seasoned with love and humility (remembering I make mistakes too) goes a long way towards winning the offender.

By: Lutheran Lucciola

Lutheran Lucciola — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:01:29 +0000

I enjoyed reading this too, and think Sam’s comments above also are pretty true. All in all, the church “discipline” subject seems to follow in with every day guidance and growth. To me at this point anyway.

By: Steve Scott

Steve Scott — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 04:58:02 +0000

I hate the term “church discipline” because even though the church isn’t mentioned until the third step, many think of the church as an institutionalized thing in the control of leaders so that the leaders should be involved in each step. Individuals and groups are mentioned by Jesus, not necessarily leaders. We all have responsibility.

Sam is right. Without community where all members are involved it is meaningless. Your list of questions would be a great start in examining how we all “do” discipline. Even excommunication is designed to turn a sinner back to God.

By: Teenage Mutant Ninja Tertullian

Teenage Mutant Ninja Tertullian — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 04:17:15 +0000

You paint a rather rosy picture of “church discipline” in which people are relieved, rather than ashamed or angered, to be made its objects. I suspect that your anecdotes are selective. Setting aside the vast theological defenses which you have erected its behalf, has “church discipline” ever actually worked so well? I suppose like anything else, its record will be mixed, but I wonder whether the negatives (intrusiveness, unfairness in application, etc.) might not outweigh the positives.

By: Patrick Lynch

Patrick Lynch — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:17:17 +0000

Steve, your comment gives me a clue, but I do wonder and worry about how we often fail institutionally at least to provide the same community for lapsed, post-, or strayed Christians, who are haunted by the ghosts of beliefs they’d rather be rid of and we’d rather try to resurrect..

By: JoanieD

JoanieD — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:09:28 +0000

Sam, those are very good points that you make. I agree with you.

And this was an excellent series, Michael. Thank you.

By: Glenda

Glenda — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:08:37 +0000

So often the assumption is that people don’t want to be disciplined — and given many definitions of discipline that makes sense. But some of us know we’re in a messy (sinful) place, but we don’t know the way out — or we just are tired from trying. We would love for someone to help us deal with wrong thoughts and behaviors — even if it’s only to encourage. But pastors seem too busy to meet with people on a weekly (or semi-weekly) basis, and members of the congregation don’t seem to think it’s their job. Rarely does anyone talk about anything much more important than the weather or the grandkids.

By: Steve

Steve — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:52:50 +0000

I hope it’s alright if I add an excerpt from Lauren Winner’s book “Real Sex”, where she responds to the notion that our personal morality and character is not anyone else’s business:

“But the Bible tells us to intrude — or rather, the Bible tells us that talking to one another about what is really going on in our lives is in fact not an intrusion at all, because what’s going on in my life is already your concern; by dint of the baptism that made me your sister, my joys are your joys and my crises are your crises. We are called to speak to one another lovingly, to be sure, and with edifying, rather than gossipy or hurtful, goals. But we are called nonetheless to transform seemingly private matters into communal matters.

Of course, premarital sexual behavior is just one of many instances of this larger point. Christians also need to speak courageously and transparently, for example, about the seemingly private matters of Christian marriage — there would be, I suspect, a lot fewer divorces in the church if married Christians exposed their domestic lives, their fights and tensions and squabbles, to loving wisdom, advice, and sometimes rebuke from their community. Christians might claim less credit card debt if small-group members shared their bank account statements with one another. I suspect that if my best friend had permission to scrutinize my Day-timer, I would inhabit time better.

Speaking to one another about our sexual selves is just one (admittedly risky) instance of a larger piece of Christian discipleship: being in community with each other.”

She goes on to make a point similar to what Sam said above – - that this can only occur in a context of ongoing community and friendship, so when it’s time to speak the truth, where the context of love has already been established.

By: j. Michael Jones

j. Michael Jones — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:47:01 +0000

I really like your hololistic view of Church discipline. Andy is a great metaphor. Do we also get to come in and lock ourselves up . . . when we are drunk? Anyway . . .

I sit near the back door of my Evangelical church . . . figuratively. I would have one or both feet out the door, however, my other ankle is secured to my wife’s . . . who sits comfortably in the middle of the church.

Our church has hemorrhaged members out the back door since I’ve been coming . . . but the new members (hemorrhaged from other churches) coming in the front door keeps it in a state of equilibrium.

Because of the recent exodus of several key members, some to no church, the pastor preached series on, “Why God Wants You in His Church . . . and Not Alone, or in the Emerging Church.” One of the main reasons, he gave, for not leaving was “church discipline.”

That struck me as odd because my craving for church discipline, the type that you were describing, is the VERY reason I have an ankle out the door in the first place. In this church it is a scandal to discuss anything personal . . . until it is a total disaster.

I voiced my opinion after one of our key church families suddenly (and to everyone’s shock) announced they were divorcing. I argued that the reason we didn’t see this coming was that we do not have any place to share candidly, and safely, within our church. The pastor’s outspoken mother, in frustration at my comments, said, “God’s church is no place to air your dirty laundry!”

It was about that time I cracked the back door.