Comments on: Where is Church Discipline When You Need It? Part 2: What does Matthew 18 Teach?

By: mamazee

mamazee — Sat, 16 May 2009 04:14:45 +0000

i have seen Matthew 18 done beautifully, both times with men who were in leadership of the church, representing us. Their wives went to them first, then friends with her, then the entire congregation. Scary. dramatic. But in both cases, marriages were restored, and eventually, the one pastor returned to ministry.

it is hard to do the first step, i think. i hate confronting people, but God put this in the Bible to encourage us to value love and relationship. Also, makes you rethink if you are actually “sinned against” if the first step is confronting the person on your own

By: Derek

Derek — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:36:35 +0000

My wife and I had some friends want to visit us a few years ago about something that they wanted to discuss with us. They asked us, to make things more comfortable, if they could ask an Elder of the body we were in at the time (we left, but for other reasons) to join us. Our response was, “a) Have we sinned against you? b) even if we have, can you tell us what Scripture says about having an elder present?” (we knew why they were coming, but even Matthew 18, as iMonk has reminded us here, it’s a personal matter on Step 1.).

So, they came over and shared what was on their minds. And no, we didn’t have a close “more than Sunday” relationship with them. So, after they left, we pretty much blew them off, but asked ourselves if it was really an issue. What they presented. It really is hard to take correction from someone you don’t see eye-to-eye with regularly… I’m still not sure we “sinned against them” but perhaps there were some personal disagreements, rubbing each other the wrong way, etc.

So, we called a closer friend of ours and asked him what he thought about the matter they brought to our attention. Brought us to tears. Not because we thought we were sinning, but because we were having an effect on people that we didn’t intend (or want).

I’m looking forward to seeing more on the topic, iMonk.

By: Thedisciple

Thedisciple — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:03:21 +0000

CD-Host,

I hope I did not come across as criticizing your blog. I think that admonishment should be a part of the discipline procedure. It would fall under the one-on-one interaction rather than public censure. Your site looks quite informative and when I get the chance to tackle the 150 posts I am sure it will teach me. Thanks for the work of ministry.

By: CD-Host

CD-Host — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:19:05 +0000

Thedisciple –

The church discipline blog is mine. There are about 150 posts so you might not have seen the stuff on admonishment, there isn’t much on it. The reason is that it is rarely part of a discipline procedure, though it can come in reconciliation procedures. Very few churches require sinners to “stand for a censure” where for example, the pastor castigates them for an act.

Generally what you calling admonishment happens in the first phase (when a single individual corrects another individual) or after the 4th phase. Some churches have “correction” as a very regular part of their process. Sovereign Grace (which I use frequently as an example of an abusive church) comes to mind.

What in particular were you looking for?

By: Thedisciple

Thedisciple — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:12:45 +0000

I think we must realize that we can’t go from overlooking the problem to excommunicating the unrepentant believer–in one quick swoop–not that anyone has suggested that. We don’t have to wait for the situation to develop into a crisis to act.

Believers, leaders and non-leaders, have a responsibility to each other not only to encourage one another to be strong but also to admonish one another when we start to get out of line. Note 1 Thes.5.14, admonishing them who are out of line.

Admonishing may sound odd in the USA where truth is relative and political correctness makes us sensitive to correcting others’ actions. Here are some guidelines from 1 Thes.
1. This is an action between believers–who have turned from idols to serve the true and living God 1:9. We don’t admonish non-believers for their sins.
2. These believers, for the most part, are growing in their faith 1:3.
3. The believers rely on the Word of God as their authority, their rule of faith–the standard we aim to live by. See the emphasis in chapter 1 and 2.
4. There is a concern for one another–they also pray for one another. Chapter 2-3
5. There is a concern for holiness, avoiding sexual sins. Chapter 4
6. There is a forward looking hope, in the return of Christ–that makes the struggle with the flesh and the world worth fighting. Chapter 4-5
7. This is a chuch which encourages each other, and has leadership which models encouragement and admonition. Chapter 5.
8. When we care for each other; when our relationships are more than hi/bye on SunAM; if we actually love the brothers and sisters, we are transparent in give and take relationships–then we can approach those who are messing up and put into their minds (admonish) the need to change their way in that particular situation.
9. Then, and only then, go to 2 Thes.3:11-15, can we take the next step of church discipline.
Skip the above steps if you don’t mind just playing at what it means to be church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.

Interesting, I went to that site mentioned in the comments of part 1, the one blog about church discipline, and noticed in the list of topics that admonish was not mentioned. See also Rom. 15:13-14 for some additional key information about admonishing.

By: C. Hays

C. Hays — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:31:31 +0000

I’m thinking that “Church Discipline” could have saved me from a hellish first marriage, and I was too proud and hard-hearted to accept the truth. When I married the first time at 21, our pastor didn’t want to perform the ceremony, as my fiance had been married before. I threw a little fit, and my mother (who didn’t want me to marry him either) begged him to reconsider, and … it’s easy to imagine the “rest” of the story.

CJH

By: Jeff M

Jeff M — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:55:02 +0000

iMonk,
I appreciate the fact that you pointed out the surrounding context of the Matthew 18 passage. It is interesting to me that it is immediately followed by Peter’s question about how many times we should forgive and the parable of the unforgiving servant. It is obvious that Jesus is steering us toward an understanding of forgiveness. Even if we cannot gain the understanding or repair the fellowship with the brother who wrongs us, we must still forgive them.

By: Jeff J

Jeff J — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:38:11 +0000

Let me propose an answer to Patrick’s question by going back to my point on community. Ideally, I am in a relationship within my church that allows for two or three folks to know that I am sinning and not dealing with it in a positive and repentant manner. Our relationship has been intenionally nurtured to the point where they can come to me with what they see, and I can be meek enough to listen. I think that it is incumbent upon church leadership to foster this type of environment. If I am not in a relationship like that and the elders have to be called in, then I believe that things can start to go wrong on a lot of different levels.

By: iMonk

iMonk — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:01:41 +0000

Patrick:

I think any member can speak to their brother about these matters, but I think the actual process of discipline needs to either involve those directly offended OR be a decision by the elders to act on account of the church.

By: pennyyak

pennyyak — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:31:27 +0000

Also Drew (thanks for the link), I like the speaker’s point that there are no guarantees about this process – this can be done, done well, and yet vindictive acts may occur, other members may leave the church etc. If a church is going to be willing to do this, then that seems an important aspect to understand.

Another difficulty related to church discipline might be some people’s reluctance to address spiritual matters that don’t feel good (some part cultural component, and probably cannot be separated from our humanness), unless that matter is personal conviction or repentance, in which case we anyway believe the outcome to be ultimately positive. If it doesn’t involve light and love and joy, forget it. Not that I see many comments on imonk reflecting that, but I certainly know (and have known) church members of this mind. Or maybe this has to do with excesses of preaching and teaching about how awful we all are, as helped shape my mother’s beliefs more in the line of “what I am not”, and “what I don’t do”.

All that being said, I also agree with the spirit of Ethan’s comments, that church discipline is divorced from Christ if not firmly in some framework of hope and compassion, prayer and reliance on the Holy Spirit. Really quite a fine line to walk for all of us who are terribly imperfect (not quite the same concept as truly awful).

Also, I would like to see a response to Patrick’s question. I think the answer is yes, but this subject’s a bit weighty for me.