That seems to be more of a general issue about whether mega churches should exist at all. And to some extent it boils down to how much you want small institutions acting mainly independently or tightly coordinated. I’m think that may be more of a what flavor of ice cream is better kind of question.

I’m sorry for your pain, I really am, but I have to stand with Rich on this one. Perhaps a clarification on how discipline ought to rightly work would help.

Let me first be clear, and then explain: in our church, if a member were to pursue a divorce for any reason that is not Scriptural, that member would almost certainly face church discipline. That may astound some readers, but the fact is that one of the leading reasons why the contemporary evangelical church is so anemic, and has such a high rate of divorce, is that churches weenie around this, and it ought to be as plain as the nose on our faces: when divorce takes place, church discipline of one or both parties ought to almost certainly take place. If there is a case of adultery, then the offending person ought to be brought before the elder leadership in order to be called to account. If adultery has not taken place, then the person pursuing the divorce ought to be called before church leadership. Now, I’m not getting into other issues in marriages; I just use these as examples. It is important to add, by the way, that our members must acknowledge that they understand our practice of church discipline, and submit themselves to the church’s leadership–including the possibility of discipline–as a condition of membership.

But what’s important to remember is that church discipline, undertaken properly, is always done in a spirit of loving concern, and always done for the purpose of reconciliation and restoration, never for the purpose of airing dirty laundry, or embarrassing anyone, or getting into anyone’s “private business”. Further, it’s not about “outsiders”: when a person voluntarily joins a church, he is placing himself under the authority of its leaders (or should be, if it’s taught correctly), as well as acknowledging that he is an “insider”, if you will, a functioning part of the body of Christ (that’s what “member” means). It’s about loving restoration; it’s about the integrity and testimony of the church; it’s about the glory of God and the name of Jesus Christ, and when it’s done correctly–and it can be done correctly, ’cause I’ve seen it–there isn’t any gratuitous airing of dirty laundry.

But for a church to fail in its responsibility to exercise appropriate, restorative discipline in such situations is to fail God, and if it comes to failing God or failing to suit people’s fancy, well, that’s not a hard call at all.

Rick Shipe

“If the church doesn’t do the painful and hard thing of stepping in to make the truth known than the church is essentially putting their arms around the offending parents at the expense of the children.”
My immediate response is unprintable for this site. So here’s something a bit watered down. This isn’t the only post I’m responding to; but its the most direct and egregious example. And yes I recognize your response only mentions small children; but you seem to want to apply this rule in all cases. And unless I am mistaken you (and definitely several others)seem to want discipline applied in public for everyone to see.

My parents (Seventh Day Adventists) divorced when I was seventeen. A good friend’s parents divorced a year or two later (unrelated). Both cases involved adultery; and in my case I was more than happy to see my father go; due to his verbablly abusive behavior towards me and disrespectful treatment of my mother.

I know in my friends’ case; the church elders and pastor threatened to call him on the carpet so to speak, in public, and reveal his behavior to the congregation if he didn’t mend his ways. The only reason this never came up with my parents is that they were much more private and I doubt many people at their church knew what was going on.

I was seriously angry at my father at the time. And rightly so. As my friend was at his father for similar behavior. But when my friend revealed his father’s treatment both of us were enraged.

And I can guarantee that if such nonsense had been used against my father I would have left the SDA church much earlier than I did. Because you see, having your families’ problems dragged out in public is not helpful. It doesn’t heal. It would have been humiliating. It would have been violating. Over a decade later, just the thought makes me want to vomit. But such things must not have have crossed your mind. Or the minds of several others in this thread who seem, for all the most ‘righteous’ of reasons, to want to drag other people’s behavior before the court of public opinion and church judgment.

If my father had been hitting me; or my friend’s father abusing him; would we have wanted our church to intervene? Absolutely. Just as we’d have wanted our teachers or other authority fitures to do something. But we’re not talking about child or spousal abuse. We’re talking about families’ breaking up. It happens and people have to deal with it. What they shouldn’t have to deal with is a whole group of outsiders shoving their way in and waving they’re pain in front of a group of people who presume the right to pass judgment on the lives of others.

Without sounding like I’m bragging, can I share a quick story? I pastored in PA for 13+ years, and a year ago, I returned for a Sunday there. During my pastorate, we had initiated church discipline against four members. One quit; one was removed from church membership (and a couple years later, repented), and two responded to the discipline with repentance, remaining in the church, though stepping out of leadership for a season of restoration. After I left church that day (the day I returned), I realized that all four of those individuals were present that day. I nearly cried, realizing that for all the screwups I’d made (and still make in my new pastorate!), it seems like we’d done a reasonably-good job of “hating the sin/loving the sinner” church discipline. It’s essential for a church to stake any claim to being a New Testament church, IMHO, and I’m enjoying the series.

In all fairness to the mega churches, some of them do an excellent job. Discipline is handled by the small church groups but the leaders have access to much more experienced pastors for advice. Moreover, the appeals process goes through large church committees. That means that mega churches can quite frequently offer some of the protections that Presbyterian structures offer in terms of due process.