<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Where have you gone, Thomas Merton?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:41:53 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-330032</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-330032</guid>
		<description>I was raised to never cry hypocrite in the church: mine own or anybody elses&#039;. Only God sees our hearts. We don&#039;t see someone else&#039;s heart. If someone tells me they are a Christian I take that at face value. It is not for me to judge. It is between that person and God.

Instead of finding what is wrong with someone else&#039;s tradition I suggest we do two things.
1. Tell me what you love about your tradition. How it speaks to you. Don&#039;t say anything about another tradition.

2. Ask yourself,&quot;Am I a Christian? Am I living it out in my life. Could anybody tell?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was raised to never cry hypocrite in the church: mine own or anybody elses&#8217;. Only God sees our hearts. We don&#8217;t see someone else&#8217;s heart. If someone tells me they are a Christian I take that at face value. It is not for me to judge. It is between that person and God.</p>
<p>Instead of finding what is wrong with someone else&#8217;s tradition I suggest we do two things.<br />
1. Tell me what you love about your tradition. How it speaks to you. Don&#8217;t say anything about another tradition.</p>
<p>2. Ask yourself,&#8221;Am I a Christian? Am I living it out in my life. Could anybody tell?&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Myrddin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-329338</link>
		<dc:creator>Myrddin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-329338</guid>
		<description>This is an excellent articulation of an emerging new threat to ecumenical gains. It has its corresponding phenomena on the Protestant side of things, but you are right to point to a real shift.

&lt;em&gt;“From what I have seen, in Catholic circles, Catholic membership and personal faith in Jesus Christ have little in common. The majority of the Catholic and Orthodox people I know believe almost nothing.”

Comments such as the above posted on this blog thread illustrate the need for Catholic apologists to be actively promoting what Catholicism is and who Catholics are.&lt;/em&gt;

And comments like that show a lack of the new Catholic apologists&#039; understanding of the far greater &#039;apologetic&#039; strength of someone like Merton or John Paul II. I wish more Catholics would understand that it&#039;s not things like &quot;Catholic Answers&quot; or convert-apologists that make the Catholic church attractive to Protestants. In fact, quite the contrary. It is things lik unity, liturgy, history, stability, devotion, sacrament and many other goods &lt;em&gt;left alone to their own witness&lt;/em&gt; that make Roman Catholicism attractive.

It&#039;s a shame. Where &lt;em&gt;have&lt;/em&gt; you gone Thomas Merton?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent articulation of an emerging new threat to ecumenical gains. It has its corresponding phenomena on the Protestant side of things, but you are right to point to a real shift.</p>
<p><em>“From what I have seen, in Catholic circles, Catholic membership and personal faith in Jesus Christ have little in common. The majority of the Catholic and Orthodox people I know believe almost nothing.”</p>
<p>Comments such as the above posted on this blog thread illustrate the need for Catholic apologists to be actively promoting what Catholicism is and who Catholics are.</em></p>
<p>And comments like that show a lack of the new Catholic apologists&#8217; understanding of the far greater &#8216;apologetic&#8217; strength of someone like Merton or John Paul II. I wish more Catholics would understand that it&#8217;s not things like &#8220;Catholic Answers&#8221; or convert-apologists that make the Catholic church attractive to Protestants. In fact, quite the contrary. It is things lik unity, liturgy, history, stability, devotion, sacrament and many other goods <em>left alone to their own witness</em> that make Roman Catholicism attractive.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a shame. Where <em>have</em> you gone Thomas Merton?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tiberjumper</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-189027</link>
		<dc:creator>tiberjumper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-189027</guid>
		<description>&quot;From what I have seen, in Catholic circles, Catholic membership and personal faith in Jesus Christ have little in common. The majority of the Catholic and Orthodox people I know believe almost nothing.&quot;

Comments such as the above posted on this blog thread 
illustrate the need for Catholic apologists to be actively promoting what Catholicism is and who Catholics are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;From what I have seen, in Catholic circles, Catholic membership and personal faith in Jesus Christ have little in common. The majority of the Catholic and Orthodox people I know believe almost nothing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Comments such as the above posted on this blog thread<br />
illustrate the need for Catholic apologists to be actively promoting what Catholicism is and who Catholics are.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tijefe</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-164396</link>
		<dc:creator>tijefe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-164396</guid>
		<description>To be honest, I don&#039;t see what&#039; so bad about different kinds of Christians trying to &quot;convert&quot; one another to their way of thinking. When two Christians have a disagreement on a certain point, obviously one or both of them are wrong. It behooves them to discuss it, and each should try to defend his or her belief in the face of the contrary belief, at least until that belief becomes untenable. If one of the parties is fed up with such discussions because he or she has already had them a million times and has firmly made up his or her mind, that doesn&#039;t mean he or she should expect never to have a 1,000,0001st such discussion. 

The fact that a Catholic and a Protestant (or Christians of any stripe) try to convert each other does not mean that each believes the other to be a non-Christian. And the mere fact that someone else is a Christian is not enough of a reason to disengage any attempt to bring that person over to one&#039;s own understanding of what is more true. 

The clincher here is that these kinds of discussions most fruitfully take place in the context of personal relationships in which love and respect can be assured, in which each party can see when it might be appropriate to back off. The wide-open and nearly anonymous Internet is very unsuitable for this kind of discussion. The Internet is very suitable for polemics, and it attracts polemicists and would-be experts of all kinds. Anyone who expounds a viewpoint on the Internet should take it as a matter of course that people will want to argue. 

If you don&#039;t want to argue with the Internet polemicists, it&#039;s best to just ignore them and go on saying what you have to say without regard to them, even if they are maligning you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, I don&#8217;t see what&#8217; so bad about different kinds of Christians trying to &#8220;convert&#8221; one another to their way of thinking. When two Christians have a disagreement on a certain point, obviously one or both of them are wrong. It behooves them to discuss it, and each should try to defend his or her belief in the face of the contrary belief, at least until that belief becomes untenable. If one of the parties is fed up with such discussions because he or she has already had them a million times and has firmly made up his or her mind, that doesn&#8217;t mean he or she should expect never to have a 1,000,0001st such discussion. </p>
<p>The fact that a Catholic and a Protestant (or Christians of any stripe) try to convert each other does not mean that each believes the other to be a non-Christian. And the mere fact that someone else is a Christian is not enough of a reason to disengage any attempt to bring that person over to one&#8217;s own understanding of what is more true. </p>
<p>The clincher here is that these kinds of discussions most fruitfully take place in the context of personal relationships in which love and respect can be assured, in which each party can see when it might be appropriate to back off. The wide-open and nearly anonymous Internet is very unsuitable for this kind of discussion. The Internet is very suitable for polemics, and it attracts polemicists and would-be experts of all kinds. Anyone who expounds a viewpoint on the Internet should take it as a matter of course that people will want to argue. </p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t want to argue with the Internet polemicists, it&#8217;s best to just ignore them and go on saying what you have to say without regard to them, even if they are maligning you.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-163241</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-163241</guid>
		<description>A rather preipheral point to your main argument, but I found the example you have a strange one. I would have taken the things that Thomas Merton observed in his first visit to a Roman Catholic Church as a criticism of the RCC rather than of Protestantism. It seemed to be an inversion of my understanding of Christian community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A rather preipheral point to your main argument, but I found the example you have a strange one. I would have taken the things that Thomas Merton observed in his first visit to a Roman Catholic Church as a criticism of the RCC rather than of Protestantism. It seemed to be an inversion of my understanding of Christian community.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jazzki</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-162761</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazzki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-162761</guid>
		<description>Josh S:  LMTO!

Nicholas:  Thanx 4 that.  Overall, theoretically, I can give what you wrote a hearty amen, tho except for the first paragraph, those things apply more to someone who gets to live a while longer after their conversion, wouldn&#039;t you say? :) 

Stated another way:  when I first put my faith in Christ, I had yet to read the Bible thru (which I promptly greedily did), so my &quot;doctrine&quot; was limited to knowing that God was holy (knew that in my bones somehow from childhood on---probably a case of ROMANS 1), and that thru His Lamb of God 4giveness, Jesus had opened the door for us to draw near to the Father. In the decades since, my understanding has increased exponentially (altho my trust is the same caliber as day one). Still, I contend that had I died the day after my conversion, I&#039;d have been saved just as much as now.  (Otherwise, if we can &quot;increase&quot; in justification, aren&#039;t we then in effect agreeing with Romanism?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh S:  LMTO!</p>
<p>Nicholas:  Thanx 4 that.  Overall, theoretically, I can give what you wrote a hearty amen, tho except for the first paragraph, those things apply more to someone who gets to live a while longer after their conversion, wouldn&#8217;t you say? <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Stated another way:  when I first put my faith in Christ, I had yet to read the Bible thru (which I promptly greedily did), so my &#8220;doctrine&#8221; was limited to knowing that God was holy (knew that in my bones somehow from childhood on&#8212;probably a case of ROMANS 1), and that thru His Lamb of God 4giveness, Jesus had opened the door for us to draw near to the Father. In the decades since, my understanding has increased exponentially (altho my trust is the same caliber as day one). Still, I contend that had I died the day after my conversion, I&#8217;d have been saved just as much as now.  (Otherwise, if we can &#8220;increase&#8221; in justification, aren&#8217;t we then in effect agreeing with Romanism?)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Memphis Aggie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-162041</link>
		<dc:creator>Memphis Aggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-162041</guid>
		<description>Sorry that should read &quot;here&quot; not &quot;hear&quot;.  I&#039;m forever making those phonetic errors</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry that should read &#8220;here&#8221; not &#8220;hear&#8221;.  I&#8217;m forever making those phonetic errors</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Memphis Aggie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-162036</link>
		<dc:creator>Memphis Aggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-162036</guid>
		<description>I notice that everybody (self  included) is swayed by the actions of a few individuals.  So as a Catholic my excesses may result in Michael putting Catholic teachings on the shelf out of reach.  Likewise I&#039;ve read  examples hear from other Churches and I have been influenced as well by the character of those I meet in a given denomination.

Is this a healthy practice?  Should I dismiss all of those (fill in your own blank here) just because the last one I met was such a jerk/hypocrite/etc?  Christ Himself said to do what the Pharisees said in temple, as long we avoid their hypocrisy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice that everybody (self  included) is swayed by the actions of a few individuals.  So as a Catholic my excesses may result in Michael putting Catholic teachings on the shelf out of reach.  Likewise I&#8217;ve read  examples hear from other Churches and I have been influenced as well by the character of those I meet in a given denomination.</p>
<p>Is this a healthy practice?  Should I dismiss all of those (fill in your own blank here) just because the last one I met was such a jerk/hypocrite/etc?  Christ Himself said to do what the Pharisees said in temple, as long we avoid their hypocrisy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nicholas Anton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-162025</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-162025</guid>
		<description>Jazzki

I will respond by repeating the conclusion of a paper I wrote a number of years ago;
It can be argued that a 200 horsepower tractor is a 200 horsepower tractor whether it has worked 20,000 hours or non at all.  It need not perform but must be capable of performing as designated.  But if that tractor never was capable of working to the designated data, no matter how it looks or sounds, it simply is not a 200 horsepower tractor.  
The four essential ingredients of saving faith are Truth, Knowledge, understanding and Trust.  It must contain Revelation, recognition, and response.  Saving faith must be based on Truth.  It must contain not only knowledge and rational assent to that Truth, but also volitional assent.  True faith is a change of allegiance.  To have true faith in God, one must have a correct view about the Father, the Son, Jesus, and The Spirit, believe that knowledge, be willing to trust that knowledge when that trust is required, and yield to the knowledge which one believes to be true (Saving faith ultimately is allegiance), both to the known and the unknown.  This will result in following Christ in baptism, in good works, and fellowshipping with other true believers.  Though these acts in themselves are not necessary to becoming a believer, nevertheless, they are not options for the believer either.  The emphasis was not that baptism would initiate faith but rather that a preceding faith would initiate baptism.  At the point of Salvation, Truth, the understanding of that Truth, the acknowledgement of that Truth, and salvific faith/trust in that Truth unite as one entity.  That is saving faith.
Abraham did not know where he was going, but trusted God and followed.  Moses did not totally know or understand what God required of him, but believed God and followed.  Rahab did not know much about the God of Israel but believed Him to be the Supreme God, and, because of it rejected her own people and followed God&#039;s people.  Likewise with Ruth.  One could go on and on.
I see little of this type of faith and resolve in contemporary nominal Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jazzki</p>
<p>I will respond by repeating the conclusion of a paper I wrote a number of years ago;<br />
It can be argued that a 200 horsepower tractor is a 200 horsepower tractor whether it has worked 20,000 hours or non at all.  It need not perform but must be capable of performing as designated.  But if that tractor never was capable of working to the designated data, no matter how it looks or sounds, it simply is not a 200 horsepower tractor.<br />
The four essential ingredients of saving faith are Truth, Knowledge, understanding and Trust.  It must contain Revelation, recognition, and response.  Saving faith must be based on Truth.  It must contain not only knowledge and rational assent to that Truth, but also volitional assent.  True faith is a change of allegiance.  To have true faith in God, one must have a correct view about the Father, the Son, Jesus, and The Spirit, believe that knowledge, be willing to trust that knowledge when that trust is required, and yield to the knowledge which one believes to be true (Saving faith ultimately is allegiance), both to the known and the unknown.  This will result in following Christ in baptism, in good works, and fellowshipping with other true believers.  Though these acts in themselves are not necessary to becoming a believer, nevertheless, they are not options for the believer either.  The emphasis was not that baptism would initiate faith but rather that a preceding faith would initiate baptism.  At the point of Salvation, Truth, the understanding of that Truth, the acknowledgement of that Truth, and salvific faith/trust in that Truth unite as one entity.  That is saving faith.<br />
Abraham did not know where he was going, but trusted God and followed.  Moses did not totally know or understand what God required of him, but believed God and followed.  Rahab did not know much about the God of Israel but believed Him to be the Supreme God, and, because of it rejected her own people and followed God&#8217;s people.  Likewise with Ruth.  One could go on and on.<br />
I see little of this type of faith and resolve in contemporary nominal Christians.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Josh S</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton/comment-page-1#comment-162022</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/where-have-you-gone-tommy-merton#comment-162022</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve found that Catholics don&#039;t try to convert you if they find you extremely irritating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve found that Catholics don&#8217;t try to convert you if they find you extremely irritating.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
