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	<title>Comments on: When All The Answers Weren&#8217;t In The Lecture</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-472882</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-472882</guid>
		<description>If I may weigh in on the meta topic:

Early in his senior year, my then 17 (now 18) year old son had a friend, best friend, who was fatally stabbed in a fight with a first cousin.  This death occurred on the Saturday before a long planned, and much needed, actual family vacation.  There was no question as to whether he was coming back from vacation for the funeral.  However, several things that I shared with him:

1.  There will be well meaning people who posit that all this happened for a reason.  However, there is no reason, we live in a fallen world and as much as we might like God to step in and remedy the injustices, He doesn&#039;t on a regular basis.  That is not to say that some good (and it has) come out of the situation, and that God might use that for His kingdom purposes, but there is no reason.

2.  I shared with him that I was honestly praying that the funeral might get delayed past the time of our vacation (with a homicide, I was hoping the investigation might linger enough.)  As a father, I desired from the bottom of my soul for nothing to interfere with the little time I had to spend with my kids that was not interrupted by school, and dinner, and TV, and xBox, etc.  However, the bottom line was he would be flying back early from the funeral, but that I wanted him to know that I was praying my own selfishness, not that I really thought that God would intervene and set the funeral date later, but that it was the only thing I could honestly offer in prayer (besides Grace and comforting for the family, b/c this was a boy who spent lots of time in our home).  

Interestingly, I found, that at least with a teenager, the thing they crave the most is sincerity, and I had nothing but sincerity to offer: I don&#039;t know why bad things happen, but I hope it doesn&#039;t interfere with my plans.  

Of course, the funeral was set for the Thursday of the week we planned to be gone, and I put him a plane to go back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may weigh in on the meta topic:</p>
<p>Early in his senior year, my then 17 (now 18) year old son had a friend, best friend, who was fatally stabbed in a fight with a first cousin.  This death occurred on the Saturday before a long planned, and much needed, actual family vacation.  There was no question as to whether he was coming back from vacation for the funeral.  However, several things that I shared with him:</p>
<p>1.  There will be well meaning people who posit that all this happened for a reason.  However, there is no reason, we live in a fallen world and as much as we might like God to step in and remedy the injustices, He doesn&#8217;t on a regular basis.  That is not to say that some good (and it has) come out of the situation, and that God might use that for His kingdom purposes, but there is no reason.</p>
<p>2.  I shared with him that I was honestly praying that the funeral might get delayed past the time of our vacation (with a homicide, I was hoping the investigation might linger enough.)  As a father, I desired from the bottom of my soul for nothing to interfere with the little time I had to spend with my kids that was not interrupted by school, and dinner, and TV, and xBox, etc.  However, the bottom line was he would be flying back early from the funeral, but that I wanted him to know that I was praying my own selfishness, not that I really thought that God would intervene and set the funeral date later, but that it was the only thing I could honestly offer in prayer (besides Grace and comforting for the family, b/c this was a boy who spent lots of time in our home).  </p>
<p>Interestingly, I found, that at least with a teenager, the thing they crave the most is sincerity, and I had nothing but sincerity to offer: I don&#8217;t know why bad things happen, but I hope it doesn&#8217;t interfere with my plans.  </p>
<p>Of course, the funeral was set for the Thursday of the week we planned to be gone, and I put him a plane to go back.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-467939</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 15:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-467939</guid>
		<description>If this was an issue when the bible was written it may have been addressed, but for the first 1900 plus years of our common history everyone already new the answer. Separating sexual union and life has brought fourth the ridiculous in a culture gone sex crazed, disorder begets disorder, a tree is known buy it&#039;s fruit. First the prevention of life in the womb, then the destruction of life in the womb. I think are perception of human sexuality is so fragmented that we have lost the ability to discern good and evil. What other systems in our body do we destroy when they a perfectly healthy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this was an issue when the bible was written it may have been addressed, but for the first 1900 plus years of our common history everyone already new the answer. Separating sexual union and life has brought fourth the ridiculous in a culture gone sex crazed, disorder begets disorder, a tree is known buy it&#8217;s fruit. First the prevention of life in the womb, then the destruction of life in the womb. I think are perception of human sexuality is so fragmented that we have lost the ability to discern good and evil. What other systems in our body do we destroy when they a perfectly healthy?</p>
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		<title>By: Ricky H</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-467636</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 10:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-467636</guid>
		<description>My friends and I have often talked about the (seemingly) widespread belief that pastors should have an answer for everything. What an awful burden to live under. Sometimes you&#039;ve just got to be able to say, &quot;I don&#039;t know.&quot;


As for the issue of having children: It bothers me that more Christians don&#039;t seriously consider adoption as an early option.

The whole be fruitful and multiply, chidren are a sign of God&#039;s favor (and other such thinking), is so Old Covenant. Isn&#039;t it? (And I&#039;m NOT implying children aren&#039;t a blessing.)

Israel had to keep populating from within. Israelites having Israelites. But the Church (spiritual Israel) is to grow from without -- through evangelization. In fact, adoption is kind of a theme in parts of the New Testament. Strangers become family -- the unrelated become relatives. We&#039;re told that following Christ might cause our biological families to reject us.

What if the near worship, among Christians, of having children is part of the problem in American Christendom? Too often a family seems to become such an insulated unit that it can too easily replace the sense of family that we are supposed to share with other believers. Perhaps more adoption would change some of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friends and I have often talked about the (seemingly) widespread belief that pastors should have an answer for everything. What an awful burden to live under. Sometimes you&#8217;ve just got to be able to say, &#8220;I don&#8217;t know.&#8221;</p>
<p>As for the issue of having children: It bothers me that more Christians don&#8217;t seriously consider adoption as an early option.</p>
<p>The whole be fruitful and multiply, chidren are a sign of God&#8217;s favor (and other such thinking), is so Old Covenant. Isn&#8217;t it? (And I&#8217;m NOT implying children aren&#8217;t a blessing.)</p>
<p>Israel had to keep populating from within. Israelites having Israelites. But the Church (spiritual Israel) is to grow from without &#8212; through evangelization. In fact, adoption is kind of a theme in parts of the New Testament. Strangers become family &#8212; the unrelated become relatives. We&#8217;re told that following Christ might cause our biological families to reject us.</p>
<p>What if the near worship, among Christians, of having children is part of the problem in American Christendom? Too often a family seems to become such an insulated unit that it can too easily replace the sense of family that we are supposed to share with other believers. Perhaps more adoption would change some of that.</p>
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		<title>By: susan</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-467090</link>
		<dc:creator>susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 23:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-467090</guid>
		<description>The situation you start with (husband/wife unable to agree on whether to have more kids) was the situation of a couple who led a Bible study I was in ages ago. They sought counsel on the matter, and told the counselor that they were praying and praying for God to reveal His will to them, but so far, nada. Their counselor bluntly told them not to bother praying any more: their dilemma would be resolved whenever one of them sacrificed his or her own desire and submitted to the desire of his or her spouse. 

That story always made me laugh. Praying for the special revelation of God&#039;s will sounds so spiritual, doesn&#039;t it? Turns out that living a life that pleases God is less about finding the answers and more about actually following Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation you start with (husband/wife unable to agree on whether to have more kids) was the situation of a couple who led a Bible study I was in ages ago. They sought counsel on the matter, and told the counselor that they were praying and praying for God to reveal His will to them, but so far, nada. Their counselor bluntly told them not to bother praying any more: their dilemma would be resolved whenever one of them sacrificed his or her own desire and submitted to the desire of his or her spouse. </p>
<p>That story always made me laugh. Praying for the special revelation of God&#8217;s will sounds so spiritual, doesn&#8217;t it? Turns out that living a life that pleases God is less about finding the answers and more about actually following Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-466328</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 05:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-466328</guid>
		<description>&quot;If these topics were taken on with this amount of candor in our churches, I think there would be far fewer leaving via the backdoor.&quot;

But many might start leaving via the front door. In my church challenges of the last few years my small group has discovered that many folks want an answer to every question. And they gravitate to churches and pastors that are willing to give them certainty to almost all or even all questions. It basically ran a group of us out of a church as we didn&#039;t agree and the strife level we were causing grew too extreme.

Just one small example. High school kids are taught that you should approach all non Christians with NT bible verses. Period. My daughter argued the point for a while then just shut up. Should she interact with non Christians and have them as friends or treat them as people needed NT lectures?

It goes on and on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If these topics were taken on with this amount of candor in our churches, I think there would be far fewer leaving via the backdoor.&#8221;</p>
<p>But many might start leaving via the front door. In my church challenges of the last few years my small group has discovered that many folks want an answer to every question. And they gravitate to churches and pastors that are willing to give them certainty to almost all or even all questions. It basically ran a group of us out of a church as we didn&#8217;t agree and the strife level we were causing grew too extreme.</p>
<p>Just one small example. High school kids are taught that you should approach all non Christians with NT bible verses. Period. My daughter argued the point for a while then just shut up. Should she interact with non Christians and have them as friends or treat them as people needed NT lectures?</p>
<p>It goes on and on.</p>
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		<title>By: Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-466090</link>
		<dc:creator>Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 02:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-466090</guid>
		<description>j. Michael Jones,

My apologies, your response makes my answer sound kind of trite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>j. Michael Jones,</p>
<p>My apologies, your response makes my answer sound kind of trite.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-465882</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 20:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-465882</guid>
		<description>Michael, I agree with everything you wrote.  

As to the direct question, my husband and I disagreed about our desired number of kids. He deferred to me (and we both believed strongly in God being the one in control, ultimately). We had one more (bringing our total to three). I wanted more and probably would have pushed for it, but God allowed a health crisis in my life that has now prevented me from bearing more children. Clearly, God agreed with my husband. :) So, you just never know how these things are going to turn out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I agree with everything you wrote.  </p>
<p>As to the direct question, my husband and I disagreed about our desired number of kids. He deferred to me (and we both believed strongly in God being the one in control, ultimately). We had one more (bringing our total to three). I wanted more and probably would have pushed for it, but God allowed a health crisis in my life that has now prevented me from bearing more children. Clearly, God agreed with my husband. <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  So, you just never know how these things are going to turn out.</p>
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		<title>By: j. Michael Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-465873</link>
		<dc:creator>j. Michael Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 19:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-465873</guid>
		<description>I thought I would come back and address the specific question, which was raised on BHT. I know others have done the same.

My wife and I faced the same dilemma a number of years ago. The way that we resolved it wasn’t pretty . . . and would not make any James Dobson book (except maybe as a bad example), but I think it was realistic.

We had been through seven pregnancies in ten years with five healthy children (including one with ADD). I was the sole bread winner and working hard, plus I was trying to take the kids off my wife’s hands as soon as I got home form work each night (she was working very hard at home including home schooling the older kids and our ADD son was driving her crazy). I personally felt like I was near total exhaustion and I wanted to take a “break” from having children.

My wife was really into a Christian author Mary (somebody?) who advocated only allowing “God to close the womb.”  (BTW, this author also advocated the “missionary position” as the only God-ordained one and a dirty house, one with flies, allows Satan’s stronghold over a family, etc.).

In the weeks after my last child was born, my wife and I had many long discussions but were at an impasse.  She refused all birth control methods (save abstinence) because she believed this is what God wanted. I felt like I was near a mental breakdown and I felt very strongly that I needed a break.

So how did we resolve it? I eventually went out and had myself neutered (or was it spayed . . . I always forget) against her will.

So, if you presented our case to a group of hard-core (precise answer for everything) Evangelicals, they could deconstruct our situation several ways. A) I wasn’t loving. B) My wife was not submissive, C) I did not trust God, D) My wife wasn’t loving to me. Pay your money and take your choice. Maybe it is “All the above.”

But my point is that life doesn’t always work itself out in neat little solutions that would make it as Hallmark movie of the week.

I’ve had some regrets. I mean if we could have found some temporary measure, I was ready to have kids again after about 3-4 years. I even considered being de-neutered (or was it de-spayed?) Our marriage survived fine, but this was one of the top 5 difficulties that we have ever faced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought I would come back and address the specific question, which was raised on BHT. I know others have done the same.</p>
<p>My wife and I faced the same dilemma a number of years ago. The way that we resolved it wasn’t pretty . . . and would not make any James Dobson book (except maybe as a bad example), but I think it was realistic.</p>
<p>We had been through seven pregnancies in ten years with five healthy children (including one with ADD). I was the sole bread winner and working hard, plus I was trying to take the kids off my wife’s hands as soon as I got home form work each night (she was working very hard at home including home schooling the older kids and our ADD son was driving her crazy). I personally felt like I was near total exhaustion and I wanted to take a “break” from having children.</p>
<p>My wife was really into a Christian author Mary (somebody?) who advocated only allowing “God to close the womb.”  (BTW, this author also advocated the “missionary position” as the only God-ordained one and a dirty house, one with flies, allows Satan’s stronghold over a family, etc.).</p>
<p>In the weeks after my last child was born, my wife and I had many long discussions but were at an impasse.  She refused all birth control methods (save abstinence) because she believed this is what God wanted. I felt like I was near a mental breakdown and I felt very strongly that I needed a break.</p>
<p>So how did we resolve it? I eventually went out and had myself neutered (or was it spayed . . . I always forget) against her will.</p>
<p>So, if you presented our case to a group of hard-core (precise answer for everything) Evangelicals, they could deconstruct our situation several ways. A) I wasn’t loving. B) My wife was not submissive, C) I did not trust God, D) My wife wasn’t loving to me. Pay your money and take your choice. Maybe it is “All the above.”</p>
<p>But my point is that life doesn’t always work itself out in neat little solutions that would make it as Hallmark movie of the week.</p>
<p>I’ve had some regrets. I mean if we could have found some temporary measure, I was ready to have kids again after about 3-4 years. I even considered being de-neutered (or was it de-spayed?) Our marriage survived fine, but this was one of the top 5 difficulties that we have ever faced.</p>
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		<title>By: j. Michael Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-465826</link>
		<dc:creator>j. Michael Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 18:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-465826</guid>
		<description>This is a great conversation and comments. If these topics were taken on with this amount of candor in our churches, I think there would be far fewer leaving via the backdoor. These are real-life questions, messy and without clear answers.

Can God be sovereign without being a micro-manager? I think so. Take verses like this from Luke 12:

“ 4&quot;I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don&#039;t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.”

You have to “tweak” them to make them say that God decides which hair (or in my case, hairs) falls out today or that God controls exactly which worm the sparrow eats and at what time.

A wise old man once told me (and I was offended by this at the time) the following regarding Christian decision making; “It’s when you quickly decide what you want to do, for a variety of reasons, and then spend a huge amount of energy twisting verses, counsel and finding signs to support the decisions that you’ve already made in your heart.

When I was 20, I could quickly decide that I wanted to go to a Christian conference (that cost a lot of money, which I didn’t have) because there was a hot Christian chick going and I wanted to get to know her better. Then I would spend a week or two proving that it was “What God wanted,” by finding a sign in a quiet time Bible verse. I just wish I could have been honest about it at the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great conversation and comments. If these topics were taken on with this amount of candor in our churches, I think there would be far fewer leaving via the backdoor. These are real-life questions, messy and without clear answers.</p>
<p>Can God be sovereign without being a micro-manager? I think so. Take verses like this from <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Luke+12" class="bibleref" title="ESV Luke 12">Luke 12</a>:</p>
<p>“ 4&#8243;I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don&#8217;t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.”</p>
<p>You have to “tweak” them to make them say that God decides which hair (or in my case, hairs) falls out today or that God controls exactly which worm the sparrow eats and at what time.</p>
<p>A wise old man once told me (and I was offended by this at the time) the following regarding Christian decision making; “It’s when you quickly decide what you want to do, for a variety of reasons, and then spend a huge amount of energy twisting verses, counsel and finding signs to support the decisions that you’ve already made in your heart.</p>
<p>When I was 20, I could quickly decide that I wanted to go to a Christian conference (that cost a lot of money, which I didn’t have) because there was a hot Christian chick going and I wanted to get to know her better. Then I would spend a week or two proving that it was “What God wanted,” by finding a sign in a quiet time Bible verse. I just wish I could have been honest about it at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/when-all-the-answers-werent-in-the-lecture/comment-page-1#comment-465818</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 17:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3230#comment-465818</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One of the aspects of “popular” Christianity that I really struggle with is the belief that the Bible has an authoritative pronouncement on everything. I simply do not believe that. In fact, the pursuit of that assumption has, in my opinion, some particularly bad consequences.&lt;/i&gt;

At the very least, it makes Christians look like buffoons, with a glib quote for every occasion like Seinfeld&#039;s ironic quips.

(Flashback to a Sixties cartoon called &lt;i&gt;Go Go Gophers&lt;/i&gt;; one character, a &quot;Colonel Kit Coyote&quot;, responded to any &amp; every situation by pulling out a Book of Army Regulations and quoting it chapter-and-verse in a Theodore Roosevelt voice.  Normally against the advice of his experienced noncom sidekick.  He always got his head handed to him by the end of the cartoon.)

And in a much more grim analogy, it makes Christians look like comic-opera Communists duckspeaking The Party Line, Comrades.  Increase Political Consciousness and Purge the Counterrevolutionaries.

When you&#039;re hurting, the LAST thing you need is The Party Line, Comrade, doubleplusduckspeaked by someone who obviously has never been hurt himself.  Or if he has, won&#039;t ever admit to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>One of the aspects of “popular” Christianity that I really struggle with is the belief that the Bible has an authoritative pronouncement on everything. I simply do not believe that. In fact, the pursuit of that assumption has, in my opinion, some particularly bad consequences.</i></p>
<p>At the very least, it makes Christians look like buffoons, with a glib quote for every occasion like Seinfeld&#8217;s ironic quips.</p>
<p>(Flashback to a Sixties cartoon called <i>Go Go Gophers</i>; one character, a &#8220;Colonel Kit Coyote&#8221;, responded to any &amp; every situation by pulling out a Book of Army Regulations and quoting it chapter-and-verse in a Theodore Roosevelt voice.  Normally against the advice of his experienced noncom sidekick.  He always got his head handed to him by the end of the cartoon.)</p>
<p>And in a much more grim analogy, it makes Christians look like comic-opera Communists duckspeaking The Party Line, Comrades.  Increase Political Consciousness and Purge the Counterrevolutionaries.</p>
<p>When you&#8217;re hurting, the LAST thing you need is The Party Line, Comrade, doubleplusduckspeaked by someone who obviously has never been hurt himself.  Or if he has, won&#8217;t ever admit to it.</p>
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