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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s Really Going On In San Diego?</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Kenny Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-474494</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/biblestudy.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/biblestudy.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/biblestudy.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: duane dunham</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-474440</link>
		<dc:creator>duane dunham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For years I have been attending to see and/or officiate high school sports. Often the near neighbors are inundated with cars parked at curbs, cul de sacs, etc. for the games.  I have not heard of any serious complaints by them.  But the difference seems to be that these events are seasonal, not every week forever, so maybe alternating homes is best answer if #8 fails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For years I have been attending to see and/or officiate high school sports. Often the near neighbors are inundated with cars parked at curbs, cul de sacs, etc. for the games.  I have not heard of any serious complaints by them.  But the difference seems to be that these events are seasonal, not every week forever, so maybe alternating homes is best answer if #8 fails.</p>
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		<title>By: Some Dantean Thoughts from Internet Monk &#124; Hardly the Last Word</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-472887</link>
		<dc:creator>Some Dantean Thoughts from Internet Monk &#124; Hardly the Last Word</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-472887</guid>
		<description>[...] post that advises Christians, in lieu of going to various lobbying and litigation groups, to talk to their neighbors.  Good stuff.]        Categories: Other Blogs   Posted By: ngilmour Last Edit: 01 Jun 2009 @ 12 00 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post that advises Christians, in lieu of going to various lobbying and litigation groups, to talk to their neighbors.  Good stuff.]        Categories: Other Blogs   Posted By: ngilmour Last Edit: 01 Jun 2009 @ 12 00 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: brad wright</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-472353</link>
		<dc:creator>brad wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Interesting thoughts... thanks for the clarification.

I suppose that the key issue is whether or not the group was treated differently because they were a religious group.  Probably not, but not something that we&#039;ll know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thoughts&#8230; thanks for the clarification.</p>
<p>I suppose that the key issue is whether or not the group was treated differently because they were a religious group.  Probably not, but not something that we&#8217;ll know.</p>
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		<title>By: Musings for a Monday Morning &#124; Cerulean Sanctum</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-471893</link>
		<dc:creator>Musings for a Monday Morning &#124; Cerulean Sanctum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-471893</guid>
		<description>[...] Risking brickbats and charges of heresy, the iMonk wonders if something is lost by being too God-centered. He also weighs in on the above San Diego Bible study issue. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Risking brickbats and charges of heresy, the iMonk wonders if something is lost by being too God-centered. He also weighs in on the above San Diego Bible study issue. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pam</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-471873</link>
		<dc:creator>Pam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-471873</guid>
		<description>Preach it, brother.  Time for people to use their Christianity to build bridges instead of using it as a leg to stand on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preach it, brother.  Time for people to use their Christianity to build bridges instead of using it as a leg to stand on.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-471534</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 06:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-471534</guid>
		<description>#8 talking to the neighbor is a great idea, but it won&#039;t make a difference at this point.  Once a government agency has investigated and issued a finding of (in their opinion) zoning non-compliance, they cannot ignore it even if the neighbor withdraws his complaint... otherwise, they would be weakening zoning enforcement on a wide variety of issues through out the city.  The bell cannot be un-rung.  It must resolve through the legal processes established for land use.

I have a friend who established a no-cost, after-school tutoring program in his backyard, as part of an inner-city ministry.  Technically, the zoning code classified it as day-care, a use that was not allowed in his zone.  The city was sympathetic and said that as long as no complaints were received, they could look the other way.  This worked for about 5 years, then a neighbor complained about the traffic.  The city reluctantly shut down the program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#8 talking to the neighbor is a great idea, but it won&#8217;t make a difference at this point.  Once a government agency has investigated and issued a finding of (in their opinion) zoning non-compliance, they cannot ignore it even if the neighbor withdraws his complaint&#8230; otherwise, they would be weakening zoning enforcement on a wide variety of issues through out the city.  The bell cannot be un-rung.  It must resolve through the legal processes established for land use.</p>
<p>I have a friend who established a no-cost, after-school tutoring program in his backyard, as part of an inner-city ministry.  Technically, the zoning code classified it as day-care, a use that was not allowed in his zone.  The city was sympathetic and said that as long as no complaints were received, they could look the other way.  This worked for about 5 years, then a neighbor complained about the traffic.  The city reluctantly shut down the program.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Long</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-470933</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Long</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 18:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-470933</guid>
		<description>From &quot;County Won&#039;t Force Permit on Bible Study Leaders&quot; (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/?metro&amp;zIndex=108046)

Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.

“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.

Chandra Wallar, the county&#039;s general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don&#039;t need a permit after all.

Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”

Wallar said that definition, which doesn&#039;t spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.

She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.

“We&#039;ve advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he&#039;s held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”

Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.

In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.

“We&#039;re in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.

“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold &#039;Em, Mommy and Me, &#039;Monday Night Football,&#039; Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They&#039;re trying to take that away. We&#039;re not going to let it go.”

Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.

“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.

Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law &amp; Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.

“Even though the county is saying it&#039;s about traffic and parking, it&#039;s a fake issue. It&#039;s a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.

According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say &#039;amen?&#039; ” “Do you say &#039;praise the Lord?&#039; ”

Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.

“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.

Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.

“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From &#8220;County Won&#8217;t Force Permit on Bible Study Leaders&#8221; (<a href="http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/?metro&amp;zIndex=108046" rel="nofollow">http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/?metro&amp;zIndex=108046</a>)</p>
<p>Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.</p>
<p>“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.</p>
<p>Chandra Wallar, the county&#8217;s general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don&#8217;t need a permit after all.</p>
<p>Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”</p>
<p>Wallar said that definition, which doesn&#8217;t spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.</p>
<p>She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.</p>
<p>“We&#8217;ve advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he&#8217;s held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”</p>
<p>Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.</p>
<p>In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.</p>
<p>“We&#8217;re in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.</p>
<p>“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold &#8216;Em, Mommy and Me, &#8216;Monday Night Football,&#8217; Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They&#8217;re trying to take that away. We&#8217;re not going to let it go.”</p>
<p>Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.</p>
<p>“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.</p>
<p>Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law &amp; Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.</p>
<p>“Even though the county is saying it&#8217;s about traffic and parking, it&#8217;s a fake issue. It&#8217;s a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.</p>
<p>According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say &#8216;amen?&#8217; ” “Do you say &#8216;praise the Lord?&#8217; ”</p>
<p>Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.</p>
<p>“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.</p>
<p>Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.</p>
<p>“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-470804</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 14:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-470804</guid>
		<description>Interestingly, this news story struck a cord with me as a pastor. Why? Because in trying to help another churches start home Bible Studies, cell groups, and home churches in some of the areas where fellow churches are located we have met the same county, city, and community hassle. They went door-to-door handing out fliers and answering any questions. They went to the county, the local boards, neighborhood associations, and city... and guess what? Everything was fine until one neighbor complained.

Then all of sudden they needed parking permits, county codes might be broken, they might need to get a zoning permit, a building use permit. Then came the questions: Why were they meeting together? What kind of organization was this? What materials did they use in the study? Were children adequately taken care of? Do you have the proper childcare certification? Are you exceeding fire codes? Each concern was patiently answered and explained, and they went back to the county, the neighborhood association, to each neighbor -- even the one who complained and would not admit he did -- and... it turned out that no zoning laws were being broken, no permits were needed, and only one neighbor complained. And guess why they complained? They did not want &quot;Bible Thumpers&quot; (his words) &quot;in my neighborhood upsetting my children.&quot; Huh? It took over a year of hassles to finally get to the truth from the County. And some actual fees were paid that did not need to be and yet were never refunded. That was several years ago and the Bible Studies are now going on all over the area.

There are neighborhoods and suburbs in our area that actually have written in their neighborhood association codes that no Bible studies or home churches can be done in homes in their areas. Some housing tracts even restrict where churches can be built.

Just so you know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly, this news story struck a cord with me as a pastor. Why? Because in trying to help another churches start home Bible Studies, cell groups, and home churches in some of the areas where fellow churches are located we have met the same county, city, and community hassle. They went door-to-door handing out fliers and answering any questions. They went to the county, the local boards, neighborhood associations, and city&#8230; and guess what? Everything was fine until one neighbor complained.</p>
<p>Then all of sudden they needed parking permits, county codes might be broken, they might need to get a zoning permit, a building use permit. Then came the questions: Why were they meeting together? What kind of organization was this? What materials did they use in the study? Were children adequately taken care of? Do you have the proper childcare certification? Are you exceeding fire codes? Each concern was patiently answered and explained, and they went back to the county, the neighborhood association, to each neighbor &#8212; even the one who complained and would not admit he did &#8212; and&#8230; it turned out that no zoning laws were being broken, no permits were needed, and only one neighbor complained. And guess why they complained? They did not want &#8220;Bible Thumpers&#8221; (his words) &#8220;in my neighborhood upsetting my children.&#8221; Huh? It took over a year of hassles to finally get to the truth from the County. And some actual fees were paid that did not need to be and yet were never refunded. That was several years ago and the Bible Studies are now going on all over the area.</p>
<p>There are neighborhoods and suburbs in our area that actually have written in their neighborhood association codes that no Bible studies or home churches can be done in homes in their areas. Some housing tracts even restrict where churches can be built.</p>
<p>Just so you know&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MAJ Rowe</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-really-going-on-in-san-diego/comment-page-2#comment-470746</link>
		<dc:creator>MAJ Rowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 13:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3284#comment-470746</guid>
		<description>#5 and #8 are spot on. What I want to know is how many of the anti-evangelical smart a** bloggers who wrote in with some derogatory remark about those zealous to find an offense against Christians understand that there are no perfect Christians and making derogatory remarks about them or any other group is gossip and that is sin.

1 Timothy 5:13 states, &quot;Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.&quot; 

Would it proper to replace &quot;house&quot; with &quot;blog&quot;?

Your rants are no worse than their rants. How well do you know your neighbor? How often do have casual conversation, show concern, etc?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#5 and #8 are spot on. What I want to know is how many of the anti-evangelical smart a** bloggers who wrote in with some derogatory remark about those zealous to find an offense against Christians understand that there are no perfect Christians and making derogatory remarks about them or any other group is gossip and that is sin.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Timothy+5%3A13" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Timothy 5:13">1 Timothy 5:13</a> states, &#8220;Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.&#8221; </p>
<p>Would it proper to replace &#8220;house&#8221; with &#8220;blog&#8221;?</p>
<p>Your rants are no worse than their rants. How well do you know your neighbor? How often do have casual conversation, show concern, etc?</p>
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