I can’t imagine there’s many Christians who support sexual or other abuses in the church–that’s kind of a no-brainer. That’s not what I’m reading in your post, however. I get the sense that perhaps you’re weary of traditional worship, or Christians who pay lip service to faith they don’t apply in their every day life–and blaming that on The Institution. Why is that the fault of the community rather than the individual? The statement I find confusing in your post involves the friend leaving the church because he felt he wasn’t allowed to perform exorcisms. Why did you feel angry because he was leaving and you were staying?

I don’t think I’m necessarily misunderstanding your post (but I did read it and the comments again, just to make sure :-)) . It just seems like in my experience, people who leave The Institution (or claim a belief in God but don’t attend church because they don’t like institutions) are not as interested in spiritual truths and making a passionate stand for Jesus’s values as they are in wanting to make up their own version of the Gospel. Perhaps you’re luckier to live in a neck of the woods where people are more passionate about their beliefs.

I agree with the statement made by the new president of the Southern Baptists–I think many of our main stream denominational churches will not exist in the coming decades. We’re seeing that in a major way in the pcusa, but unfortunately (and again, perhaps this is a regional problem) it has to do with a generation more interested in recreational activities for their kids (an type of institution that can be just as controlling as a church, I might add) than worship on Sunday morning.

As you’re probably aware, we’ve had quite a bit of this “leaving the institutional church” in the PCUSA over the issue of gay ordination–but it’s almost the reverse of what you’re talking about. What I consider The Institution (older, traditional, conservative members) are breaking away to form their own congregational-governed churches where gay ordination (and, gasp!, women elders and ministers) won’t even be discussed.

Through all this, I’m agreeing with your point that the church (ie: church people) need to be open to new ways God leads–and that there is no perfect church.

I think you are misreading this post and this discussion. I don’t often say that, but in this case, I feel it’s true.

No one is asking everyone to leave every church. As Protestants, we have the privilege of being able to say that our churches can be wrong, and if leaders repent of what is wrong, things can change.

If the sin in the institution is evil enough, the only RIGHT thing to do is leave. Sexual abuse, for example, or many other kinds of abuse and exploitation.

Clearly, some institutions need and deserve our loyalty. Others should be abandoned.

It’s not cowardly to leave an abusive or immoral situation.

peace

MS

I agree wholeheartedly that church people often do not reflect the principles of faith that Christ taught. But Christ also established a church (a community, an institution) and did not intend for people to worship and live in isolation and practice faith for their own sakes.

Isn’t it reverse prejudice when we pack our bags and leave a church because “those people just aren’t as righteous as I am?” That’s the coward’s way–when you’re not willing to take a stand against the institution with clear and concise arguments about why their attitude doesn’t reflect the Gospel.

Another problem with institutions is when membership is equated with hiding behind stone walls of right-ness (not righteousness), worshipping the formulas of perfect faith rather than practicing it.

I am bewildered by the comparatively silent response from within evangelical circles to the shootings in a Knoxville Universalist church, by a murderer who found their views too liberal. People gathered to seek truth were murdered. Debate the wrongness of the answers found in their church all you want, but the ramifications are chilling. This is more than the freedom of religion or defending institutions; freedom itself is at stake. If freedom only belongs to those who agree with us, then none of us are free. For that reason alone, we should stand with that congregation and pray for them. An even better reason is because the victims were our neighbors, created in the image of God. By God’s grace, we need to be good samaritans, not self-absorbed Levites.

Freedom is not believing what you are told at the end of a gun or the tip of a boot. Did WW II teach us nothing?

One of my concerns in writing this post is the response I’ve gotten from people who are defending the institutional church to the point they can’t read their own Bible (the Prophets!) and hear the critique of the institutions as sources of oppression, idolatry and sin.

The movement and the community are of more value than the institutional forms of either. The Bible critiques EVERY institution: religious, civic, cultural. Defending them is evidence that the culture war has shaped our mindset to be more “conservative” than Christian imo.

>If we don’t believe our churches reflect Christ’s teachings, that is the fault of the people, not the institution.

You mean institutions are always right?

??

Institutional racism was an evil for centuries. An institution crucified Jesus. Institutions have done incredible evil in the name of Christ throughout history.

I’m confused.

Change happens from within. If we don’t believe our churches reflect Christ’s teachings, that is the fault of the people, not the institution.

IMonk - your use of of the word institution is great and really helps us start to get a clearer view of the issues/arguments.

I will want to go back and read that post a few times, but have a few comments to participate in the dialog.

At the end, you state… “The defenders of institutions are often well motivated, and the critics of institutions are sometimes extreme, even as they are often partially truthful. ”

I don’t like the way that you identify the critics as partially truthful and the defenders as well motivated. I am a critic and yet am well motivated. I am motivated by trying to live out what the Scriptures say so that we can represent Jesus in a way that impacts people to move towards a relationship with Him.

I find that it is the defenders that are partially truthful and often motivated by the need to control in the name of Jesus.