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	<title>Comments on: What Kind of Person Will Be A Disciple?</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: stamati</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-231612</link>
		<dc:creator>stamati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-231612</guid>
		<description>ruben, 

i think i agree with you.  yet, i am still hesitant to go all the way with that statement.  like most things in life, there is probably a balance.  i&#039;m really just musing over those thoughts you expressed now.  when i read scripture, it can be very powerful, but it really is the acting out of that, the doing, that is the truth of scripture, if that makes sense.  i don&#039;t know, its late, i&#039;m babbling, and i&#039;ve been filling myself with sinful things....  

nonetheless, i&#039;ll relate a story that occurred earlier today:

i met a friend for breakfast, and we ran into another friend, Nick.  Nick and i started talking about theological things, and he mentioned this book that presented five different views on sanctification.  he said either one had to be right or none were right, and the truth was out there so to speak.  i asked if it really matter so much, and he replied that absolutely, the truth matters.  my thoughts on that are of course the truth matters, but if five accomplished theologians have five different views on the same theology, then how seriously can you take the argument?  i think this is especially true if its something like sanctification, which in my estimation should be something done and not talked about (essentially).  love Jesus, grow.  its simple.  don&#039;t love Jesus, die.  also fairly simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ruben, </p>
<p>i think i agree with you.  yet, i am still hesitant to go all the way with that statement.  like most things in life, there is probably a balance.  i&#8217;m really just musing over those thoughts you expressed now.  when i read scripture, it can be very powerful, but it really is the acting out of that, the doing, that is the truth of scripture, if that makes sense.  i don&#8217;t know, its late, i&#8217;m babbling, and i&#8217;ve been filling myself with sinful things&#8230;.  </p>
<p>nonetheless, i&#8217;ll relate a story that occurred earlier today:</p>
<p>i met a friend for breakfast, and we ran into another friend, Nick.  Nick and i started talking about theological things, and he mentioned this book that presented five different views on sanctification.  he said either one had to be right or none were right, and the truth was out there so to speak.  i asked if it really matter so much, and he replied that absolutely, the truth matters.  my thoughts on that are of course the truth matters, but if five accomplished theologians have five different views on the same theology, then how seriously can you take the argument?  i think this is especially true if its something like sanctification, which in my estimation should be something done and not talked about (essentially).  love Jesus, grow.  its simple.  don&#8217;t love Jesus, die.  also fairly simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruben</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-231343</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-231343</guid>
		<description>I think the &#039;sola scriptura&#039; ethic has been so abused that we now think that good theology is all that&#039;s necessary. Too much study and analysis of the Bible blinds us to the simple truths revealed to the child like. I think the best way to read the Bible is to put yourself into the narrative and let theology take it&#039;s proper place - in the background.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8217;sola scriptura&#8217; ethic has been so abused that we now think that good theology is all that&#8217;s necessary. Too much study and analysis of the Bible blinds us to the simple truths revealed to the child like. I think the best way to read the Bible is to put yourself into the narrative and let theology take it&#8217;s proper place &#8211; in the background.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael A</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230777</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230777</guid>
		<description>I think maybe it&#039;s time to define hyper-hyper-Calvinism.  That&#039;s the belief that I should not preach the gospel even to myself.  After all, if I attempt to work Truth into my heart, aren&#039;t I playing God?  If God wants me, he will overcome my complete indifference to His existence.

/sarcasm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think maybe it&#8217;s time to define hyper-hyper-Calvinism.  That&#8217;s the belief that I should not preach the gospel even to myself.  After all, if I attempt to work Truth into my heart, aren&#8217;t I playing God?  If God wants me, he will overcome my complete indifference to His existence.</p>
<p>/sarcasm</p>
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		<title>By: Peaches</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230767</link>
		<dc:creator>Peaches</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230767</guid>
		<description>What a great question!  
I think that the gospel is for the humble and not the proud.  I find myself sometimes too sure, to confident in my orthodoxy, no longer teachable, not tender toward the broken because they are &quot;not like me&quot;. The result is that I get tired, worn out, cynical and proud. O God this is the antithesis of the gospel of Christ.  Jesus asks that I be humble, sure I cannot make it on my own, teachable. My life in him, then, is trust.
I wish I stayed there more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great question!<br />
I think that the gospel is for the humble and not the proud.  I find myself sometimes too sure, to confident in my orthodoxy, no longer teachable, not tender toward the broken because they are &#8220;not like me&#8221;. The result is that I get tired, worn out, cynical and proud. O God this is the antithesis of the gospel of Christ.  Jesus asks that I be humble, sure I cannot make it on my own, teachable. My life in him, then, is trust.<br />
I wish I stayed there more.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Riley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230404</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Riley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230404</guid>
		<description>Great post, and, Raffi, great additional riff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, and, Raffi, great additional riff.</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230346</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230346</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if he &quot;coined&quot; the term, but I&#039;ve heard Bishop Will Willimon use it: &quot;functional atheism,&quot; by which is meant that we say that we believe in God and Jesus but live as if that doesn&#039;t matter. The post and several responses brought the term to mind. There are a lot of &quot;them&quot; out there, and we all struggle with &quot;functional atheism.&quot; We do indeed need God!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if he &#8220;coined&#8221; the term, but I&#8217;ve heard Bishop Will Willimon use it: &#8220;functional atheism,&#8221; by which is meant that we say that we believe in God and Jesus but live as if that doesn&#8217;t matter. The post and several responses brought the term to mind. There are a lot of &#8220;them&#8221; out there, and we all struggle with &#8220;functional atheism.&#8221; We do indeed need God!</p>
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		<title>By: J.Kru</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230313</link>
		<dc:creator>J.Kru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230313</guid>
		<description>We should always remind ourselves that pointing out how Jesus chose teachable people and not Pharisees almost always puts us in the category of teachable people.  Or, worse, it puts us in the category of people-who-decide-who-is-teachable... in other words, previously, because Jesus arrived, teachable common-folk could abandon the religious establishment.  And now, because &quot;I&quot; have arrived, teachable common-folk can abandon the religious establishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should always remind ourselves that pointing out how Jesus chose teachable people and not Pharisees almost always puts us in the category of teachable people.  Or, worse, it puts us in the category of people-who-decide-who-is-teachable&#8230; in other words, previously, because Jesus arrived, teachable common-folk could abandon the religious establishment.  And now, because &#8220;I&#8221; have arrived, teachable common-folk can abandon the religious establishment.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230273</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230273</guid>
		<description>I see believers all around me, and hear of believers all around the world, who have this simple love for Jesus, a basic-sometimes-flawed theology, a desire to serve and learn more. They are (mostly) teachable. Then, however, we all start looking to other people to teach us. And others see that, and they fill the need by filling seminaries, pulpits, radio programs, and bookshelves. 

We (the Church!) are supposed to be pointing everyone right to the Head, and following Him, but instead, it seems like those those are teachable keep turning into those who think they know something. 

I think it is usually laziness that leads us to look to other people for the path to follow Jesus, and usually pride that leads us to believe we have the right to get between Jesus and His followers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see believers all around me, and hear of believers all around the world, who have this simple love for Jesus, a basic-sometimes-flawed theology, a desire to serve and learn more. They are (mostly) teachable. Then, however, we all start looking to other people to teach us. And others see that, and they fill the need by filling seminaries, pulpits, radio programs, and bookshelves. </p>
<p>We (the Church!) are supposed to be pointing everyone right to the Head, and following Him, but instead, it seems like those those are teachable keep turning into those who think they know something. </p>
<p>I think it is usually laziness that leads us to look to other people for the path to follow Jesus, and usually pride that leads us to believe we have the right to get between Jesus and His followers.</p>
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		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-230004</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-230004</guid>
		<description>I like sacrosantgospel&#039;s comment on the intro reference:

&quot;what I find relatively shocking, is that the guy who penned those words, doesn’t seem to know the Gospel from a whole in the ground. How can this be? How is it that we who claim Christ often seem most pitiful at understanding the colossal need that we have for Him?&quot;

I think the answer is simple:  evangelicals have no need for God anymore.

You are right, that God chose teachable fisherman and women over unteachable, learned religious men.  The Pharisees had no more use for God than modern evangelicals.  The Pharisees (before rising to power after the Maccabees) used to be persecuted for being &quot;followers after smooth things&quot;.  They were the inventors of the original ten-step program:  follow our teachings to have the law-abiding life you always wanted.  Their system of rules excluded a need for a Messiah.  The arrival of the Messiah messed up everything (&quot;Why hast thou come now to hinder us?&quot; - Grand Inquisitor, from Dostoevsky&#039;s &quot;Brothers Karamazov&quot;).  Inclusion in the Pharisee club immuned one from a need for God; they were already in the &quot;in&quot; religious crowd.  Those excluded from the Pharisees&#039; club still needed a Messiah.

The similarities with current evangelical trends is staggering.

So, instead of trying to attract unbelievers with latte bars, water slides, and sex seminars, perhaps Churches could give people...Jesus? How many more Douglas Couplands are out there, who desperately want God - not stuff?  Is this odd? Members of liberalism and the intelligentsia are looking for God, while evangelicals are content without Him? It actually sounds no different than New Testament times.

Maybe everything does have to change.  What is it going to take to get back to the Gospel?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like sacrosantgospel&#8217;s comment on the intro reference:</p>
<p>&#8220;what I find relatively shocking, is that the guy who penned those words, doesn’t seem to know the Gospel from a whole in the ground. How can this be? How is it that we who claim Christ often seem most pitiful at understanding the colossal need that we have for Him?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the answer is simple:  evangelicals have no need for God anymore.</p>
<p>You are right, that God chose teachable fisherman and women over unteachable, learned religious men.  The Pharisees had no more use for God than modern evangelicals.  The Pharisees (before rising to power after the Maccabees) used to be persecuted for being &#8220;followers after smooth things&#8221;.  They were the inventors of the original ten-step program:  follow our teachings to have the law-abiding life you always wanted.  Their system of rules excluded a need for a Messiah.  The arrival of the Messiah messed up everything (&#8221;Why hast thou come now to hinder us?&#8221; &#8211; Grand Inquisitor, from Dostoevsky&#8217;s &#8220;Brothers Karamazov&#8221;).  Inclusion in the Pharisee club immuned one from a need for God; they were already in the &#8220;in&#8221; religious crowd.  Those excluded from the Pharisees&#8217; club still needed a Messiah.</p>
<p>The similarities with current evangelical trends is staggering.</p>
<p>So, instead of trying to attract unbelievers with latte bars, water slides, and sex seminars, perhaps Churches could give people&#8230;Jesus? How many more Douglas Couplands are out there, who desperately want God &#8211; not stuff?  Is this odd? Members of liberalism and the intelligentsia are looking for God, while evangelicals are content without Him? It actually sounds no different than New Testament times.</p>
<p>Maybe everything does have to change.  What is it going to take to get back to the Gospel?</p>
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		<title>By: bob pinto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-kind-of-person-will-be-a-disciple/comment-page-1#comment-229820</link>
		<dc:creator>bob pinto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1999#comment-229820</guid>
		<description>This essay seems to be divided into 2 parts - the intro and the rest. I focus on the intro,here.

At the deli counter of a small town convenience store, someone posted a sign that read : This is not the life I ordered. At first, I thought it was funny.....

While lamenting losses and seeing others&#039; lives cut terribly short by disease or car accidents, I&#039;d think that I&#039;d be willing to trade lives because I&#039;ve seen all I want to see and their lives are sorely needed. 

But I&#039;m here because I&#039;m supposed to be here. I just don&#039;t know what I&#039;m supposed to be doing. By the time I get it, I&#039;ll be too sick, tired or dead to do anything.

I&#039;ve spent years and years at self-purification attempts and stuffing the brain with bible trivia. and I still can&#039;t figure out God. 

Now that I&#039;m turning 50, there are discoveries that over-eating and lament are symptoms of selfishness. 
I&#039;m trying to learn small corny habits that Southerners do by instinct: eye contact with a little smile, a kind word to the cashier, concern over others&#039; health,waiting patiently, and (gasp!) being the first to say hello when someone walks by.

Some things won&#039;t change though. I still don&#039;t like others dumping their problems in my lap and then being ignored when the problems go away. Just because I do right doesn&#039;t mean I want to do right.

What, you ask, does all this have to do with being a disciple? 

First, I&#039;m still not fit to be a disciple despite biblical declarations to the contrary.

Second, I still don&#039;t how to be a disciple. I just hope my new habits aforementioned will make up the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This essay seems to be divided into 2 parts &#8211; the intro and the rest. I focus on the intro,here.</p>
<p>At the deli counter of a small town convenience store, someone posted a sign that read : This is not the life I ordered. At first, I thought it was funny&#8230;..</p>
<p>While lamenting losses and seeing others&#8217; lives cut terribly short by disease or car accidents, I&#8217;d think that I&#8217;d be willing to trade lives because I&#8217;ve seen all I want to see and their lives are sorely needed. </p>
<p>But I&#8217;m here because I&#8217;m supposed to be here. I just don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;m supposed to be doing. By the time I get it, I&#8217;ll be too sick, tired or dead to do anything.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve spent years and years at self-purification attempts and stuffing the brain with bible trivia. and I still can&#8217;t figure out God. </p>
<p>Now that I&#8217;m turning 50, there are discoveries that over-eating and lament are symptoms of selfishness.<br />
I&#8217;m trying to learn small corny habits that Southerners do by instinct: eye contact with a little smile, a kind word to the cashier, concern over others&#8217; health,waiting patiently, and (gasp!) being the first to say hello when someone walks by.</p>
<p>Some things won&#8217;t change though. I still don&#8217;t like others dumping their problems in my lap and then being ignored when the problems go away. Just because I do right doesn&#8217;t mean I want to do right.</p>
<p>What, you ask, does all this have to do with being a disciple? </p>
<p>First, I&#8217;m still not fit to be a disciple despite biblical declarations to the contrary.</p>
<p>Second, I still don&#8217;t how to be a disciple. I just hope my new habits aforementioned will make up the difference.</p>
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