What do Gays and Lesbians Hear? (repost)
March 28, 2008 by iMonk
Before getting into the substance of this essay, I want to mention how little I care for much of the terminology I’m going to use.
As a Christian humanist, there are two sources for my view of human beings: The image of God in creation, and the image of humanity in the incarnation/resurrection of Jesus. I am resistant and reluctant to speak of human beings through other identifiers, such as race or sexual preference. For example, I don’t believe terms such as “black” or “gay” accurately communicate what is most important about a human being.
A person who is sexually attracted to the same gender or has participated in sexual activities with the same gender is exactly what such sentences imply. It is wrong to use terms that imply those labeled are defined by their actions or feelings. It is a particularly postmodern twist to assert that someone’s identity should come from a label assigned by a group.
We are persons made in God’s image; persons for whom Jesus was incarnated, sacrificed and raised. These identities should dominate in all our understandings of human beings. To use other labels runs a serious risk of dehumanizing those we should be treating with the same respect as Jesus himself demonstrated and embodied.
I know some of my readers are going to have a volatile reaction to this essay. Be certain that I will not tolerate any derogatory or hateful expressions in the comments.
What do gays and lesbians hear when they listen to evangelicals?
1. They aren’t there.
Many evangelicals speak about gays and lesbians as if they are not present in church or ministry gatherings.
The number of persons in society who would be reasonably classified as homosexuals is a controversial discussion. Numbers range from 15% to 2%. While there is reason to doubt the research that provided the much-quoted Kinsey number of 10%, my experience tells me that the real number may be closer to the number of people who, at one time or another, define themselves as primarily sexually oriented to the same gender. In my work with young people, I’ve been continually convinced that the number is perhaps 3-5%, and in my culture, I’d defend that as accurate. In other geographic and cultural settings, such as urban or university areas, I would be more inclined to the 10% number.
The important fact is this: There are no places in evangelicalism–whether over coffee in a university setting or in church in a small southern town–where we can afford to act or speak as if homosexuals are not present. They are, and most of us know this.
Recently, a student who had been at our ministry for six years came out while at college. I was not surprised, but I had not suspected. I was reminded that sexual identities are in flux during some phases of life. Other people are in a struggle regarding sexual identity that they cannot acknowledge. Seldom do any of us correctly predict the person, like my former student, who “makes a decision” after he of she is safely out of range of evangelical influence.
So we cannot speak and act as if homosexuals aren’t there.
2. Their sexual orientation is entirely chosen.
Despite the fact that no intelligent person would make the case that heterosexuality is entirely chosen, it is common to say this about homosexuality. The fact is that human sexual attraction is a highly complex mixture of factors and no one, most certainly not a preacher, is going to make authoritative pronouncements on why someone is attracted to the same gender in any situation.
The likelihood that sexual attraction contains unchosen factors such as genetic predisposition and early psychological orientation is high. While social and experiential factors are also influential, we can’t assume that every person experiencing homosexual attraction is able to follow a prescription of change with equal success. Like so many other human behaviors, a person convinced it is wrong to be sexually attracted to a person of the same gender needs a network of support, encouragement and acceptance. This kind of support begins with a compassionate understanding that some aspects of sexuality just “are,” and won’t be explained away, prayed away or cast out in an exorcism. They will be lived with.
3. Gays and lesbians are the political enemies of Christians.
The development of political activism among Christians is a two-edged sword. One of the negative edges is the tendency to see persons and groups through the lens of political preferences first, in terms of politics secondarily or not at all.
Gays and lesbians who find themselves in the midst of evangelical Christians will hear about the “homosexual agenda” being put forward as a genuine threat to the well-being of families and children, and a special threat to Christians. What are the chances that gays and lesbians hearing this threat announced are involved in the political actions described or even are sympathetic to them in any way at all? Very small, especially in most places.
The politicization of homosexuality is a real phenomenon that most homosexual activists would like us to understand and appreciate. But the church preaches the Gospel, and it is unwise to politically demonize those who need to hear the message because some members of that community are politically assertive.
4. Gays and lesbians must change (and want to change) their sexual orientation, not just pursue chastity.
A few months before he died, Christian writer Henri Nouwen stated that he was homosexual in orientation, but had always lived in chastity. This honest admission certainly caused some Christians to take a moment and think carefully about what they actually believed. Isn’t it necessary for homosexuals to change their orientation, become heterosexuals and be attracted to the opposite gender before they can be Christians?
The answer, of course, is no. Like every other sinner, sexual sinners of every kind are invited to repent and believe in the Good News. No specific results of that repentance can be assigned to a schedule or scorecard. Repentance is an imperfect struggle for all of us, especially those of us who struggle with sinful addictions and life-dominating sins.
The church must be a place where sinners are forgiven, not given a list of demanded changes. Christ himself is the Lord of sanctification. The goal of purity and chastity is hardly achieved by any of us, and it is unfair and unbiblical to assign special conditions to the repentant homosexual.
5. Gays and lesbians do not consider themselves to be Christians, and those that do are not really Christians.
Many evangelicals, apparently operating on the stereotype that all gays and lesbians are hostile to Christianity, consistently say that gays and lesbians cannot be Christians.
Certainly one of the dilemmas that I feel most personally in presenting Christianity is the responsibility to invite all persons to repent and believe the Good News. At the same time, I would not say less than scripture says about the Kingdom of God and sexual sin.
Unrepentant gays and lesbians who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior present a dilemma for evangelicals. Most evangelicals, like myself, believe the teaching of scripture is clear in regard to the subjects of marriage and sexuality. Most of us do not believe these teachings are culturally conditioned, but reflect basic Trinitarian sacredness in the entire area of sexual relationships.
On the other hand, evangelicals like myself also understand that many gay and lesbian Christians read the scriptures differently than we do, and have a serious and sincere personal faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is nothing less than heart-breaking and painful when these values come into conflict in regard to our relationships with individuals for whom we have personal respect and affection.
I would not be a member of a church or a denomination that compromised in any way on Hebrews 13:4 or the sacredness of sexuality as a reflection of the Trinity. Nor would I want to be associated with those who rejected the professions of faith of genuine fellow Christians. It is a painful and presumptuous thing to refuse to recognize a fellow sinner as a Christian. We should be extremely reluctant to do so, even if we find ourselves being accused of being too gracious by some and too narrow by others.
Like many other evangelicals, I have no resolution to this issue. I will be offensive to gays and lesbians when I interpret what I believe scripture teaches. I will be offensive to many evangelicals when I consider gay and lesbian Christians my brothers and sisters.
Speaking only for myself, gays and lesbians–like all of us who are accountable to God for the gift of sexuality–will hear both sides of the Biblical message.
6. The reporting of sexual scandals involving gays and lesbians is done with an unmistakable agenda.
One of the inevitable results of the information age is that anyone who wants to know the worst behavior of any group can gather that information easily. If one chooses not to be judicious and cautious with such information, it is possible to make every member of a group guilty by association.
The kinds of associations made in the minds of already biased persons regarding the likelihood of homosexual persons molesting children, for example, are often irresponsible and slanderously unfair (especially in comparison to the behavior of upstanding, churchgoing heterosexuals.) It is wrong to make these associations.
For example, saying that some gays somewhere have hundreds of sexual partners has little to do with the behavior of gays that I might know. As a statement of statistical truth, it cannot be applied in a determinative way to any individual. The average preacher is well aware of the extremes of sexual sin that probably occur among heterosexuals, but few would find it as easy to speak about internet porn addiction as promiscuity in the gay community.
What this says to the gay community is simple: evangelicals aren’t interested in the truth as much as they are interested in an emotional response. There is an agenda to how we process such facts and stories into communication. I have pointed out a similar agenda in the reporting of the priest sexual abuse scandals in comparison to heterosexual sexual abuse among evangelical youth ministers and and clergy.
7. We don’t get how hard it is to be gay among evangelicals.
I really can’t add anything to that. It’s been a long journey for many of us to get past what our evangelical/fundamentalist environment gave us permission to say and think about other human beings as long as we could attach “homo” or “queer” to the sentence. It was shameful, and I’m grateful for those who have helped me get past that kind of sin to repentance and a love for those Jesus loves.
My words and the words of many other evangelicals have made it more difficult for some gays to hear the Gospel. I hope I can repent of that error better in the future. Just in inappropriate humor alone, I’ve got plenty to answer for.
8. The culture war more than the Gospel.
Undeniable. And many evangelicals like it that way and are ready to redefine evangelicalism into a culture war movement to remake moral life. The “protection” of children from the aspects of the culture they despise, oppose and fear is becoming the main business of many evangelicals, complete with accompanying rhetoric of revival, end times conflicts and spiritual warfare waged against, among others, gays and their supporters.
If you believe in a Jesus-shaped spirituality and the Grace Story more than the “I’m Good” Story, the choice of the culture war over the Gospel is a disastrous development.
One last note that is very important.
Many evangelical young people no longer share the attitudes of their parents and grandparents toward this issue. If you don’t know that, you aren’t paying attention. I am not talking about the all evangelical young people or the most conservative of them. I am talking about a significant shift in attitude that has come about, like it or not, by a lifetime of exposure to a far more visible, vocal and self-defining gay community.
These attitude changes may not go so far as to include reinterpretation of the Biblical teachings on sexuality and marriage, but they will have tremendous effects on the attitudes of younger Christians, new churches, political involvement and the overall view of how we deal with the issue of sexuality. I cannot see the concern, for example, for changing orientation as a requirement of repentance continuing into future generations with anything close to the same support.
Wow Michael you are touching on some heavy stuff here
Let me describe two Christians to you and your readers both are Gay (or perhaps bisexual) and I have every reason to believe are (or were) God fearing:
One man fights the passions that he believes are sinful but occasionally falls to temptation. When he fails it is inevitably in cheep casual relationships of the most sorted type. After each affair he is overcome with guilt repents and promises God and Himself he will not fall again. Sadly he does again and again.
The Second Man accepted that his homosexuality was the result of a broken and fallen world where no mere human being could hope to be truly holy in the sight of God apart from Christ’s sacrificial blood. He determined to live a life of love and faithfulness to a man that he loves and try’s to be faithful to him.
I knew both of these men the first was my Uncle the Second was (for a brief time my Priest). The first man dead of Aids nearly 20 years ago he left a wife and three children behind and he was as an aside a pillar in his local Baptist Church.
The Second Man ministers to a small working class Anglo Catholic inner-city parish and is a chaplain at a local mental hospital. To this day he serves faithfully his partner, His church and his community.
Which of these men are the most faithfully Christian. I was once sure and am now no longer.
God Bless
I am not useing my name since I do not wish to jeopardize the reputation of either man.
Great great post. And so true. Thanks so much.
A very nice discussion of the complexities of the issues. I have known several homosexual leaning christians who struggle in this area. It is easier to have a gospel response when you a sinner struggling with sin, but I think where we have trouble, and where the over reaction occurs is in the attempt to make it not a sin. We should not make it worse than other sins, but how do we struggle to keep others from redefining it as not a sin without seeming to put more emphasis on it? We are failing in that…..
MIchael,
Awesome post. I applaud your honesty and your emotion. Keep up the great work!
Couple of things for people whose posts I have not posted.
1) I am not going to post mini-lectures with the usual scripture passages. I’m aware of those scriptures.
2) I am not going to post anything suggests I’m rejecting Biblical teaching.
3) I am not going to post offensive terms.
Excellent, excellent. Standing ovation.
I can’t wait for the comments from someone who creates some sort of parallel like this: “Say that someone disagreed that murder in Scripture was a sin; or pedophilia; would you still call them brothers and sisters and just let them interpret differently?”
I really think the issue of committed homosexual partners is a difficult one for Christians, and we’re not handling it well. I agree with the traditional biblical interpretation on homosexuality, but you’re right on target with this essay, Michael: what we need to discuss is what we’re communicating. And what we’re communicating to homosexual partners who are more committed to each other than the youth pastor, who’s addicted to porn, is to his wife is that they’re as bad as a pedophile. And while both things are still sins, that’s simply not true.
This is one of the few sins that no one in church can actually be honest about. I could tell a lot of stories, but I’d be betraying trust, of course. But the appalled reaction to someone’s revealing their struggle with homosexual desire is ridiculous and hypocritical. Confess your struggle with pride or laziness, and people will nod their head, share in your struggle, and pray for you. Confess to your accountability group that you struggle with heterosexual lust, and they’ll rally around you and support you. Confess homosexual desire, and you can guarantee you’ll be met with shock, with disbelief, with a few quick words of advice…and then you’ll be expected to just get over it and never bring it up again, please.
Michael,
Very thought-provoking post. Thank you for sharing the struggle.
I am really wrestling with how to rightly think about this issue. One question that keeps me on a pendulum is this. Would you say that the sin is not in the sexual leaning itself but rather in the expression of that leaning (faithfulness vs promiscuity, etc)?
Press on!
Thanks for writing this.
Can you give the reference on your comment about Henri Nouwen. I’d like to know more of what he said and the context in which he said it.
Thanks.
In the small congregation where I worship, we welcome the homosexual into the congregation. No questions asked. No demands given.
What we don’t welcome is the advocacy, and or flaunting of that sin, or any other sin. (not true of many, if not most congregations in our church body)
In fact, there are many congregations in our church body that have practicing homosexuals as pastors. This, I believe, sends the wrong message about sin (that’s it’s really no big deal and God will just wink at it).
We preach the law in it’s full force (regarding all forms of sin) and pray the the Lord will work repentance in the heart of the sinner, so that when the gospel is handed over to them (without strings), they might, by the grace of God come to a living faith. (again, and again, and again)
Thanks for the very thoughtful post, I.Monk.
– Steve M.
All of us are sexually broken as a result of the fall, so there is no substantial difference at that level.
We are put together differently, making some kinds of sexual expression more appealing to individuals at various times and ways. (This is why I hate the labels. We’re all just humans with the tendency to sin sexually.) So it is more difficult to be an 18 year old young man than a 51 year old man, but I’m sexually tempted at both ages.
Hebrews 13:4 gives our two options (marriage and celebacy), which none of us fulfills perfectly, but which is commanded both for our temporal blessing, the reflection of God’s glory and the magnification of Grace.
Jesus Christ is our sexual righteousness, not being “straight,” etc.
I just read an amazing book called ‘Walking with Gay Friends’ by Alex Tylee – it’s an IVP book published last September. Well worth reading!
I recently had a conversation with a friend who is an openly gay older man, who has been in a relationship with another gay man for 27 years, and who also lives with a much younger Asian gay male. In the past we have shared very openly and honestly about our views of Jesus and the church, and I don’t need to tell you how frequently this man has been hurt by the church in the past…you can probably guess that on your own.
Anyways, he believes almost everything you and I believe about Jesus. He believes from reading the Scriptures that Jesus was the Son of God, that he came and died for the sins of humanity and that he literally rose from the dead. With that said he openly shared with me that he cannot follow Jesus because it would require that he change his relationship with the man he has loved for 27 years. He’s simply not willing to do that regardless of the consequences. This isn’t some twenty year old kid experimenting in life. It’s a man who has thought through these issues very deeply and has a deep love for another man, probably as deep as the love many of us in the heterosexual community have for our husbands and wives. It’s because of this love that he will not submit His life to Christ.
The younger Asian man that they live with came to Christ when he was a youth in Indonesia. He was already an outsider in his culture for professing Christ in the largest muslim country in the world. While a youth he also started to feel attractions toward other men. He has frankly told me that he didn’t wake up one morning and decide “today I’m going to be attracted to men,” but that he was just attracted to men…just as most of us were attracted to the opposite sex. As he started being open about these emotions he was quickly pushed to the curb by his church. He says it wasn’t intentional on their part, they just didn’t know how to respond to him and could only see him as a gay man, and filtered everything else through that reality. He still attempts to follow Christ outside of the church, or occasionally with other gay Christians, but his faith struggles without the community that many of us take for granted.
My relationship with these men hasn’t changed my views on what the Scriptures teach in regards to homosexuality, but it has changed how I view homosexuals and the reality of their love for one another. It has helped me to see their perspective.
Thanks for this very thoughtful post. One of my very best lifelong friends is gay. We’ve been friends since we were 11. We’re now in our 40’s. He “came out” in his 20’s. That didn’t put a crimp in our relationship. There have been many life issues that could have caused a wall between us. But you know what has? My becoming an evangelical Christian at 30. Though I have always loved him and will always love him and have never understood the homophobia that has permeated the church. I do understand all of the discussion about sin and redemption (of course) none of that can explain the fear and loathing that surrounds the discussion.
Nothing to add but my support for this post. I wish I’d have written it myself.
Michael,
About your statement that practicing homosexuals can be Christians:
One of the key aspects of the gospel is repentance, and one of the marks of a Christian is that they will seek to follow God’s commands. If a person honestly does not think that their homosexual activities are wrong, then how can they have the holy spirit inside them? Isn’t the Spirit supposed to convict us of our sin? Or does he just do it part of the time?
I thought the rest of your article was excellent, but that part made me furrow my brow, I confess.
Thanks for touching on this important subject. I recently got involved in a discussion on Gene Edward Veith Blog http://www.geneveith.com/the-issues-etc-mystery/_446/ about the demise of Issues etc. I self identified as a “broad church” Anglican and unintentionally released a flood of vitriol directed at my Churches support for “sodomites”. Thankfully another commenter intervened and the discussion became much more civil. We have to be much more carefully how we talk about human sexuality and Gays in particular. We are starting to bear a unmistakable resemblance to a bunch of Pharisees at best and plain old ordinary hypocrites at worst.
God Bless
Steve in Toronto
Michael,
I so appreciate your critical thinking on even the most painful and divisive issues in the body of Christ. I thought I had it all figured out and then God brought into my path those that did not fit my very neat, black and white view. I could not deny these folks as my brothers and sisters in Christ. We worship and pray together and are on much the same path spiritually. But they are of the LGBT variety. It did not compute. I must go back to Luther’s statement that we are all saints and sinners. God is God and I am not and he is in a better position to judge his servants.
Peace and many thanks.
Great post.
The last part about cultural shifts among the young is really important. I have heard older pastors speak in ways that have made me cringe. They will speak of a particular case as if it were only happening “out there” with no sense of what might be happening in the congregation. Such a pastor may not immediately lose the younger members of the congregation, but they won’t be bringing their friends, even their straight Christian friends, to visit, for fear of embarrassment.
On the other hand I have seen some very orthodox pastors avoid that altogether. And I think the lectionary is helpful here. It keeps pastors from those topical sermons that so many offer on this and other subjects.
I want to thank you for writing this. Coming from the other side (a gay woman), I think you express very well some of the things that I hear when I attend some (not all) Christian churches or talk to some (not all) Christians.
I would like to expand on something, though, that you somewhat touched on when you spoke about the ways that scandals involving gays and lesbians are selectively reported. I would add that in addition to the sensationalist aspect, such reporting comes across as incredibly ignorant. I recall one well meaning person sending me some statistics that “proved” that the average gay or lesbian would have over 500 sexual partners in their lifetime, as a kind of evidence of sexuality depravity in gay and lesbian and bisexual men and women. That statistics neither applies to me or anyone else I know- it has the same truth value as stating the gays or lesbians are born with goat horns, or have gigantic rainbow birthmarks on their belly. When you are given “information” like that, it makes anything else the person has to say suspect.
So I’d add that when I go into a church or am speaking with a Christian (or Muslim or anyone) who makes blanket statements about human sexuality that I know to be untrue in my own life, I am inclined to assume that they really aren’t an accurate source of information, period. It is uncomfortable to then try to ascertain- is this person just genuinely ignorant, and do I have an obligation as a person who values truth to attempt to educate them? Or is this person maliciously spreading disinformation because, actually, they have no desire or intention to include people with gay orientations into their invitation to accept Christ, and are quite content to turn their listeners against them?
I want to stress, though, that I’ve been to many churches, and spoken to many Christians, where neither the ignorance nor the percieved maliciousness exists. Like so many other things in Christianity, I think the ugliness and unkindness and divisiveness is the loud minority.
@Mike Spencer:
I just thought I should point out that you that you left out some thing son your list:
1. There is a homosexual “lifestyle” of drug abuse and reckless hedonism that all gays participate in.
2. Gays actively recruit others.
3. “They want to destroy the family” (although I guess this can fall under the “culture-war”-thing).
@Travis Pinzi:
“I can’t wait for the comments from someone who creates some sort of parallel like this: ‘Say that someone disagreed that murder in Scripture was a sin; or pedophilia; would you still call them brothers and sisters and just let them interpret differently?’”
Interestingly enough there are those who would argue that since the model for same-sex relations practiced in the Greco-Roman world of Paul’s day was pederasty what Paul was condemning was something other than homosexuality itself. I find that Robin Scrogg’s New Testament and Homosexuality argues this very well.
Another thing that I would like to add to your list of what we hear all too often: the assumption that we somehow simply haven’t heard that many Christians think being gay and Christian are incompatible.
I can’t tell you how many times people respond to finding out that I am gay (whether they know I am a Christian or not) with “Well, have you read Leviticus? The Bible is against that;”
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, the assumption is insulting. It is impossible to be a gay person and not know about it. And many of us have spent a great deal of time and energy praying, reading, researching, and coming to terms with it. While it is possible that there are church-going, prayerful Christian gay people who simply never thought about it, I’ve never met one. Trust me, we’ve read Leviticus. And Paul.
It isn’t insulting to ask us how we reconcile the apparent contradictions, if you are genuinely interested. But like any other subject that concerns someone personally and intimately, chances are the average gay person has given it a great deal of thought.
Have you left any room for church discipline? If you won’t deny someone’s sincere profession of faith even if they are in what you consider to be sin, then how can you (lovingly – as it always should be) practice church discipline? The way I understand 1 Cor 5 is that we shouldn’t let someone live under the false impression that they are a believer – for the sake of their soul and our congregations’. I am not talking about the repentant sinner, but the one who interprets the bible to say there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality.
I have come to the realization over the course of my life that homosexuality is just another sin amongst many.What sin does God look approvingly upon? Evangelicals will accept all those other sinners who have been guilty of and who struggle with all those sins we have all come to know and love (or accept as less defiling sins) adultery, slapping your wife around,hunting out of season, sneaking a drink when we say we are teetotalers, etc.What about Christian men who look at porn and masturbate? Percentage wise I’ll bet that is a bigger portion of the population than gay men.Sin is sin and we all struggle with it, no matter what type of sin it is, even after we become Christians.
Ben Wheaton/Rick:
Homosexual acts are sin, as are all sexual sins.
Unrepentant sexual sins of any kind are sin.
I never say anything in this essay that approves of homosexual acts.
The struggling to repent homosexual is no different than me or any other sexual sinner.
I did not ever suggest an unrepentant sexual sinner be comforted with the Gospel.
I enjoyed reading the post and agree with many of the points you have made (although not all) I am gay, Christian and of the evangelical persuasion. Might I add that what we “hear” coming from the church is also colored by just how “out” we are ourselves, and how we ourselves have come to deal/believe/live with scriptural authority.
That said, let me say from the semi-out perspective that I know above all things that in church it is not safe to be me. I have no doubt that some would believe intently that they have the scriptural authority from God to kill me for simply being me. The message I hear – It’s ok to hate gay people because God hates us. Forget about the love the sinner/hate the sin paradigm because everyone’s actions speak a far different story.
And this is not from a Westboro Baptist church, but from a mainstream evangelical church.
The message the church thinks it is giving is very different from the message being received. And the sad thing is – there is such a hunger among the gay community for spiritual things. Unfortunately when you hear such a crass and manipulative representation of gay life and experience coming from the church (reality is that we are just as diverse as the heterosexual community) you assume that finding God in such a place is a low probability.
Michael,
Thanks for a thought provoking post. It prompted me to consider being a sinner by nature. While my theology says that I am a sinner by nature, the Christian environment in which I live really believes that we are sinners by choice. I can always do better, try harder and so stop the “big sins”. This conversation about homosexuals does not just direct my mind to “them” but to me. Is this what it means to be a sinner by my nature? Is this what grace is about when I am utterly incapable of helping myself?
We are more alike after all.
I appreciate your willingness to try to flesh out what is surely a sensitive subject w/in many Conservative / Evangelical circles. The analogy of Christ the Groom and the Church His Bride, coupled with the palpable intimacy / mystery of marriage and the marriage bed as portrayed by Paul, seems to “red flag” celibate homosexuality. A homosexual union can never be consummated in any biblical sense. Ergo, even the attraction to another robs the homosexual of any potential to realize a (in the “biblical” paradigm) “two-shall-become-one” union as described by Jesus. The heterosexual, while still a sexual sinner outside of marriage, at least has the opportunity to realize this potential.
Whether we “choose” to be homosexual is another matter. It personally seems strange to me that someone could “choose” either orientation, but I do try to view it within a biblical frame of reference. It must surely be a heavy load to bear knowing that you can never consummate your relation ship under God’s design. I would be curious to get a Gay Christian’s take on this.
Finally, my own experience with homosexual men has been less than positive. Over the course of 4 years, I became good friends with an older man (in hindsight, it sounds strange even saying that). Despite the obvious fact of my being married with two (2) kids, he began to treat me like a jealous lover, and I finally had to put an end to our friendship. According to my pastor at the time, what that gentleman needed to hear from me was that I was not gay. My relationship to my family mattered little to him.
Maybe it was my fault for being ignorant, but I have since concluded that close friendships between a straight man and a gay man are probably impossible. BTW, I also think it is very difficult for a man and a woman to be close friends as one will likely have greater expectations from the relationship.
Cramdon: I’m sorry for your experience, but such “ownership” issues are a problem in many relationships, esp among women. I would agree that for a gay man seeking to be celibate, the issue of friendship does contain some complexities in some cases.
Rick: I am not sure what you mean about church discipline. If any person persists in unrepentant sexual sin, there should be a loving response.
Should churches discipline men who struggle, but still view internet porn? Are the elders of a church the best persons to deal with issues of sexual sin if the person is struggling to do what is right?
I see discipline as applying to the those who are unrepentant and obstinate.
I know quite a few men who struggle with same-sex attraction…and do not sin. We are in a group of close intimate friendships and we confess our sins to one another. Also, we talk about our struggles before they become sin. I’ve come to realize that we are all, in some degree, reigning in our desires (hetero & homo) to come into line with God’s best intentions for us. Straight men have more in common with gay men than we think…we are all sinner’s in need of grace.
Cramdon: “It must surely be a heavy load to bear knowing that you can never consummate your relation ship under God’s design. I would be curious to get a Gay Christian’s take on this.”
My response would be to ask you what your take on a heterosexual couple who, prior to marriage, became knowingly infertile (cancer and its treatment, a hysterectomy, testicular cancer, etc), through no “choice” of their own beyond accepting the reality of their life. Must they be celibate? Is it immoral for the fertile spouse to have knowingly married someone infertile?
I know that here, there will be almost universal disagreement, but for me it seems very clear that being gay is a part of God’s design, at least for me.
People are very free to declare me unwelcome in their Church community, but they do not have the authority to declare me outside of God’s love or God’s plan. (Not that you did with your question, but undeniably many do with their words and actions.)
Michael Spencer:
Great post. This is a breath of fresh air in a terrible mud-slinging contest, so thank you for that.
Cramdon:
While I understand the negative situation you found yourself in, I disagree with your generalization. I personally have heterosexual attractions, but one of my good friends does not, and there has never been any sort of problem with our relationship. It is generally unwise to make a universal statement based on a single experience.
Ben Wheaton:
While I agree that the Holy Spirit guides and directs us in how to live, “Christian” morality is far from unified. for example:
- is it morally permissible to smoke or drink?
- is it morally permissible to kill people in war?
- is it morally permissible to put a criminal to death?
- is it morally permissible for a woman to be a pastor?
- is it morally permissible to be in a committed, lifelong, homosexual relationship?
Since when have Christians ever agreed on these issues? There is a need to have dialogue on these issues, and not arrogantly assume that our position must certainly be God’s position.
(having seen Peter’s comment I wished to add another thing)
Peter, I agree with you. If a person were to hold a position that the consummation of marriage could only be between a couple that could have kids, then must also hold that an infertile couple cannot get married. correct?
Cramdon, I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Hello Peter,
I guess therein lies the rub; what is God’s design?
In response to the infertility issue, I assume you are driving at pro-creation as the reason for sexual consummation under God’s “design.” That is a fair question, but I believe that Paul was driving at sexual expression more so than pro-creation, in contrast to those who would unite themselves sexually with another outside of marriage.
The point being that sex is not contingent upon marriage, but marriage appears to be the only legitimate venue for sex. We could argue further that Paul and Christ (via the Gospels) always presupposed a man / wife relationship. Whether that presupposition is a mandate I’ll leave to others. I do think that many in the Church have a problem condoning homosexual practice, despite any sincere appeals to long-term (and loving) monogamy.
It is of course the same with heterosexual practice outside of marriage, though the bias is there and Michael addresses this rather nicely.
I appreciate your perspective, thanks.
When I read the New Testament gospels (Mark most recently, chp. 1) I find Jesus sharing the gospel. Jesus doesn’t go around telling sinners how bad their sin is, not ranking sins in order of how bad one is compared to another. He calls for repentance in Mark 1:15, then for belief in the gospel. He isn’t fighting a culture war, either. He declares to all sinners of every type that he is the way, the truth and the life.
Michael,
It was my impression that you said that people who believed that the Bible was not forbidding modern-day homosexual relationships were still Christians.
“On the other hand, evangelicals like myself also understand that many gay and lesbian Christians read the scriptures differently than we do, and have a serious and sincere personal faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is nothing less than heart-breaking and painful when these values come into conflict in regard to our relationships with individuals for whom we have personal respect and affection.”
It is my belief that when a person has such an erroneous view of morality, and endorses and celebrates such a view, they are not Christians. That is what I was commenting on. I know that you disapprove of homosexuality.
Ben W: I tried to express the dilemma many of us feel between accepting a person’s profession of faith while believing in the Biblical definition of sexual sin. I didn’t mean to leave the impression that I viewed the sexual sin as anything other than sexual sin. These are contradictory and it presents persons like me, who want to be Gospel-centered, with a real dilemma.
Of course a person can be a Christian and be deceived about the approval of his lifestyle, however, that scenario is spiritually precarious. The man in Corinthians who was living with his father’s wife turned out to be saved, and Peter denied ever knowing Christ.
It is an incredible challenge of the ministry of redemption to preach the everlasting gospel without either appearing to condone or appearing to condemn specific sins. Because of the unloving attitude of the church in former days, and because of the shift in today’s theologies, there will continue to be over reactions from all quarters to the detriment of everyone and most especially the gay community.
Redemption will lie broken in the streets.
As others have mentioned, wish I had written this post, but could not have done as good a job.
Hello Ryan,
You said:
“It is generally unwise to make a universal statement based on a single experience.”
I said:
“Finally, my own experience with homosexual men has been less than positive.”
I don’t think I was generalizing. I prefaced my experience as my own.
Thanks.
I thought Michael’s post did a good job of addressing the unloving treatment that homosexuals often receive from the Christian community. I was disappointed that neither the post nor any of the subsequent comments seem to hold out any hope that real and genuine change is possible for homosexuals.
Thankfully, Jesus is in the business of changing hearts. If He weren’t, none of us could or would be saved. I am one who was formerly held captive to sexual sin, even though I claimed and thought myself to be a good Christian. I was enslaved to pornography for over twenty years. I thank God, that I found a ministry (SettingCaptivesFree.com) that was able to give me Biblical instruction and point me to Jesus who held the key to my freedom from sexual sin. This same ministry offers help to those who struggle with several other habitual sins including homosexuality.
Our theme verse comes from Isaiah 61.
Isaiah 61:1-3 ASV
(1) The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
(2) to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
(3) to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.
Can homosexuals change? That question is premised on labeling people with a permanent label, which I say in the opening of the post I believe is sub-Christian. God doesn’t see us as hetero or homo. He sees us as creations and in Jesus. We are sexual sinners. And we all can repent, change, etc. Imperfectly.
Continuing the label under the discussion of “Changing homosexuals” is a problem for me. How about “Can sinners be Christians?” or “Can sinners repent and be changed?”
I’d like to change. Anyone else?
I do not claim that anyone can or will be perfected in this life, but yes there is a real possiblility of change, even for the sexually immoral of any stripe. That is what sanctification is all about.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
(9) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
(10) nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(11) And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I find it sad that you deny even the possibility of change. Why then be a Christian at all?
Mr. Kurtz: What part of “We can all change imperfectly” doesn’t register with you?
>How about “Can sinners be Christians?” or “Can sinners repent and be changed?”
Rhetorical answer is YES. I’m trying to avoid an offensive and unbiblical label. Do you think I’ve been telling people for 33 years that they can’t change?
Are you telling them they can change perfectly?
There are many organizations that can attest to God’s power to set homosexuals free. Even the New Testament uses sin labels to describe what we once were. It even uses sin labels to identify certain sinners. (covetous, extortioners, idolaters, fornicators, eadulterers, effeminate, thieves, drunkards, etc., etc.). So although I agree with you intentions, God Himself identifies certain sinners by their most predominate practicing sin.
The answer is “yes” a homosexual can be free in Christ just as an adulterer can as well, and as you noted not always immutably free. I do agree the label does not have to be permenant, but God uses those terms to describe some sinners. You are correct that a sinner is “lost” first and “homosexual” second, but many gay people are given hope by hearing that they can overcome through Christ.
Grace and truth are brothers.
One of your commenters said, “About your statement that practicing homosexuals can be Christians:
One of the key aspects of the gospel is repentance, and one of the marks of a Christian is that they will seek to follow God’s commands. If a person honestly does not think that their homosexual activities are wrong, then how can they have the holy spirit inside them? Isn’t the Spirit supposed to convict us of our sin? Or does he just do it part of the time?”
Here is my question? Don’t you find it amazing that culturally we tend to be more accepting of hetrosexual couples who are having sexual relationships outside of marriage – or actually living together? But, honestly – is there really much a difference between two homosexual and two heterosexual individuals living together? As a Christian, we know that any sexual relationship outside of marriage is a sin. I know many heterosexual couples who will tell you that they know having a sexual relationship outside of marriage is wrong – but, they continue in it anyway. To be honest, I think there are many times that the Holy Spirit convicts our hearts – of many different kinds of sin – and we tend to just push it aside and continue on in our sin – but, that does not make us any less a Christian – just a Christian who is not living in the complete freedom of Jesus Christ.
Great post, Michael!
Michael,
Perhaps I did misunderstand you. If so, then please forgive me. You do give me the impression that you see little or no hope for a person caught up in homosexuality to be changed. I understand you don’t like the label, but it is a biblical label. I was a sexually immoral person. That is a label that used to describe me. Jesus changed me and I am thankful that He did.
Paul,
I’m puzzled by your pair of comments. First, you talk about homosexuals not being able to be saved, but when you quote Scripture it talks about those who practice homosexuality.
That is two different things. A person can have same sex attraction (being homosexual) without ever acting on it (other than resisting temptation). Just the same way that a person with opposite sex attraction may never act on it (other than resisting temptation).
The attraction may or may not change, just like other kind of drives may be increased or decreased.
The challenge is how does the church help those who are tempted with sexual sin grow to make resisting it easier. And to help when it is not resisted.
Paul: I believe all sinners can change. Imperfectly in this life.
I don’t believe homosexuals are under a command to become heterosexuals. I believe they are under a command to be celibate or live in covenant marriage.
If a person testifies they have changed in the area of sexuality to more resemble the image of God in Jesus, then I believe them.