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	<title>Comments on: What Did Jesus Know? (And How Does It Matter?)</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Beidler</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-2#comment-519563</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Beidler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great post, Michael.  Worthy of a Facebook link to drive people to your website and generate controversâ€”er, conversation.  ;-)

I do think this question about how human Jesus was should also be asked in regard to the Bible.  I think we both agree that the Scriptures are God-breathed, but there may be a difference as to how we view the Bible as inspired and to what extent.  (I&#039;m a newcomer and thus unfamiliar with where you stand on most issues, although you&#039;ve already made an impact on me with your definition of &quot;post-evangelical.&quot;)  

While I believe that the Bible is a reliable testimony to the work of God in the lives of men, I don&#039;t desire to ascribe to the Scriptures what it was never intended to be, i.e., a textbook of infallible science and antediluvian history.  The more I&#039;ve dug into what the Bible meant to its original hearers and/or readers, the more I&#039;ve drifted away from mechanical inspiration and &quot;total inerrancy.&quot;  I&#039;ve also begun to see the Bible as &quot;incarnational,&quot; that is, Christ-like:  fully divine yet fully human.  (Yes, I&#039;ve read Peter Enns&#039; work.)

While Christ possessed a fallible physical body (subject to the passage of time, hunger, pain, death, etc.) and limited intellect (there are a number of instances of this related in the Gospels that people have mentioned above), He also possessed a Spirit-filled will as a result of His divine nature and origin.  I&#039;m even inclined to recognize that Jesus (and Paul) as well possessed mistaken concepts of the cosmos and science, influenced heavily by his (their) Jewish heritage and Platonic philosophy.  But that&#039;s nothing to worry about.  Indeed, it&#039;s a natural expectation.

Like Christ, the Bible possesses purely human qualities (ancient scientific concepts and etiological history), yet the Spirit also speaks through the fallible vessel it is to impart divine theological truths, which are infallible.  Cannot Truth (with a capital &quot;T&quot;) be imparted through fallible vessels?  Was Paul or Peter equally inspired in everything they said and did?  The book of Acts and Paul&#039;s letters (e.g., 1 Corinthians&#039; discussion of marriage) would declare otherwise.  So why should the Bible be any different?

We go through life every day, taking in information from non-divine sources that we deem reliable (or unreliable) to various degrees.  We trust things in which, theologically speaking, we should have no business placing our trust, but we do; to do otherwise would be to cease living.  (That is to say, we routinely trust and rely on demonstrably errant and fallible things and people.)  As mature Christians, you and I have learned to adopt a continuously prayerful attitude, always listening to the whisper of the Spirit, and taking comfort that He is ultimately in charge.  But is that whisper always the Spirit&#039;s?  Jeremiah 17:9 states, &quot;The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?&quot;  There is something to be recognized here:  Sometimes, we misinterpret our own guidance for that of the Spirit&#039;s.  Therefore, are we not fallible vessels through whom the infallible Spirit speaks, both to others and ourselves, and which, at times, can be desperately wrong?

So, where does that leave me?  With a fallible book imparting infallible theological truths.  My faith is all the more deeper and richer for recognizing this, and my faith is also more flexible, able to bend like a reed amidst life&#039;s intellectual challenges.  If anything, I could say that I have more faith than most.   I don&#039;t trust in the Bible because the Bible tells me to.  I trust the Bible as a reliable source of moral guidance (2 Tim 3:16-17) because I&#039;ve had an encounter with the living Christ.  His Spirit led me from the brink of eternal death into eternal life, and to dismiss the Bible as theologically unreliable would be to quench the message which the Spirit continues to speak thousands of years after they were first written.  Just because the Bible contains, from a modern scientific and historical perspective, inaccuracies, it does not mean that truth cannot be imparted through it, and infallible truth at that!  The Bible IS alive, even within my paradigm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Michael.  Worthy of a Facebook link to drive people to your website and generate controversâ€”er, conversation.  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I do think this question about how human Jesus was should also be asked in regard to the Bible.  I think we both agree that the Scriptures are God-breathed, but there may be a difference as to how we view the Bible as inspired and to what extent.  (I&#8217;m a newcomer and thus unfamiliar with where you stand on most issues, although you&#8217;ve already made an impact on me with your definition of &#8220;post-evangelical.&#8221;)  </p>
<p>While I believe that the Bible is a reliable testimony to the work of God in the lives of men, I don&#8217;t desire to ascribe to the Scriptures what it was never intended to be, i.e., a textbook of infallible science and antediluvian history.  The more I&#8217;ve dug into what the Bible meant to its original hearers and/or readers, the more I&#8217;ve drifted away from mechanical inspiration and &#8220;total inerrancy.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve also begun to see the Bible as &#8220;incarnational,&#8221; that is, Christ-like:  fully divine yet fully human.  (Yes, I&#8217;ve read Peter Enns&#8217; work.)</p>
<p>While Christ possessed a fallible physical body (subject to the passage of time, hunger, pain, death, etc.) and limited intellect (there are a number of instances of this related in the Gospels that people have mentioned above), He also possessed a Spirit-filled will as a result of His divine nature and origin.  I&#8217;m even inclined to recognize that Jesus (and Paul) as well possessed mistaken concepts of the cosmos and science, influenced heavily by his (their) Jewish heritage and Platonic philosophy.  But that&#8217;s nothing to worry about.  Indeed, it&#8217;s a natural expectation.</p>
<p>Like Christ, the Bible possesses purely human qualities (ancient scientific concepts and etiological history), yet the Spirit also speaks through the fallible vessel it is to impart divine theological truths, which are infallible.  Cannot Truth (with a capital &#8220;T&#8221;) be imparted through fallible vessels?  Was Paul or Peter equally inspired in everything they said and did?  The book of Acts and Paul&#8217;s letters (e.g., 1 Corinthians&#8217; discussion of marriage) would declare otherwise.  So why should the Bible be any different?</p>
<p>We go through life every day, taking in information from non-divine sources that we deem reliable (or unreliable) to various degrees.  We trust things in which, theologically speaking, we should have no business placing our trust, but we do; to do otherwise would be to cease living.  (That is to say, we routinely trust and rely on demonstrably errant and fallible things and people.)  As mature Christians, you and I have learned to adopt a continuously prayerful attitude, always listening to the whisper of the Spirit, and taking comfort that He is ultimately in charge.  But is that whisper always the Spirit&#8217;s?  Jeremiah 17:9 states, &#8220;The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?&#8221;  There is something to be recognized here:  Sometimes, we misinterpret our own guidance for that of the Spirit&#8217;s.  Therefore, are we not fallible vessels through whom the infallible Spirit speaks, both to others and ourselves, and which, at times, can be desperately wrong?</p>
<p>So, where does that leave me?  With a fallible book imparting infallible theological truths.  My faith is all the more deeper and richer for recognizing this, and my faith is also more flexible, able to bend like a reed amidst life&#8217;s intellectual challenges.  If anything, I could say that I have more faith than most.   I don&#8217;t trust in the Bible because the Bible tells me to.  I trust the Bible as a reliable source of moral guidance (2 Tim 3:16-17) because I&#8217;ve had an encounter with the living Christ.  His Spirit led me from the brink of eternal death into eternal life, and to dismiss the Bible as theologically unreliable would be to quench the message which the Spirit continues to speak thousands of years after they were first written.  Just because the Bible contains, from a modern scientific and historical perspective, inaccuracies, it does not mean that truth cannot be imparted through it, and infallible truth at that!  The Bible IS alive, even within my paradigm.</p>
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		<title>By: Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-2#comment-519506</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-519506</guid>
		<description>From my observations, toddlers sometimes commit acts which unambiguously qualify as sins. They premeditate the act and they cover it up afterwards, thus acknowledging that they understand the wrongness of the act.

For instance, my daughter of 2 will sneak into the pantry, take a stack of graham crackers, hide behind the closet door and quietly eat them. All the marks of a sin! Theft, deceit, obstruction of justice, contempt for authority.

Not much different than Eve&#039;s apple, if you ask me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my observations, toddlers sometimes commit acts which unambiguously qualify as sins. They premeditate the act and they cover it up afterwards, thus acknowledging that they understand the wrongness of the act.</p>
<p>For instance, my daughter of 2 will sneak into the pantry, take a stack of graham crackers, hide behind the closet door and quietly eat them. All the marks of a sin! Theft, deceit, obstruction of justice, contempt for authority.</p>
<p>Not much different than Eve&#8217;s apple, if you ask me.</p>
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		<title>By: What Did Jesus Know? (and How Does it Matter?) &#124; Internetmonk.Com</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-2#comment-519405</link>
		<dc:creator>What Did Jesus Know? (and How Does it Matter?) &#124; Internetmonk.Com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-519405</guid>
		<description>[...] The Greek word used in Luke 7:9 also is translated as â€œmarvel,â€ â€œadmire,â€ and â€œwonderâ€ so it doesn&#8217;t necessarily have the implications you might think it does if you looked only at the NIV. &#8230;.. I agree, Jimmy . I believe the Father allowed Jesus&#8217; mind to be enlightened to the point that when he read the scriptures, he fully understood them and fully understood his part in accomplishing all that God willed. He could have chosen NOT to do the will of the Father,but he &#8230;Continue [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Greek word used in Luke 7:9 also is translated as â€œmarvel,â€ â€œadmire,â€ and â€œwonderâ€ so it doesn&#8217;t necessarily have the implications you might think it does if you looked only at the NIV. &#8230;.. I agree, Jimmy . I believe the Father allowed Jesus&#8217; mind to be enlightened to the point that when he read the scriptures, he fully understood them and fully understood his part in accomplishing all that God willed. He could have chosen NOT to do the will of the Father,but he &#8230;Continue [...]</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-1#comment-519145</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-519145</guid>
		<description>I think your idea of &quot;greater things&quot; is bigger than Jesus was thinking when He said that. That prophecy was fulfilled within the pages of the bible.

Peter got 3,000 converts at once; Jesus barely held on to 11. Peter was healing people with his shadow, and Paul was healing people with handkerchiefs. Paul preached the gospel to kings and the emperor, whereas Jesus never left the Middle East till He ascended.

As to whether that stuff happens nowadays, of course it does. I can&#039;t help it if you haven&#039;t heard the testimonies. I understand being skeptical of some of them, &#039;cause sometimes charismatics can be naive and gullible. But not all of them are, and not every miracle story is an urban legend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your idea of &#8220;greater things&#8221; is bigger than Jesus was thinking when He said that. That prophecy was fulfilled within the pages of the bible.</p>
<p>Peter got 3,000 converts at once; Jesus barely held on to 11. Peter was healing people with his shadow, and Paul was healing people with handkerchiefs. Paul preached the gospel to kings and the emperor, whereas Jesus never left the Middle East till He ascended.</p>
<p>As to whether that stuff happens nowadays, of course it does. I can&#8217;t help it if you haven&#8217;t heard the testimonies. I understand being skeptical of some of them, &#8217;cause sometimes charismatics can be naive and gullible. But not all of them are, and not every miracle story is an urban legend.</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-2#comment-519113</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-519113</guid>
		<description>Jenny, personally, I don&#039;t think a toddler is capable of sinning.  I know someone would want to pin me down on this and say, &quot;What age, then?&quot;  I leave that to God to decide when someone is of an age to sin, except I will say, &quot;Not toddlers.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jenny, personally, I don&#8217;t think a toddler is capable of sinning.  I know someone would want to pin me down on this and say, &#8220;What age, then?&#8221;  I leave that to God to decide when someone is of an age to sin, except I will say, &#8220;Not toddlers.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-1#comment-519111</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-519111</guid>
		<description>I agree with you, Tim.  I read the words that Jesus said we will be able to do even greater things than he did and I wonder, &quot;Where? When? Who?&quot;  Surely if it took great faith to do greater things, some of the people with great faith through the ages would have done greater things.  I think the apostle Peter raised someone who had died and maybe Paul and the apostles also healed people according to Acts.  And I think some healings go on to this day.  But it still seems that no one has done greater things than Jesus.  I don&#039;t know what that would look like.  I know some folks say that it means things like when people help to bring peace to a warring nation.  Or people see a change in someone who seemed incorrigible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, Tim.  I read the words that Jesus said we will be able to do even greater things than he did and I wonder, &#8220;Where? When? Who?&#8221;  Surely if it took great faith to do greater things, some of the people with great faith through the ages would have done greater things.  I think the apostle Peter raised someone who had died and maybe Paul and the apostles also healed people according to Acts.  And I think some healings go on to this day.  But it still seems that no one has done greater things than Jesus.  I don&#8217;t know what that would look like.  I know some folks say that it means things like when people help to bring peace to a warring nation.  Or people see a change in someone who seemed incorrigible.</p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-2#comment-519077</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-519077</guid>
		<description>Looking at the gospels, particularly John&#039;s gospel, it seems to me that Jesus was living moment by moment on information and direction provided by the Father through the Holy Spirit -- doing only what the Father told Him to do and saying only what the Father told Him to say. Completely human yet sinless, Jesus relied utterly on this line of communication and power from the Father. So, I think the answer to most of the questions you pose here, Michael, depend on whether or not the Father was bestowing absolute omniscience on Jesus while He was bound in mortal flesh. Just from scriptural evidence, I don&#039;t think this was the case. I don&#039;t think the Father burdened Jesus&#039;s human brain with the movements and relative positions of every single particle in the universe or with every event, both big and small, that would occur throughout the course of human history. I think the Father gave Jesus all the information He needed to fullfill His mission and to pass on the information that He wanted to pass on to us. I believe Jesus was fully God during His earthly ministry in the sense that He fully reflected the nature and character of the Father. However, I don&#039;t think that He was having to contemplate and monitor the movements of everything in the physical universe while He was taking an afternoon nap or conversing with His disciples. I suspect He was more than happy to leave all that up to His Father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the gospels, particularly John&#8217;s gospel, it seems to me that Jesus was living moment by moment on information and direction provided by the Father through the Holy Spirit &#8212; doing only what the Father told Him to do and saying only what the Father told Him to say. Completely human yet sinless, Jesus relied utterly on this line of communication and power from the Father. So, I think the answer to most of the questions you pose here, Michael, depend on whether or not the Father was bestowing absolute omniscience on Jesus while He was bound in mortal flesh. Just from scriptural evidence, I don&#8217;t think this was the case. I don&#8217;t think the Father burdened Jesus&#8217;s human brain with the movements and relative positions of every single particle in the universe or with every event, both big and small, that would occur throughout the course of human history. I think the Father gave Jesus all the information He needed to fullfill His mission and to pass on the information that He wanted to pass on to us. I believe Jesus was fully God during His earthly ministry in the sense that He fully reflected the nature and character of the Father. However, I don&#8217;t think that He was having to contemplate and monitor the movements of everything in the physical universe while He was taking an afternoon nap or conversing with His disciples. I suspect He was more than happy to leave all that up to His Father.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremyjanson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-1#comment-518908</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremyjanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-518908</guid>
		<description>Mostly I&#039;m making a point about reading the bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mostly I&#8217;m making a point about reading the bible.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-1#comment-518803</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-518803</guid>
		<description>As a mum, I wonder what a sinless toddler looked like. What happens with that classic developmental &quot;no&quot; stage? Does a sinless toddler throw a tantrum? I guess not....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a mum, I wonder what a sinless toddler looked like. What happens with that classic developmental &#8220;no&#8221; stage? Does a sinless toddler throw a tantrum? I guess not&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim W</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-did-jesus-know-and-how-does-it-matter/comment-page-1#comment-518802</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5017#comment-518802</guid>
		<description>&quot;The reason why we can do what He can do and more (John 14:12) ...&quot;

But we can&#039;t do what he could do, we can&#039;t do anything close to what he did. No one has! I know Jesus said that we would do greater things that he, but this has never happened. I don&#039;t like to call Jesus wrong, but it seems pretty obvious to me that his prophecy didn&#039;t come true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The reason why we can do what He can do and more (John 14:12) &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>But we can&#8217;t do what he could do, we can&#8217;t do anything close to what he did. No one has! I know Jesus said that we would do greater things that he, but this has never happened. I don&#8217;t like to call Jesus wrong, but it seems pretty obvious to me that his prophecy didn&#8217;t come true.</p>
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