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	<title>Comments on: What About the Flag in the Sanctuary? (Or How To Get Fired Really Fast.)</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Sager</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-377155</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Sager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Not to resurrect a long-dead post, but I&#039;m going to resurrect a long dead post.  ;-)  I found it very thoughtful and, honestly, I&#039;m glad I&#039;m not the only person thinking about it.

My thought on the matter comes from experience.  In the past, I was a die-hard flag-waver.  Then I met Christ, who led me out of that.

About a year or so ago I expressed to the congregation (with whom I had been meeting for several years) how incongruous it was for the members of the kingdom of God to fly the flag of a worldly kingdom.  This happened during a part of the service where people could ask for prayer requests and optionally say whatever else they felt needed to be said.  Though I stated it strongly, it was spoken off-hand in the context of asking for prayer not to be critical of my brothers and sisters for their support of war, soldiers, and country).  At any rate, a few minutes later the pastor started his opening prayer and a woman in the congregation of about 30 people interrupted, verbally attacked me (saying many of the things the latest responses have said), and stormed out of the sanctuary.

Here&#039;s the point:  For something to elicit that kind of response, it is obviously much more than what people claim it to be.  They say, &quot;It isn&#039;t idolatry, just appreciation, etc.&quot;  But the truth of their heart is revealed by their actions when you tamper with their idol (&quot;Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks&quot;).  If a person becomes angry over the removal of something they claim not to be devoted to, are they really so disattached?

On a side note, let&#039;s dispense with the half-truth of the &quot;people who died for us/our freedom/etc.&quot; euphemism.  Inasmuch as they died in the process, they were actually trying to kill for you and your freedom (&quot;I don&#039;t want to die for my country.  I want to make the other guy die for his.&quot;).  Either way, don&#039;t include me in that number because I&#039;d much rather they had died bringing the gospel to their enemies.  Read Mark Twain&#039;s &quot;The War Prayer&quot; if you haven&#039;t already.  At least be honest about what you are saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to resurrect a long-dead post, but I&#8217;m going to resurrect a long dead post.  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />   I found it very thoughtful and, honestly, I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m not the only person thinking about it.</p>
<p>My thought on the matter comes from experience.  In the past, I was a die-hard flag-waver.  Then I met Christ, who led me out of that.</p>
<p>About a year or so ago I expressed to the congregation (with whom I had been meeting for several years) how incongruous it was for the members of the kingdom of God to fly the flag of a worldly kingdom.  This happened during a part of the service where people could ask for prayer requests and optionally say whatever else they felt needed to be said.  Though I stated it strongly, it was spoken off-hand in the context of asking for prayer not to be critical of my brothers and sisters for their support of war, soldiers, and country).  At any rate, a few minutes later the pastor started his opening prayer and a woman in the congregation of about 30 people interrupted, verbally attacked me (saying many of the things the latest responses have said), and stormed out of the sanctuary.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the point:  For something to elicit that kind of response, it is obviously much more than what people claim it to be.  They say, &#8220;It isn&#8217;t idolatry, just appreciation, etc.&#8221;  But the truth of their heart is revealed by their actions when you tamper with their idol (&#8221;Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks&#8221;).  If a person becomes angry over the removal of something they claim not to be devoted to, are they really so disattached?</p>
<p>On a side note, let&#8217;s dispense with the half-truth of the &#8220;people who died for us/our freedom/etc.&#8221; euphemism.  Inasmuch as they died in the process, they were actually trying to kill for you and your freedom (&#8221;I don&#8217;t want to die for my country.  I want to make the other guy die for his.&#8221;).  Either way, don&#8217;t include me in that number because I&#8217;d much rather they had died bringing the gospel to their enemies.  Read Mark Twain&#8217;s &#8220;The War Prayer&#8221; if you haven&#8217;t already.  At least be honest about what you are saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-184703</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have thought about this before and have been on staff in churches that had flags as well as a church that didn&#039;t have flags.  I just have to say that most of you need to relax. My grandfather would have called this &quot;building a mountain out of a mole hill.&quot;  I don&#039;t really think anyone feels that being a patriot means putting America before Christ.  I also don&#039;t think that if the flags are removed that it means that your church doesn&#039;t support the freedoms our forefathers died to keep.  Just relax and don&#039;t take yourselves (and others) so seriously. I mean, just because the one church didn&#039;t have a US flag didn&#039;t mean that everyone in that church was Democrat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have thought about this before and have been on staff in churches that had flags as well as a church that didn&#8217;t have flags.  I just have to say that most of you need to relax. My grandfather would have called this &#8220;building a mountain out of a mole hill.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t really think anyone feels that being a patriot means putting America before Christ.  I also don&#8217;t think that if the flags are removed that it means that your church doesn&#8217;t support the freedoms our forefathers died to keep.  Just relax and don&#8217;t take yourselves (and others) so seriously. I mean, just because the one church didn&#8217;t have a US flag didn&#8217;t mean that everyone in that church was Democrat.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-182615</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast#comment-182615</guid>
		<description>I think Eva expresses the sentimental reason people want flags in church--they connect it with service to the country. Putting a flag in church is for some like putting a flag on a veteran&#039;s casket. (I don&#039;t assume veterans who prefer a church pall with its cross are not proud of their service. But funerals are a whole other can of worms.) 

The flag, Eva says, is a reminder of service and sacrifice.  But why in the sanctuary---and as a permanent fixture? Why is it essential to a church? 

When I was a child there was an emotional debate about whether to put a Christmas tree in the sanctuary rather than to keep it in the fellowship hall where it had been at Christmas. The argument against a sanctuary tree, which I did not follow as a child, was that the tree was not particularly Christian, which it isn&#039;t. (I&#039;ve wondered if the Chrismon tree movement isn&#039;t a response to the truth of the allegation). But I now at least understand the purity of their intention not to confuse the worship of God with secular symbols of pagan origin.

Don&#039;t get me wrong. I am not against Chrismon trees. But now that I think about it I would even today be against a tree with silly, fuuny decorations-- or a Frosty in the creche. 

We may have all sorts of mental justifications and qualifications and limits on the significance of a symbol in the worship space.(For instance we may think to ourselves &quot;We are not saying that our nation is more important than the Kingdom of God.&quot;)  But symbolic objects have a way of generating their own significance over time. Architecture speaks. The memory of symbols gets charged by things that have nothing to do with God, and then a generation later they can turn on the theological priorities we had in our generation. Be careful what you put up in a church.

Remember the snake on a pole in the temple? 

The flag is not an icon of God but of the nation. In itself it reminds us only of our citizenship on earth and says nothing of our citizenship in heaven. We cannot justify anything more than a temporary, passing presence of a national flag in the house of God, perhaps on days we thank God for our country or pray corporately to confess its sins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Eva expresses the sentimental reason people want flags in church&#8211;they connect it with service to the country. Putting a flag in church is for some like putting a flag on a veteran&#8217;s casket. (I don&#8217;t assume veterans who prefer a church pall with its cross are not proud of their service. But funerals are a whole other can of worms.) </p>
<p>The flag, Eva says, is a reminder of service and sacrifice.  But why in the sanctuary&#8212;and as a permanent fixture? Why is it essential to a church? </p>
<p>When I was a child there was an emotional debate about whether to put a Christmas tree in the sanctuary rather than to keep it in the fellowship hall where it had been at Christmas. The argument against a sanctuary tree, which I did not follow as a child, was that the tree was not particularly Christian, which it isn&#8217;t. (I&#8217;ve wondered if the Chrismon tree movement isn&#8217;t a response to the truth of the allegation). But I now at least understand the purity of their intention not to confuse the worship of God with secular symbols of pagan origin.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong. I am not against Chrismon trees. But now that I think about it I would even today be against a tree with silly, fuuny decorations&#8211; or a Frosty in the creche. </p>
<p>We may have all sorts of mental justifications and qualifications and limits on the significance of a symbol in the worship space.(For instance we may think to ourselves &#8220;We are not saying that our nation is more important than the Kingdom of God.&#8221;)  But symbolic objects have a way of generating their own significance over time. Architecture speaks. The memory of symbols gets charged by things that have nothing to do with God, and then a generation later they can turn on the theological priorities we had in our generation. Be careful what you put up in a church.</p>
<p>Remember the snake on a pole in the temple? </p>
<p>The flag is not an icon of God but of the nation. In itself it reminds us only of our citizenship on earth and says nothing of our citizenship in heaven. We cannot justify anything more than a temporary, passing presence of a national flag in the house of God, perhaps on days we thank God for our country or pray corporately to confess its sins.</p>
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		<title>By: Eva Haddick</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-146649</link>
		<dc:creator>Eva Haddick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sometimes, like today when I read the many comments endorsing the removal of flags from the church sanctuary, I&#039;m ashamed of the supposedly intellectual in the christian community.  Don&#039;t you know the flag display doesn&#039;t mean we (as christians and military folks) don&#039;t consider it an idol to be worshipped?  We who DO want flags to remain simply want to acknowledge that we appreciate those who served our country, (some giving their lives)as well as those continuing to serve and maintain freedom&#039;s course.  Mark me as a believer who is a proud, even a FLAG-WAVING American who loves my God and my country. And, no, I don&#039;t think America is perfect, but she is MY country! When the flags are taken from my church sanctuary, I&#039;ll know it&#039;s time to find another place of worship!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes, like today when I read the many comments endorsing the removal of flags from the church sanctuary, I&#8217;m ashamed of the supposedly intellectual in the christian community.  Don&#8217;t you know the flag display doesn&#8217;t mean we (as christians and military folks) don&#8217;t consider it an idol to be worshipped?  We who DO want flags to remain simply want to acknowledge that we appreciate those who served our country, (some giving their lives)as well as those continuing to serve and maintain freedom&#8217;s course.  Mark me as a believer who is a proud, even a FLAG-WAVING American who loves my God and my country. And, no, I don&#8217;t think America is perfect, but she is MY country! When the flags are taken from my church sanctuary, I&#8217;ll know it&#8217;s time to find another place of worship!</p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-98996</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I know this is an old post, but I just stumbled across it.  I am extremely &quot;proud to be an American, where at least I know I&#039;m free...&quot; 
;)
But our Lord is changing a lot of my perspectives of what that should and shouldn&#039;t look like as a member of His kingdom.
I&#039;m finishing up Gregory Boyd&#039;s &quot;The Myth of a Christian Nation.&quot;  WOW!  You&#039;ve probably already read it, but if you haven&#039;t, check it out.  Good stuff!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this is an old post, but I just stumbled across it.  I am extremely &#8220;proud to be an American, where at least I know I&#8217;m free&#8230;&#8221;<br />
 <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
But our Lord is changing a lot of my perspectives of what that should and shouldn&#8217;t look like as a member of His kingdom.<br />
I&#8217;m finishing up Gregory Boyd&#8217;s &#8220;The Myth of a Christian Nation.&#8221;  WOW!  You&#8217;ve probably already read it, but if you haven&#8217;t, check it out.  Good stuff!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-97048</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>God gave us those freedoms. The Christian can honor the sacrifice of his countryman, if appropriate, but in a worship center, we honor God as the giver of all good gifts. Not America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God gave us those freedoms. The Christian can honor the sacrifice of his countryman, if appropriate, but in a worship center, we honor God as the giver of all good gifts. Not America.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry Hundley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-97047</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Hundley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The only point I would like to bring up,

I am a Christian 100%, I am also American 100%

If we would not have fought the Revolutionary War, and most wars thereafter, would we even be having our &quot;Freedom of Religion&quot; in this country,  would we be hiding is some small dark cave or hidden room with a candle reading our Bibles or Praying to our Heavenly Father???

Having/flying the American Flag in the Church, regardless of your beliefs would only signify one thing,
&quot;It took a lot of pre-Americans, and a whole lot more True Blooded American dying in wars to keep our great Nation FREE, so would could enjoy our, &quot;Freedom of Religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only point I would like to bring up,</p>
<p>I am a Christian 100%, I am also American 100%</p>
<p>If we would not have fought the Revolutionary War, and most wars thereafter, would we even be having our &#8220;Freedom of Religion&#8221; in this country,  would we be hiding is some small dark cave or hidden room with a candle reading our Bibles or Praying to our Heavenly Father???</p>
<p>Having/flying the American Flag in the Church, regardless of your beliefs would only signify one thing,<br />
&#8220;It took a lot of pre-Americans, and a whole lot more True Blooded American dying in wars to keep our great Nation FREE, so would could enjoy our, &#8220;Freedom of Religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-96784</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There was MAJOR upheaval in our church a few years back when our then-new senior pastor moved the flags to just outside the sanctuary.  There were people who wanted to force a congregational vote to overrule the pastor and elder board.  There was talk of how the pastor and elders had made an unwarranted power-grab by making such Sweeping Changes without congregational approval.  It got ugly.

Thankfully, the pastor was backed by the elders, and they refused to rise to the accusations of power-grabbing, ruining congregationalism, etc.  that were thrown around.  The issue is probably still simmering along for a few, but it has faded to the background.

Thanks for your good post, Michael!

Laura</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was MAJOR upheaval in our church a few years back when our then-new senior pastor moved the flags to just outside the sanctuary.  There were people who wanted to force a congregational vote to overrule the pastor and elder board.  There was talk of how the pastor and elders had made an unwarranted power-grab by making such Sweeping Changes without congregational approval.  It got ugly.</p>
<p>Thankfully, the pastor was backed by the elders, and they refused to rise to the accusations of power-grabbing, ruining congregationalism, etc.  that were thrown around.  The issue is probably still simmering along for a few, but it has faded to the background.</p>
<p>Thanks for your good post, Michael!</p>
<p>Laura</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Schaeffer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-96455</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Schaeffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wow...we are so protected from the Christian/ patriotic culture out her in Churchless/ Christianless Seattle.  

Since we are non-denominational and live very far from the Bible betl, we were able to build our church, doctrine, ecclesiology, worship (including sanctuary asthetics - flags, etc..) based on conviction from the Bible about preaching the Gospel, being the body of Christ, and relating to the culture around us (1 Cor 9).

In Seattle I can&#039;t think of anything less udnerstanding of the culture or more alienating to those who might be wander in our doors then to put an american and/ or christian flag in our church (except maybe a Nascar flag).

A Starbucks Flag?  Now that might fly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230;we are so protected from the Christian/ patriotic culture out her in Churchless/ Christianless Seattle.  </p>
<p>Since we are non-denominational and live very far from the Bible betl, we were able to build our church, doctrine, ecclesiology, worship (including sanctuary asthetics &#8211; flags, etc..) based on conviction from the Bible about preaching the Gospel, being the body of Christ, and relating to the culture around us (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Cor+9" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Cor 9">1 Cor 9</a>).</p>
<p>In Seattle I can&#8217;t think of anything less udnerstanding of the culture or more alienating to those who might be wander in our doors then to put an american and/ or christian flag in our church (except maybe a Nascar flag).</p>
<p>A Starbucks Flag?  Now that might fly!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/what-about-the-flag-in-the-sanctuary-or-how-to-get-fired-really-fast/comment-page-1#comment-94185</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 04:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What is the &quot;Christian flag&quot;?

I read recently of a sociological study that coused a profound disturbance because it showed that a high proportion of Muslims put loyalty to God above loyalty to their country. A much lower proportion of Christians did so, so perhaps those flags are not empty symbolism, but full of symbolism. 

Also, I gather that in America &quot;separation of church and state&quot; is an important principle, so if you have to get the Ten Commandments out of courthouses, get the flags out of the churches. 

Having said that, I come from a church that often displays the Greek flag (even in South Africa), though at least outside the temple, not inside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the &#8220;Christian flag&#8221;?</p>
<p>I read recently of a sociological study that coused a profound disturbance because it showed that a high proportion of Muslims put loyalty to God above loyalty to their country. A much lower proportion of Christians did so, so perhaps those flags are not empty symbolism, but full of symbolism. </p>
<p>Also, I gather that in America &#8220;separation of church and state&#8221; is an important principle, so if you have to get the Ten Commandments out of courthouses, get the flags out of the churches. </p>
<p>Having said that, I come from a church that often displays the Greek flag (even in South Africa), though at least outside the temple, not inside.</p>
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