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	<title>Comments on: Weekend File 11:03:06: Site News, Derb&#8217;s Loss of Faith and The Passion of the Haggard</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: notarev</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8319</link>
		<dc:creator>notarev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8319</guid>
		<description>"Evangelicalism wants same-sex issues to be political. They are not. They are issues about who you want to have sex with, and why. In other words, they are deeply human issues, for deeply broken human beings who need a deeply broken Christ. What comes out on the other side is faith and compassion, not political victory or cultural influence."

Yes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Evangelicalism wants same-sex issues to be political. They are not. They are issues about who you want to have sex with, and why. In other words, they are deeply human issues, for deeply broken human beings who need a deeply broken Christ. What comes out on the other side is faith and compassion, not political victory or cultural influence.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes!</p>
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		<title>By: wfred</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8302</link>
		<dc:creator>wfred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 22:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8302</guid>
		<description>Regarding the "Dawkins vs Haggard" YouTube video: I agree, it's painful to watch. Haggard does come across as somewhat of an ignoramus-- and he's definitely ungracious towards Dawkins. I've long appreciated the ministry of Ravi Zacharias; watching Ted Haggard "debate" Richard Dawkins has only strengthened my respect for Ravi's work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the &#8220;Dawkins vs Haggard&#8221; YouTube video: I agree, it&#8217;s painful to watch. Haggard does come across as somewhat of an ignoramus&#8211; and he&#8217;s definitely ungracious towards Dawkins. I&#8217;ve long appreciated the ministry of Ravi Zacharias; watching Ted Haggard &#8220;debate&#8221; Richard Dawkins has only strengthened my respect for Ravi&#8217;s work.</p>
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		<title>By: The Schooley Files</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8292</link>
		<dc:creator>The Schooley Files</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 11:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8292</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Ted Haggard Scandal: How will we, and how should we, respond?...&lt;/strong&gt;

I wonder if the body of Christ as a whole will ever learn how to deal with the moral failures of its leaders. The predictable reactions have already begun. First, separation into two camps: Shoot the Wounded and Excuse the Sinner....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Ted Haggard Scandal: How will we, and how should we, respond?&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I wonder if the body of Christ as a whole will ever learn how to deal with the moral failures of its leaders. The predictable reactions have already begun. First, separation into two camps: Shoot the Wounded and Excuse the Sinner&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Maxentius</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8291</link>
		<dc:creator>Maxentius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 11:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8291</guid>
		<description>As a former Evangelical (and not POST-evangelical!!) I am entirely commited to pray for Ted Haggard.

But, honestly, I would be easier for me to do so if he was not a perfect representative of a spirituality based on consumerism where aggresiveness is seen as a mark of godliness and "holier that thou" attitudes are too often the norm...

Go on his official web-site and loook at his recommanded reading-list...

Talking about books, see you at your local Lifeway Christian store in two years to buy Ted's book "The-story-of-my-restoration-thanks-to-my-buddy-Jesus-and-my-wonderful-wife"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former Evangelical (and not POST-evangelical!!) I am entirely commited to pray for Ted Haggard.</p>
<p>But, honestly, I would be easier for me to do so if he was not a perfect representative of a spirituality based on consumerism where aggresiveness is seen as a mark of godliness and &#8220;holier that thou&#8221; attitudes are too often the norm&#8230;</p>
<p>Go on his official web-site and loook at his recommanded reading-list&#8230;</p>
<p>Talking about books, see you at your local Lifeway Christian store in two years to buy Ted&#8217;s book &#8220;The-story-of-my-restoration-thanks-to-my-buddy-Jesus-and-my-wonderful-wife&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Togenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8289</link>
		<dc:creator>Togenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 22:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8289</guid>
		<description>Oh, the YouTube business is here: 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0&#38;mode=related&#38;search=
(not an endorsement! but it's a take that many non-Christians are going to have on Haggard, and on Evangelicals for that matter); and to add there is a grand article by literary critic and theorist, Terry Eggleton - definitely not "pro-Evangelical" - places Dawkins in context and rather rakes him over the coals for his biases. The article is quite good.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, the YouTube business is here:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0&amp;mode=related&amp;search=" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0&amp;mode=related&amp;search=</a><br />
(not an endorsement! but it&#8217;s a take that many non-Christians are going to have on Haggard, and on Evangelicals for that matter); and to add there is a grand article by literary critic and theorist, Terry Eggleton - definitely not &#8220;pro-Evangelical&#8221; - places Dawkins in context and rather rakes him over the coals for his biases. The article is quite good.<br />
<a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Togenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8287</link>
		<dc:creator>Togenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 21:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8287</guid>
		<description>Firstly, I feel it necessary to point out, as you have that the allegations might be untrue. I hate the media rumor mill, and let's give things time before we assume someone has done something.

The allegations are shameful, yes, but doesn't much of the shame come from the pretenses involved?
-myths of purity (That a Christian, much less a leader, may not struggle with certain problems. That there are magical sins.)
-a desire for a leader or even father figure (A church with 10,000 people! Such concentrated power and focus on one person.)
-the politicization of sex (And how could this not come home to roost? We are h-u-m-a-n).

I think the world will learn a great deal from the broader Evangelical community's and specifically Haggard's church's reaction to the issue. Will it be with honesty? harsh overreaction? defensiveness and downplay? a change of the subject? (In other words, what one would expect our political and bunsiness leaders to do?) I am a Christian (Anglican) but not an Evangelical, and I hope that the reaction is healthy, honest, just, and proportionate. 

All I know about Haggard is what I've seen on TV (political family values stuff, rather saddening rallies), and, interestingly, something on YouTube, in which Haggard looks like a world class buffoon (not all of which can be attributed to editing; it's painful). He is apparently a Young Earth creationist (why are so many Evanglicals commited to this?!) and is trying to speak with Richard Dawkins (truly a world class cad, but still brilliant in his way) about science, etc. It's wholly dismaying to watch, as the man is an extremely important leader who will influence politics, and even science funding and research. Enough to confirm all prejudices one might have of the Bible Belt (even though they they might be incorrect).

God bless

Troy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly, I feel it necessary to point out, as you have that the allegations might be untrue. I hate the media rumor mill, and let&#8217;s give things time before we assume someone has done something.</p>
<p>The allegations are shameful, yes, but doesn&#8217;t much of the shame come from the pretenses involved?<br />
-myths of purity (That a Christian, much less a leader, may not struggle with certain problems. That there are magical sins.)<br />
-a desire for a leader or even father figure (A church with 10,000 people! Such concentrated power and focus on one person.)<br />
-the politicization of sex (And how could this not come home to roost? We are h-u-m-a-n).</p>
<p>I think the world will learn a great deal from the broader Evangelical community&#8217;s and specifically Haggard&#8217;s church&#8217;s reaction to the issue. Will it be with honesty? harsh overreaction? defensiveness and downplay? a change of the subject? (In other words, what one would expect our political and bunsiness leaders to do?) I am a Christian (Anglican) but not an Evangelical, and I hope that the reaction is healthy, honest, just, and proportionate. </p>
<p>All I know about Haggard is what I&#8217;ve seen on TV (political family values stuff, rather saddening rallies), and, interestingly, something on YouTube, in which Haggard looks like a world class buffoon (not all of which can be attributed to editing; it&#8217;s painful). He is apparently a Young Earth creationist (why are so many Evanglicals commited to this?!) and is trying to speak with Richard Dawkins (truly a world class cad, but still brilliant in his way) about science, etc. It&#8217;s wholly dismaying to watch, as the man is an extremely important leader who will influence politics, and even science funding and research. Enough to confirm all prejudices one might have of the Bible Belt (even though they they might be incorrect).</p>
<p>God bless</p>
<p>Troy</p>
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		<title>By: K.W. Leslie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8285</link>
		<dc:creator>K.W. Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8285</guid>
		<description>I (and probably every pagan I know) am always skeptical of people who appear to have their act together, because I know that I certainly don't have my act together. Neither does my pastor (whom I know very well); neither does anyone. We're all plagued with sin.

So are all the megachurch pastors, the national Christian leaders, and everyone else. Only the people that are truly honest with their failures can keep from falling -- because they already admit to everyone they're fallen. For everyone else, it's only a matter of time before we all discover their hypocrisy. As Jesus once put it, everything that's hidden will become exposed. For this reason I'm never surprised when someone's secret sins are exposed. It was gonna happen anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I (and probably every pagan I know) am always skeptical of people who appear to have their act together, because I know that I certainly don&#8217;t have my act together. Neither does my pastor (whom I know very well); neither does anyone. We&#8217;re all plagued with sin.</p>
<p>So are all the megachurch pastors, the national Christian leaders, and everyone else. Only the people that are truly honest with their failures can keep from falling &#8212; because they already admit to everyone they&#8217;re fallen. For everyone else, it&#8217;s only a matter of time before we all discover their hypocrisy. As Jesus once put it, everything that&#8217;s hidden will become exposed. For this reason I&#8217;m never surprised when someone&#8217;s secret sins are exposed. It was gonna happen anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: GJohnson0313</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306#comment-8282</link>
		<dc:creator>GJohnson0313</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 18:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/weekend-file-110306-site-news-derbs-loss-of-faith-and-the-passion-of-the-haggard#comment-8282</guid>
		<description>Amen, my brother. I've both begun to grieve and to pray for Pastor Haggard and his members.

We have a small work here in Austin TX, so we're not among the "famous" in today's church world. But one thing I do understand...the gospel path is stained with blood.

I was taught as a young believer that this way of walking with Christ is a "suffering way". The old saints back then taught me that. That kind of teaching is out of style in today's church, but I'm seeing more and more the need to bring it back.

A few years ago, my spouse had a moral failure but God restored him and kept our marriage together. The embarrassment and humility of it all served to give us a special compassion for others AND a reminder that save for the grace of God, it would be OVER for us. My husband wrote a book about OUR fall, and lessons learned from it. 

I thank God constantly for that ordeal, as ugly and public and shameful as it was. But we are the better for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, my brother. I&#8217;ve both begun to grieve and to pray for Pastor Haggard and his members.</p>
<p>We have a small work here in Austin TX, so we&#8217;re not among the &#8220;famous&#8221; in today&#8217;s church world. But one thing I do understand&#8230;the gospel path is stained with blood.</p>
<p>I was taught as a young believer that this way of walking with Christ is a &#8220;suffering way&#8221;. The old saints back then taught me that. That kind of teaching is out of style in today&#8217;s church, but I&#8217;m seeing more and more the need to bring it back.</p>
<p>A few years ago, my spouse had a moral failure but God restored him and kept our marriage together. The embarrassment and humility of it all served to give us a special compassion for others AND a reminder that save for the grace of God, it would be OVER for us. My husband wrote a book about OUR fall, and lessons learned from it. </p>
<p>I thank God constantly for that ordeal, as ugly and public and shameful as it was. But we are the better for it.</p>
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