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	<title>Comments on: Wash Your Ears Out with This</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Abby</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-539532</link>
		<dc:creator>Abby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 00:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-539532</guid>
		<description>Does anyone know where to find the context of &quot;sin boldly?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone know where to find the context of &#8220;sin boldly?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Weekly Hit List #22&#160;&#124;&#160;:: VFAM.COM ::</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-539404</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekly Hit List #22&#160;&#124;&#160;:: VFAM.COM ::</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-539404</guid>
		<description>[...] week ago. Here is a moving piece about his relationship with his wife. - Internet Monk pushed out a powerful quote from Bonhoeffer on &#8220;cheap grace&#8221;. - Interesting discussion going on in the comments sectionof Jason Boyett&#8217;s post on Ted [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] week ago. Here is a moving piece about his relationship with his wife. &#8211; Internet Monk pushed out a powerful quote from Bonhoeffer on &#8220;cheap grace&#8221;. &#8211; Interesting discussion going on in the comments sectionof Jason Boyett&#8217;s post on Ted [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dumb ox</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-539292</link>
		<dc:creator>dumb ox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 22:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-539292</guid>
		<description>Ben:

I think &quot;repentance&quot; would need to be clarified.  Some people assume repentance implies that &quot;sinners&quot; must clean up their acts before they can be saved.  That&#039;s why Bonhoeffer&#039;s comment about the &quot;toils of sin&quot; is important.  I really think people not only want forgiveness; they want deliverence from sin.  Such deliverance will be incomplete and imperfect in this lifetime, but that shouldn&#039;t stop us from hungering and thirsting for righteousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben:</p>
<p>I think &#8220;repentance&#8221; would need to be clarified.  Some people assume repentance implies that &#8220;sinners&#8221; must clean up their acts before they can be saved.  That&#8217;s why Bonhoeffer&#8217;s comment about the &#8220;toils of sin&#8221; is important.  I really think people not only want forgiveness; they want deliverence from sin.  Such deliverance will be incomplete and imperfect in this lifetime, but that shouldn&#8217;t stop us from hungering and thirsting for righteousness.</p>
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		<title>By: AZ</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-539220</link>
		<dc:creator>AZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-539220</guid>
		<description>Saying &quot;Luther is one thing, Lutherans another&quot; reminds me of this good verse from Kipling:


He that hath a Gospel
To loose upon Mankind,
Though he serve it utterly--
Body, soul and mind--
Though he go to Calvary
Daily for its gain--
It is His Disciple
Shall make his labour vain.

He that hath a Gospel
For all earth to own--
Though he etch it on the steel,
Or carve it on the stone--
Not to be misdoubted
Through the after-days--
It is His Disciple
Shall read it many ways.

It is His Disciple
(Ere Those Bones are dust )
Who shall change the Charter,
Who shall split the Trust--
Amplify distinctions,
Rationalize the Claim;
Preaching that the Master
Would have done the same.

It is His Disciple
Who shall tell us how
Much the Master would have scrapped
Had he lived till now--
What he would have modified
Of what he said before.
It is His Disciple
Shall do this and more....

He that hath a Gospel
Whereby Heaven is won
( Carpenter, or cameleer,
Or Maya&#039;s dreaming son ),
Many swords shell pierce Him,
Mingling blood with gall;
But His Own Disciple
Shall wound Him worst of all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saying &#8220;Luther is one thing, Lutherans another&#8221; reminds me of this good verse from Kipling:</p>
<p>He that hath a Gospel<br />
To loose upon Mankind,<br />
Though he serve it utterly&#8211;<br />
Body, soul and mind&#8211;<br />
Though he go to Calvary<br />
Daily for its gain&#8211;<br />
It is His Disciple<br />
Shall make his labour vain.</p>
<p>He that hath a Gospel<br />
For all earth to own&#8211;<br />
Though he etch it on the steel,<br />
Or carve it on the stone&#8211;<br />
Not to be misdoubted<br />
Through the after-days&#8211;<br />
It is His Disciple<br />
Shall read it many ways.</p>
<p>It is His Disciple<br />
(Ere Those Bones are dust )<br />
Who shall change the Charter,<br />
Who shall split the Trust&#8211;<br />
Amplify distinctions,<br />
Rationalize the Claim;<br />
Preaching that the Master<br />
Would have done the same.</p>
<p>It is His Disciple<br />
Who shall tell us how<br />
Much the Master would have scrapped<br />
Had he lived till now&#8211;<br />
What he would have modified<br />
Of what he said before.<br />
It is His Disciple<br />
Shall do this and more&#8230;.</p>
<p>He that hath a Gospel<br />
Whereby Heaven is won<br />
( Carpenter, or cameleer,<br />
Or Maya&#8217;s dreaming son ),<br />
Many swords shell pierce Him,<br />
Mingling blood with gall;<br />
But His Own Disciple<br />
Shall wound Him worst of all!</p>
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		<title>By: Brigitte</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-539102</link>
		<dc:creator>Brigitte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 21:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-539102</guid>
		<description>We need to keep in mind the conditions of the time, to some extent.  The Nazified church continued to operate under the control of the totalitarian state.  Pastors of Jewish descent were deposed from office.  Who protested?  Bonhoeffer spoke out about this from the beginning. 

His big nagging problem was:  is it right or not right to try and get rid of a monster like Hitler, and after much soul searching he got involved actively. He decided that was what his conscience demanded, after all, and no matter even Ghandi.  

It was against his conscience to stand by.  It was against his conscience to let the church operate the way it did:  dishing out the sacraments and being complicit in the persecution of Jews and others.

The National church dished out cheap grace to ITself, absolved itself without confessing its sin, etc.
IT did not discipline itself. 

There are parallels to current organizations and to us as individuals:  becoming unaccountable, being too afraid to confess Christ, where you&#039;ve been put to do it, being unwilling to repent when needed, being unwilling to sacrifice for another.

Luther would have just called all of that being &quot;secure&quot; in your sinning and needing a good dose of law applied.  He would have never condoned any such things (leaving aside his insane tirade against the Jews.)

Luther himself never had a &quot;cheap&quot; grace of the Nazi collaborator kind.  He resisted Pope, Emperor, heretics, suffered excommunication, vilification etc.  rather than giving up grace in Christ.  His &quot;free&quot; grace was very &quot;costly&quot; to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need to keep in mind the conditions of the time, to some extent.  The Nazified church continued to operate under the control of the totalitarian state.  Pastors of Jewish descent were deposed from office.  Who protested?  Bonhoeffer spoke out about this from the beginning. </p>
<p>His big nagging problem was:  is it right or not right to try and get rid of a monster like Hitler, and after much soul searching he got involved actively. He decided that was what his conscience demanded, after all, and no matter even Ghandi.  </p>
<p>It was against his conscience to stand by.  It was against his conscience to let the church operate the way it did:  dishing out the sacraments and being complicit in the persecution of Jews and others.</p>
<p>The National church dished out cheap grace to ITself, absolved itself without confessing its sin, etc.<br />
IT did not discipline itself. </p>
<p>There are parallels to current organizations and to us as individuals:  becoming unaccountable, being too afraid to confess Christ, where you&#8217;ve been put to do it, being unwilling to repent when needed, being unwilling to sacrifice for another.</p>
<p>Luther would have just called all of that being &#8220;secure&#8221; in your sinning and needing a good dose of law applied.  He would have never condoned any such things (leaving aside his insane tirade against the Jews.)</p>
<p>Luther himself never had a &#8220;cheap&#8221; grace of the Nazi collaborator kind.  He resisted Pope, Emperor, heretics, suffered excommunication, vilification etc.  rather than giving up grace in Christ.  His &#8220;free&#8221; grace was very &#8220;costly&#8221; to him.</p>
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		<title>By: EricW</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-539047</link>
		<dc:creator>EricW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-539047</guid>
		<description>Ditto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Meyer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-538981</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-538981</guid>
		<description>Also, I think the idea of &quot;costly grace&quot; is probably a bad way of saying &quot;unrepentance.&quot;

I think what Bonhoeffer really wants to attack is the idea of Christianity without repentance, which of course is exactly what is causing many problems in Christ&#039;s church today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I think the idea of &#8220;costly grace&#8221; is probably a bad way of saying &#8220;unrepentance.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think what Bonhoeffer really wants to attack is the idea of Christianity without repentance, which of course is exactly what is causing many problems in Christ&#8217;s church today.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Meyer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-538978</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-538978</guid>
		<description>I agree that he rips the &quot;sin boldly&quot; statement out of context, guts it, and then re-interprets it to make an entirely different point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that he rips the &#8220;sin boldly&#8221; statement out of context, guts it, and then re-interprets it to make an entirely different point.</p>
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		<title>By: briank</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-538937</link>
		<dc:creator>briank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-538937</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve enjoyed your comments --- I&#039;ve seen the movie &quot;Hanged on a Twisted Cross&quot; about the life of Bonhoeffer. An amazing man in an insane time in history. When you say &quot;Luther always points me back to the cross and the empty tomb&quot; - What more can be said Brother??
This is the answer to our questions! God is Love , God is Glory! peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve enjoyed your comments &#8212; I&#8217;ve seen the movie &#8220;Hanged on a Twisted Cross&#8221; about the life of Bonhoeffer. An amazing man in an insane time in history. When you say &#8220;Luther always points me back to the cross and the empty tomb&#8221; &#8211; What more can be said Brother??<br />
This is the answer to our questions! God is Love , God is Glory! peace</p>
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		<title>By: GAB</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/wash-your-ears-out-with-this/comment-page-1#comment-538927</link>
		<dc:creator>GAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 05:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=8346#comment-538927</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t repent of something you haven&#039;t done yet. And there is NEVER a situation in which one is forced to sin. 

The very essence of martyrdom is refusal to turn from God even at the cost of one&#039;s life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t repent of something you haven&#8217;t done yet. And there is NEVER a situation in which one is forced to sin. </p>
<p>The very essence of martyrdom is refusal to turn from God even at the cost of one&#8217;s life.</p>
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