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	<title>Comments on: UPDATE: Another Look at Visitation</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: à¹‚à¸«à¸¥à¸”à¹€à¸žà¸¥à¸‡</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-523368</link>
		<dc:creator>à¹‚à¸«à¸¥à¸”à¹€à¸žà¸¥à¸‡</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you for everything. Very useful</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for everything. Very useful</p>
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		<title>By: Linkie Goodness #3 &#171; Should Know Better By Now</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-523360</link>
		<dc:creator>Linkie Goodness #3 &#171; Should Know Better By Now</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5411#comment-523360</guid>
		<description>[...] A pastor needs to know his flock [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A pastor needs to know his flock [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Baines</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-523187</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Baines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 23:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5411#comment-523187</guid>
		<description>Wow, this is a great post. As a Pastor, I believe that the Pastor is duty bound to do his/her part in visiting, especially the hospitalized. But as important is the Pastor&#039;s duty to build a culture of Christian visitation can love. So it is not one or the other, but both and the other. I know one of my challenges is to be fair and do for one what I can do for all. So hospital visits, followed by requests, and followed by simply being available especially after worship and study sessions are essential for me. Again thanks for the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, this is a great post. As a Pastor, I believe that the Pastor is duty bound to do his/her part in visiting, especially the hospitalized. But as important is the Pastor&#8217;s duty to build a culture of Christian visitation can love. So it is not one or the other, but both and the other. I know one of my challenges is to be fair and do for one what I can do for all. So hospital visits, followed by requests, and followed by simply being available especially after worship and study sessions are essential for me. Again thanks for the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine Sine</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-523030</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine Sine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A great post and comments.  It reminds me of what I have seen happen in my own profession of medicine.  When I was first in practice we did house calls - it is amazing what we can learn in a single visit to a person&#039;s home, but in the name of efficiency we have given that up and now make people come to us so that they can have all kinds of tests done (many of which I suspect are not really related to good medical practice at all).  

When I taught a course on incarnation and the urban poor for Fuller seminary I read an article that asked the question &quot;What do we give up to move from poverty into the middle class?&#039; The research showed that what we give up is relationship for efficiency and accomplishment.  I think that this is what we see in both pastoral ministry and the medical profession these days - we have given up seeing our purpose as relationship and reinvented it as accomplishment and efficiency so what matters is how many people are in church and how well we preach rather than how well we relate and how well we know people (or even God).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great post and comments.  It reminds me of what I have seen happen in my own profession of medicine.  When I was first in practice we did house calls &#8211; it is amazing what we can learn in a single visit to a person&#8217;s home, but in the name of efficiency we have given that up and now make people come to us so that they can have all kinds of tests done (many of which I suspect are not really related to good medical practice at all).  </p>
<p>When I taught a course on incarnation and the urban poor for Fuller seminary I read an article that asked the question &#8220;What do we give up to move from poverty into the middle class?&#8217; The research showed that what we give up is relationship for efficiency and accomplishment.  I think that this is what we see in both pastoral ministry and the medical profession these days &#8211; we have given up seeing our purpose as relationship and reinvented it as accomplishment and efficiency so what matters is how many people are in church and how well we preach rather than how well we relate and how well we know people (or even God).</p>
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		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-522995</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>By the way, this is not just a problem in megachurches or multi-site ministries. Today I had a conversation with someone who has left his small, traditional, denominational church in our small Midwestern town. One of the primary reasons is that they received no contact from the pastor, even when they had been absent for many weeks. Though I would not automatically blame the pastor when I hear a story like this, I heard something in my friend&#039;s comments that went beyond his own personal dissatisfaction. It all added up, in my understanding, to this: the pastor did not have good personal communication habits with members of the congregation. The pastor simply didn&#039;t keep in touch with people and what was happening in their lives. 

Our first congregation was a small church of 75-100 in a village of 200 people. I know there were many times when people there felt the same way about me. Visitation and personal work is hard, demanding, and it can feel inefficient and ineffective. But it is organic and absolutely necessary. Factories can churn out disposable products at high speed. Oak trees grow slowly from small acorns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, this is not just a problem in megachurches or multi-site ministries. Today I had a conversation with someone who has left his small, traditional, denominational church in our small Midwestern town. One of the primary reasons is that they received no contact from the pastor, even when they had been absent for many weeks. Though I would not automatically blame the pastor when I hear a story like this, I heard something in my friend&#8217;s comments that went beyond his own personal dissatisfaction. It all added up, in my understanding, to this: the pastor did not have good personal communication habits with members of the congregation. The pastor simply didn&#8217;t keep in touch with people and what was happening in their lives. </p>
<p>Our first congregation was a small church of 75-100 in a village of 200 people. I know there were many times when people there felt the same way about me. Visitation and personal work is hard, demanding, and it can feel inefficient and ineffective. But it is organic and absolutely necessary. Factories can churn out disposable products at high speed. Oak trees grow slowly from small acorns.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-522992</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>With all due respect, Kevin, I think you are reading an awful lot of contemporary culture back into the Bible. Peter was not the great CEO who holed up in his study and prayer closet and then came forth to &quot;cast vision&quot; and delegate the ministry to others. These are American business concepts, not reflections of the way Peter and the apostles actually lived day by day in down-to-earth ministry. 

Acts 9:32 says Peter &quot;went here and there among all the believers,&quot; taking time to visit a bedridden man, visit a group of grieving believers who had lost a friend, staying with a believer named Jason in his house, and going to Cornelius&#039; home personally to share the gospel when the Spirit led him. When released from prison, he went to a home where believers had gathered for prayer to give them the news personally. 

Christian ministry is face to face, person to person, and house to house, meeting people personally where they are, or it is not the kind of ministry Christ and the apostles exemplified for us.

I could not disagree with you more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect, Kevin, I think you are reading an awful lot of contemporary culture back into the Bible. Peter was not the great CEO who holed up in his study and prayer closet and then came forth to &#8220;cast vision&#8221; and delegate the ministry to others. These are American business concepts, not reflections of the way Peter and the apostles actually lived day by day in down-to-earth ministry. </p>
<p>Acts 9:32 says Peter &#8220;went here and there among all the believers,&#8221; taking time to visit a bedridden man, visit a group of grieving believers who had lost a friend, staying with a believer named Jason in his house, and going to Cornelius&#8217; home personally to share the gospel when the Spirit led him. When released from prison, he went to a home where believers had gathered for prayer to give them the news personally. </p>
<p>Christian ministry is face to face, person to person, and house to house, meeting people personally where they are, or it is not the kind of ministry Christ and the apostles exemplified for us.</p>
<p>I could not disagree with you more.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-522987</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>given my current context and experience as a campus pastor I have a different perspective. 

The main issue I see here is Gospel Stewardship. Theologically it&#039;s rooted in the Great Commission. I believe it&#039;s our missional responsibility to reach the largest number of people possible. So we stretch our imaginations to leverage technology, systems, and structures to advance the Kingdom. 


From everything I see this is a Biblical precedent in the early church. When I read through Acts 6 it appears that apostolic leaders are devoting themselves to prayer and teaching and then select other leaders for pastoral care with the widows of the church. i.e. helping feed them, making the visits, having conversations, and knowing them by name. 

If Peter made his primary responsibility &quot;pastoral care&quot; and visitation for the 3,000 plus, there would be no time for prayer and study. Peter depended upon those that they and the HS empowered to serve. The pastoral care we see in the book of acts comes from apostolic directives rather than the apostles themselves. Historically the apostles had a great reach without being physically present. Like the NT church we are just leveraging the technology of the day (NT church - written / modern - video) that opens new opportunities.

I believe pastors who lead multi-campus ministries effectively have an apostolic gift. J. Robert Clinton defines apostleship as &quot;the gift to have the leadership capacity to move with authority from God to create new ministry structures to meet needs and appoint leadership in those structures.&quot; While the apostles in the early church were responsible for the church they were not obligated to do personally all of that for which they are responsbile. 

I hope to be an apostle one day, I really do. I dream of being able to devote the majority of my time to prayer and the ministry of the Word, but for now I&#039;m just waiting tables as a campus pastor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>given my current context and experience as a campus pastor I have a different perspective. </p>
<p>The main issue I see here is Gospel Stewardship. Theologically it&#8217;s rooted in the Great Commission. I believe it&#8217;s our missional responsibility to reach the largest number of people possible. So we stretch our imaginations to leverage technology, systems, and structures to advance the Kingdom. </p>
<p>From everything I see this is a Biblical precedent in the early church. When I read through Acts 6 it appears that apostolic leaders are devoting themselves to prayer and teaching and then select other leaders for pastoral care with the widows of the church. i.e. helping feed them, making the visits, having conversations, and knowing them by name. </p>
<p>If Peter made his primary responsibility &#8220;pastoral care&#8221; and visitation for the 3,000 plus, there would be no time for prayer and study. Peter depended upon those that they and the HS empowered to serve. The pastoral care we see in the book of acts comes from apostolic directives rather than the apostles themselves. Historically the apostles had a great reach without being physically present. Like the NT church we are just leveraging the technology of the day (NT church &#8211; written / modern &#8211; video) that opens new opportunities.</p>
<p>I believe pastors who lead multi-campus ministries effectively have an apostolic gift. J. Robert Clinton defines apostleship as &#8220;the gift to have the leadership capacity to move with authority from God to create new ministry structures to meet needs and appoint leadership in those structures.&#8221; While the apostles in the early church were responsible for the church they were not obligated to do personally all of that for which they are responsbile. </p>
<p>I hope to be an apostle one day, I really do. I dream of being able to devote the majority of my time to prayer and the ministry of the Word, but for now I&#8217;m just waiting tables as a campus pastor.</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-522969</link>
		<dc:creator>karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Still reformed in the RC Sproul, White Horse Inn tradition, but moving more towards Lutheranism.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still reformed in the RC Sproul, White Horse Inn tradition, but moving more towards Lutheranism.  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-522874</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree, Mike. But, then again, the doctrine of good preaching = God&#039;s special annointing = absolute authority in all church matters is very strong in many evangelical circles. Many of these preacher / tyrants have consolidated their power to such an extent that bringing them into any kind of accountability is not possible without fragmenting or destroying the church bodies or institutions they rule. But, maybe, that&#039;s something that needs to happen in such cases, no matter how messy the outcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Mike. But, then again, the doctrine of good preaching = God&#8217;s special annointing = absolute authority in all church matters is very strong in many evangelical circles. Many of these preacher / tyrants have consolidated their power to such an extent that bringing them into any kind of accountability is not possible without fragmenting or destroying the church bodies or institutions they rule. But, maybe, that&#8217;s something that needs to happen in such cases, no matter how messy the outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/update-another-look-at-visitation/comment-page-1#comment-522871</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I suspect you&#039;re right, John. But how then do we combat this erosion of Christian community? I say that if we want to preserve and perpetuate a sense of community in American church culture, then we&#039;re going to have to both fight for it and live it out. And I think part of that means refusing to settle for anything less -- no matter how great the preacher is at preaching or how program-driven things have become. But if we keep buying into individualistic, consumer-oriented Christianity, then the law of supply and demand will keep pushing things in that direction.
However, if those who truly want it actively pursue a more close-knit, loving, and relational church environment, then they will find what they seek -- inside or outside existing institutional structures. And if the big star pastors aren&#039;t willing to trade the spotlight for a shepherd&#039;s staff, then I&#039;m confident that God will raise up more humble hearts and hands to feed His sheep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect you&#8217;re right, John. But how then do we combat this erosion of Christian community? I say that if we want to preserve and perpetuate a sense of community in American church culture, then we&#8217;re going to have to both fight for it and live it out. And I think part of that means refusing to settle for anything less &#8212; no matter how great the preacher is at preaching or how program-driven things have become. But if we keep buying into individualistic, consumer-oriented Christianity, then the law of supply and demand will keep pushing things in that direction.<br />
However, if those who truly want it actively pursue a more close-knit, loving, and relational church environment, then they will find what they seek &#8212; inside or outside existing institutional structures. And if the big star pastors aren&#8217;t willing to trade the spotlight for a shepherd&#8217;s staff, then I&#8217;m confident that God will raise up more humble hearts and hands to feed His sheep.</p>
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