Comments on: Too Much Heaven? http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:46:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: jimbob http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-228652 jimbob Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:27:31 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-228652 I certainly enjoy many aspects of this life (just check my garage for evidence!!!). That said, there are a lot of trends in the world these days that I'm starting to feel too tired to fight. So much unrighteousness and cynical selfishness in the world; so much evil. Sometimes we nearly despair of hope for our daughters' futures... At times like that, I find myself weary of this life, and long to sink into the comforting arms of my Savior, where I won't have to carry these burdens any more. Let it be the next generation's problem; I just want to go home. Is this wrong? I certainly enjoy many aspects of this life (just check my garage for evidence!!!). That said, there are a lot of trends in the world these days that I’m starting to feel too tired to fight. So much unrighteousness and cynical selfishness in the world; so much evil. Sometimes we nearly despair of hope for our daughters’ futures… At times like that, I find myself weary of this life, and long to sink into the comforting arms of my Savior, where I won’t have to carry these burdens any more. Let it be the next generation’s problem; I just want to go home.

Is this wrong?

]]> By: Ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-228016 Ken Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:57:47 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-228016 <i>"gold crowns with a jewel for each person we led to Jesus" I have heard this said. Do you know where it comes from?</i> -- Jeff Probably from the Wretched Urgency shtick that God will judge/reward believers ONLY on how many Souls They've Won (TM). The more Souls You Saved (TM), the more bragging rights and one-upmanship. As for everything else, including "...my beautiful wife and wonderful children, go to work, read a good book, enjoy a ball game and walk my dog", your body groaning with mortality, and the cosmos waiting for renewal? "It's All Gonna Burn (TM)." “gold crowns with a jewel for each person we led to Jesus”

I have heard this said. Do you know where it comes from? — Jeff

Probably from the Wretched Urgency shtick that God will judge/reward believers ONLY on how many Souls They’ve Won (TM). The more Souls You Saved (TM), the more bragging rights and one-upmanship.

As for everything else, including “…my beautiful wife and wonderful children, go to work, read a good book, enjoy a ball game and walk my dog”,
your body groaning with mortality, and the cosmos waiting for renewal?
“It’s All Gonna Burn (TM).”

]]> By: Ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-227524 Ken Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:53:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-227524 <i>I was also brought up with the idea of streets of gold and mansions. Mine was going to be “a gold one that’s silver lined”. Imagine my disappointment when I found out the word really meant simply dwelling places or rooms.</i> -- Fred Well, "rooms" does fit the imagery better than "mansions" -- "My Father's house has many rooms". I was also brought up with the idea of streets of gold and mansions. Mine was going to be “a gold one that’s silver lined”. Imagine my disappointment when I found out the word really meant simply dwelling places or rooms. — Fred

Well, “rooms” does fit the imagery better than “mansions” — “My Father’s house has many rooms”.

]]> By: Ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-223952 Ken Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:50:55 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-223952 <i>(Whenever I talked about whether we’d need a Bathroom of Life I was rebuked for mocking sacred things.)</i> -- K.W.Leslie I got the same treatment for describing the doctrine of the Incarnation as "God Almighty having to squat down and take a crap behind a bush beside a dirt road in Galilee." Actually, I'd get one of two responses -- total agreement or immediate Flesh-to-Pile-of-Rocks. (Whenever I talked about whether we’d need a Bathroom of Life I was rebuked for mocking sacred things.) — K.W.Leslie

I got the same treatment for describing the doctrine of the Incarnation as “God Almighty having to squat down and take a crap behind a bush beside a dirt road in Galilee.”

Actually, I’d get one of two responses — total agreement or immediate Flesh-to-Pile-of-Rocks.

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-223822 Jonathan Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:44:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-223822 As a Christian who doesn't believe that salvation includes heaven-going at all (and I know what some of you are thinking... gasp!), I find it interesting to see how the church trends swing back and forth between a focus heaven-going and a focus on the (I believe, more Biblically-based) doctrine of the resurrection and the coming Kingdom on earth. I wonder if this is part of the beginning of a more resurrection-oriented trend in orthodox Christian circles? For anyone who is wondering how a Bible-believing Christian could possibly not believe that the righteous go to heaven, you may wish to check out . As a Christian who doesn’t believe that salvation includes heaven-going at all (and I know what some of you are thinking… gasp!), I find it interesting to see how the church trends swing back and forth between a focus heaven-going and a focus on the (I believe, more Biblically-based) doctrine of the resurrection and the coming Kingdom on earth. I wonder if this is part of the beginning of a more resurrection-oriented trend in orthodox Christian circles?

For anyone who is wondering how a Bible-believing Christian could possibly not believe that the righteous go to heaven, you may wish to check out .

]]> By: Ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-223401 Ken Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:07:12 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-223401 <i>To bring it back to the present Christian world, I see (not so extreme) examples every day. In the Evangelical paradigm, everything has to be “spiritualized” to be of value. Every event of life must be interrupted as via the hand of God or that of Satan to have any meaning.</i> -- J Michael Jones Why cannot "every event of life" just BE? To bring it back to the present Christian world, I see (not so extreme) examples every day. In the Evangelical paradigm, everything has to be “spiritualized” to be of value. Every event of life must be interrupted as via the hand of God or that of Satan to have any meaning. — J Michael Jones

Why cannot “every event of life” just BE?

]]> By: Ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-222927 Ken Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:22:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-222927 <i>When I was in the Navigators in college, we were constantly reminded that our studies (at a secular university) were “worldly.” We were told to go out on evangelism or do Bible Study instead of studying academics and God will give you “A’s.”</i> -- J Michael Jones When I was in college (late Seventies), the Navigators had a rep for being the most in-your-face Wretched-Urgency "Witnesses!" and having the highest burnout rate. When I was in the Navigators in college, we were constantly reminded that our studies (at a secular university) were “worldly.” We were told to go out on evangelism or do Bible Study instead of studying academics and God will give you “A’s.” — J Michael Jones

When I was in college (late Seventies), the Navigators had a rep for being the most in-your-face Wretched-Urgency “Witnesses!” and having the highest burnout rate.

]]> By: Kiwi and an Emu. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-222742 Kiwi and an Emu. Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:18:09 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-222742 [...] Monk has a couple of posts about how heaven has been presented in his own life called, “Too Much Heaven? and Too Much Heaven? Part 2: Heaven and Earth.  The guy is a great [...] […] Monk has a couple of posts about how heaven has been presented in his own life called, “Too Much Heaven? and Too Much Heaven? Part 2: Heaven and Earth.  The guy is a great […]

]]> By: Douglasah http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-222476 Douglasah Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:00:59 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-222476 This has always been confusing to me as well. So much in the Bible is about PROCESS - the turning away and returning to GOD, the erring and then understanding GOD, and finally, the joining with GOD. I wonder how we got from the process of turning and returning to GOD to only wanting Heaven? As the author and posters have mentioned, there seems to be a lot going on around us here - so much so as it seems doubtful to me that we should "Ignore it" and think only of a final destination. I might even go so far as to say (as others have) that our Faith is a search - without our full understanding of our destination. Likely, "Heaven" is far more than our current (still being earthly/human) understanding could allow us to comprehend. Further, if we fixate on "Heaven" - we have to admit at some time that we are fixating on something we have only imagined. (Not that heaven is imaginary, only that our ideas of it - though inspired by Gospel - are limited by our current comprehension.) When presented with the genuine article, we may not imediately recognize it, in that it is not likely to conform to our imaginings. This has always been confusing to me as well. So much in the Bible is about PROCESS - the turning away and returning to GOD, the erring and then understanding GOD, and finally, the joining with GOD. I wonder how we got from the process of turning and returning to GOD to only wanting Heaven? As the author and posters have mentioned, there seems to be a lot going on around us here - so much so as it seems doubtful to me that we should “Ignore it” and think only of a final destination. I might even go so far as to say (as others have) that our Faith is a search - without our full understanding of our destination.

Likely, “Heaven” is far more than our current (still being earthly/human) understanding could allow us to comprehend. Further, if we fixate on “Heaven” - we have to admit at some time that we are fixating on something we have only imagined. (Not that heaven is imaginary, only that our ideas of it - though inspired by Gospel - are limited by our current comprehension.) When presented with the genuine article, we may not imediately recognize it, in that it is not likely to conform to our imaginings.

]]> By: scott http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven#comment-222408 scott Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:08:51 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1970#comment-222408 Fair enough. I went back and reread the post, a bit more carefully this time, and you're right. Thanks. Fair enough. I went back and reread the post, a bit more carefully this time, and you’re right. Thanks.

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