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	<title>Comments on: Too Much Heaven? (3): Heaven and Evangelism</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-230964</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-230964</guid>
		<description>I am amill. I&#039;m channeling some of Wright. I do believe the manifestation of &quot;heaven&quot; we are heading toward is a remade creation with the &quot;marriage of heaven and earth.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am amill. I&#8217;m channeling some of Wright. I do believe the manifestation of &#8220;heaven&#8221; we are heading toward is a remade creation with the &#8220;marriage of heaven and earth.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-230958</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-230958</guid>
		<description>Michael,
A great article that helps to put thing sin context for me.  The fact that changed lives are to be the result of a &#039;decision for Christ&#039; is indeed often overlooked.  We get comfortable and try to shoehorn Christianity into our lives rather than realizing just what a &#039;new creation&#039; we are called to be.

One point, though. You say, 
&lt;/i&gt;The Kingdom of God will eventual overturn all the fallen, pretentious kingdoms of men. â€œHeavenâ€ is the reign of God seen from the Godward side, and we pray that it will come on earth as God answers the prayer that his will is done â€œon earth as it is in heaven.â€

Inviting people to reserve a place in heaven is shortchanging the Gospel, and creates the problem of justifying the demands of the Kingdom of God in the interim. 
&lt;/i&gt;

Are you equating the Kingdom of God (on earth) with eternity/heaven?  Not to open a can of worms unduly, but isn&#039;t that a preterist/amillenial view of things?  I don&#039;t disagree that the Kingdom of God is, and should be, a &#039;here and now&#039; thing and that we are called over and over to live Christlike lives to bring it about.  that&#039;s different, I think, from a heaven-on-earth concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
A great article that helps to put thing sin context for me.  The fact that changed lives are to be the result of a &#8216;decision for Christ&#8217; is indeed often overlooked.  We get comfortable and try to shoehorn Christianity into our lives rather than realizing just what a &#8216;new creation&#8217; we are called to be.</p>
<p>One point, though. You say,<br />
The Kingdom of God will eventual overturn all the fallen, pretentious kingdoms of men. â€œHeavenâ€ is the reign of God seen from the Godward side, and we pray that it will come on earth as God answers the prayer that his will is done â€œon earth as it is in heaven.â€</p>
<p>Inviting people to reserve a place in heaven is shortchanging the Gospel, and creates the problem of justifying the demands of the Kingdom of God in the interim. </p>
<p>Are you equating the Kingdom of God (on earth) with eternity/heaven?  Not to open a can of worms unduly, but isn&#8217;t that a preterist/amillenial view of things?  I don&#8217;t disagree that the Kingdom of God is, and should be, a &#8216;here and now&#8217; thing and that we are called over and over to live Christlike lives to bring it about.  that&#8217;s different, I think, from a heaven-on-earth concept.</p>
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		<title>By: James Wilbur</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-229498</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wilbur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-229498</guid>
		<description>I thank you for this site.  I myself recognize in my heart that God chose me before the foundations of the world and He called me and quicked my heart, and caused me to hear and receive the gospel by the faith He imbedded in my heart, to understand in my inner most being just who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for all those He chose in himself before the foundations of the world. Eph. 1:4
   I now wake up thanking God for saving me and as I move through my days I can see God the Holy Spirit working in my innermost being, moving me, accomplishing His purpose in me.
   I have areas in my life where I have asked God to move in me, in my unbelief and rebelious flesh, but I see Him moving in my victories, failures, with goodness and sometimes chastisement, which is also the love of God working in my life for His purpose.
   Heaven is just one of (billions) of things God has promised His children. 
   I now move through my days free from having to please God, as I already am righteous and perfect in His sight, as God sees me through Jesus, and has seated me with Him in the heavenly realms at this moment IN JESUS CHRIST. Eph. 2:6</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thank you for this site.  I myself recognize in my heart that God chose me before the foundations of the world and He called me and quicked my heart, and caused me to hear and receive the gospel by the faith He imbedded in my heart, to understand in my inner most being just who Jesus Christ is and what He has done for all those He chose in himself before the foundations of the world. Eph. 1:4<br />
   I now wake up thanking God for saving me and as I move through my days I can see God the Holy Spirit working in my innermost being, moving me, accomplishing His purpose in me.<br />
   I have areas in my life where I have asked God to move in me, in my unbelief and rebelious flesh, but I see Him moving in my victories, failures, with goodness and sometimes chastisement, which is also the love of God working in my life for His purpose.<br />
   Heaven is just one of (billions) of things God has promised His children.<br />
   I now move through my days free from having to please God, as I already am righteous and perfect in His sight, as God sees me through Jesus, and has seated me with Him in the heavenly realms at this moment IN JESUS CHRIST. Eph. 2:6</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-224417</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-224417</guid>
		<description>Rick Frueh,

Excellent reminder.  It&#039;s always good to examine our motives and methods, but God is big, and he is able in spite of all of our shortcomings to break into the most wayward of hearts.

I appreciate the free exchange of ideas on this site, but let&#039;s never forget that none of us do it &quot;right&quot; all of the time.  All of us are who we are by God&#039;s grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick Frueh,</p>
<p>Excellent reminder.  It&#8217;s always good to examine our motives and methods, but God is big, and he is able in spite of all of our shortcomings to break into the most wayward of hearts.</p>
<p>I appreciate the free exchange of ideas on this site, but let&#8217;s never forget that none of us do it &#8220;right&#8221; all of the time.  All of us are who we are by God&#8217;s grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-224306</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-224306</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If I remember right, Bill Brightâ€™s goal was that every American household would â€œhear the gospel,â€ and he got a Madison Ave. guy to lead the project.&lt;/i&gt; 
-- J Michael Jones (no relation to J Jonah Jameson)

&quot;ABC:
A = Always,
B = Be,
C = Closing,
Always be Closing,
Always be Closing.&quot;
-- snarky comment from the blog &lt;i&gt;Slacktivist: Left Behind&lt;/i&gt; regarding &quot;high-pressure salesmen for Jesus&quot; witnessing tactics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If I remember right, Bill Brightâ€™s goal was that every American household would â€œhear the gospel,â€ and he got a Madison Ave. guy to lead the project.</i><br />
&#8211; J Michael Jones (no relation to J Jonah Jameson)</p>
<p>&#8220;ABC:<br />
A = Always,<br />
B = Be,<br />
C = Closing,<br />
Always be Closing,<br />
Always be Closing.&#8221;<br />
&#8211; snarky comment from the blog <i>Slacktivist: Left Behind</i> regarding &#8220;high-pressure salesmen for Jesus&#8221; witnessing tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-224258</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-224258</guid>
		<description>God loves you and has a &lt;i&gt;difficult&lt;/i&gt; plan for your life. An actual title to a sermon my husband gives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God loves you and has a <i>difficult</i> plan for your life. An actual title to a sermon my husband gives.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Frueh</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-224255</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Frueh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-224255</guid>
		<description>Let us realize that God&#039;s Spirit and work of grace can be efficacious when the cirmstances are overly structured and even manipulative. Although it is desirable to provide a spiritual combine that allows the Spirit the freedom to work in hearts as well as minds, God can and does still work.

Paul rejoices when the gospel is shared in mocking and that the Spirit cannot be restrained by the machinations of well meaning men. I have known believers who were saved by watching Jesus Christ Superstar and are now missionaries. Many thousands have come to faith via an overly pragmatic presentation such as that employed by Bill Bright.

So it is desirable to avoid &quot;marketing&quot; Jesus, but do not underestimate God&#039;s grace to work in the hearts of sinners with a clumsy evangelistic method. And it just might be that if Jesus tarries for another one hundred years, the multi-generational offspring of present day blogs may look back on all of our methods as unwieldy and unsophistcated and even unspiritual.

The most subtle of all deceptions is to believe that our journey has taken us into a deceptive free zone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let us realize that God&#8217;s Spirit and work of grace can be efficacious when the cirmstances are overly structured and even manipulative. Although it is desirable to provide a spiritual combine that allows the Spirit the freedom to work in hearts as well as minds, God can and does still work.</p>
<p>Paul rejoices when the gospel is shared in mocking and that the Spirit cannot be restrained by the machinations of well meaning men. I have known believers who were saved by watching Jesus Christ Superstar and are now missionaries. Many thousands have come to faith via an overly pragmatic presentation such as that employed by Bill Bright.</p>
<p>So it is desirable to avoid &#8220;marketing&#8221; Jesus, but do not underestimate God&#8217;s grace to work in the hearts of sinners with a clumsy evangelistic method. And it just might be that if Jesus tarries for another one hundred years, the multi-generational offspring of present day blogs may look back on all of our methods as unwieldy and unsophistcated and even unspiritual.</p>
<p>The most subtle of all deceptions is to believe that our journey has taken us into a deceptive free zone.</p>
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		<title>By: Arend Bakker</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-224026</link>
		<dc:creator>Arend Bakker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 04:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-224026</guid>
		<description>I was delighted to read your post.  This echoes the kind of thought &amp; teaching I&#039;ve enjoyed all of my life in my corner of the &quot;reformed&quot; community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was delighted to read your post.  This echoes the kind of thought &amp; teaching I&#8217;ve enjoyed all of my life in my corner of the &#8220;reformed&#8221; community.</p>
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		<title>By: j.Michael Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-223950</link>
		<dc:creator>j.Michael Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-223950</guid>
		<description>As always, an interesting conversation.

Iâ€™m sure youâ€™ve heard variations on the following sermon, which left an impression on me years ago.  Speaking of the Kingdom, the presenter said, â€œWhat started as a relationship in Palestine, became a philosophy in Greece, an Institution in Rome, an Enterprise in Europe and in America . . . a Franchise.

My best personal example of the Franchising of Jesus was when (as a college student in cir 79) I helped with Campus Crusadeâ€™s â€œI Found Itâ€™ campaign.  If I remember right, Bill Brightâ€™s goal was that every American household would â€œhear the gospel,â€ and he got a Madison Ave. guy to lead the project.

About thirty of us spent several nights a week in cubicles in a telemarketing â€œsweat shopâ€ in downtown Louisville, Kentucky.  We were each assigned a large sections of the Louisville phone book, which were reproduced on a large font printout(this was before the days of PCs).  Beside the name, we had boxes to check. â€œGospel presentedâ€ and â€œDecision made.â€

In front of us was a flip chart with a very precise dialog.  In our training, we told that we could not deviate from the script, even by one word.  On each page of the cardboard flip chart was a page from the 4 spiritual laws.

I saw a â€œdecision madeâ€ box checked by the name of a young man (on another callerâ€™s page) who happened to live in my section of the city. 

As an experiment, I decided to step out of the sterile, formal telemarketer world and into his.  I called him and went by to see him (thinking that he was a new believer, who needed help.) 

I hung out with Rick for about eight weeks. Yes, he had said the prayer with the caller . . . but he had no concept of the Kingdom and didn&#039;t know Jesus.  Actually he was Buddhist, and ran a martial artist school.  The â€œbelieverâ€™s prayerâ€ to him was just another tool of meditation and transcendence. He was not open to meeting the real Jesus despite our many hours together.  Yet, he went down as a statistic on the I Found Report, caulking up one more for â€œHearing the gospelâ€ and â€œDecision Made.â€ 

This whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth and I felt like I had done something evil in my participation, but I was too naive to understand what the problem was then.

Even now, it is more than ironic that there is a swath of  TV channels on our cable service that are made up of either sleazy infomercials (fat-burner wraps, anti-aging supplements or get rich in real estate scemes) sandwiched around goofy-looking (and also sleazing looking) people selling Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As always, an interesting conversation.</p>
<p>Iâ€™m sure youâ€™ve heard variations on the following sermon, which left an impression on me years ago.  Speaking of the Kingdom, the presenter said, â€œWhat started as a relationship in Palestine, became a philosophy in Greece, an Institution in Rome, an Enterprise in Europe and in America . . . a Franchise.</p>
<p>My best personal example of the Franchising of Jesus was when (as a college student in cir 79) I helped with Campus Crusadeâ€™s â€œI Found Itâ€™ campaign.  If I remember right, Bill Brightâ€™s goal was that every American household would â€œhear the gospel,â€ and he got a Madison Ave. guy to lead the project.</p>
<p>About thirty of us spent several nights a week in cubicles in a telemarketing â€œsweat shopâ€ in downtown Louisville, Kentucky.  We were each assigned a large sections of the Louisville phone book, which were reproduced on a large font printout(this was before the days of PCs).  Beside the name, we had boxes to check. â€œGospel presentedâ€ and â€œDecision made.â€</p>
<p>In front of us was a flip chart with a very precise dialog.  In our training, we told that we could not deviate from the script, even by one word.  On each page of the cardboard flip chart was a page from the 4 spiritual laws.</p>
<p>I saw a â€œdecision madeâ€ box checked by the name of a young man (on another callerâ€™s page) who happened to live in my section of the city. </p>
<p>As an experiment, I decided to step out of the sterile, formal telemarketer world and into his.  I called him and went by to see him (thinking that he was a new believer, who needed help.) </p>
<p>I hung out with Rick for about eight weeks. Yes, he had said the prayer with the caller . . . but he had no concept of the Kingdom and didn&#8217;t know Jesus.  Actually he was Buddhist, and ran a martial artist school.  The â€œbelieverâ€™s prayerâ€ to him was just another tool of meditation and transcendence. He was not open to meeting the real Jesus despite our many hours together.  Yet, he went down as a statistic on the I Found Report, caulking up one more for â€œHearing the gospelâ€ and â€œDecision Made.â€ </p>
<p>This whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth and I felt like I had done something evil in my participation, but I was too naive to understand what the problem was then.</p>
<p>Even now, it is more than ironic that there is a swath of  TV channels on our cable service that are made up of either sleazy infomercials (fat-burner wraps, anti-aging supplements or get rich in real estate scemes) sandwiched around goofy-looking (and also sleazing looking) people selling Jesus.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnO</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/too-much-heaven-3-heaven-and-evangelism/comment-page-1#comment-223911</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1979#comment-223911</guid>
		<description>Your last couple of paragraphs certainly struck a chord with me. For the last few weeks I&#039;ve been hearing &#039;Easter&#039; sermons which preached the centrality of the cross, to the point where the cross became the be-all and end-all of what we need to know of the gospel.
No mention of changed lives, no mention of Spirit-filled people showing love to all, no mention of Jesus almost - the cross overshadowed it all. And that&#039;s not entirely unreasonable (especially for Easter), but I realised, reading your words that &quot;Christ is the Gospel&quot; that in some circles He is, in a sense, forgotten because all that matters is that redeeming act that &#039;gets us into heaven&#039;. It ends up that the entire point of Jesus&#039; life is to die on the cross. And that&#039;s another thing. How often does the sermon stop there? Oh yes, there was the resurrection, but it was the cross that mattered.
Reading NT Wright and your recent blog postings and the resultant discussions has been one of those &#039;step-changes&#039; I seem to experience in my faith journey. I thank God that it happened now, just before I go into the final stages of training for ministry. For me, it&#039;s been one of those &#039;jigsaw piece&#039; moments when a few parts fall into place and there is a glimpse of the bigger picture. My reading of scripture has taken on a new dimension and, after several years of approaching it academically, I have regained a sense of the excitement when reading it.
Sorry, this has lapsed into a bit of a personal brain-dump, but I guess I wanted to get over just how much I appreciate these blog posts and the comments (oh yes, and the book).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your last couple of paragraphs certainly struck a chord with me. For the last few weeks I&#8217;ve been hearing &#8216;Easter&#8217; sermons which preached the centrality of the cross, to the point where the cross became the be-all and end-all of what we need to know of the gospel.<br />
No mention of changed lives, no mention of Spirit-filled people showing love to all, no mention of Jesus almost &#8211; the cross overshadowed it all. And that&#8217;s not entirely unreasonable (especially for Easter), but I realised, reading your words that &#8220;Christ is the Gospel&#8221; that in some circles He is, in a sense, forgotten because all that matters is that redeeming act that &#8216;gets us into heaven&#8217;. It ends up that the entire point of Jesus&#8217; life is to die on the cross. And that&#8217;s another thing. How often does the sermon stop there? Oh yes, there was the resurrection, but it was the cross that mattered.<br />
Reading NT Wright and your recent blog postings and the resultant discussions has been one of those &#8216;step-changes&#8217; I seem to experience in my faith journey. I thank God that it happened now, just before I go into the final stages of training for ministry. For me, it&#8217;s been one of those &#8216;jigsaw piece&#8217; moments when a few parts fall into place and there is a glimpse of the bigger picture. My reading of scripture has taken on a new dimension and, after several years of approaching it academically, I have regained a sense of the excitement when reading it.<br />
Sorry, this has lapsed into a bit of a personal brain-dump, but I guess I wanted to get over just how much I appreciate these blog posts and the comments (oh yes, and the book).</p>
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