By “Christian Counter-culture” I assume you DON’T mean the usual “Just like (whatever’s trendy), except CHRISTIAN!”

Thanks. It is a very thought-provoking list.

http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com/2007/10/renewed-call-for-reformation.html

Happy Reformation Day!
Chris

I appreciate this entry (I was directed here by a post on Revolution in Jesusland). I also appreciate Steve Martin’s and Richard’s perspective on the Episcopal Church. I, like Steve, am a convert to the Episcopal Church after 20 years as an Evangelical.

I want to make a comment on #4. You wrote that the mainline churches have lost their “theological ‘center’,” and later illustrated this by the Episcopal Church’s willingness to “go to the wall over gay marraige and ordination.” All this at a time when Evangelicals are open to the Anglican style of worship.

I think characterizing the Episcopal Church as loosing it’s theological center is slightly inaccurate (though it does sell newspapers). The Anglican Church’s theology is not doctrinal, it is liturgical. That is, to speak broadly, what unites us is not common belief but common worship. So when the General Convention of the Episcopal Church started ordaining women, and recently ordaining members of the GLBT community, it’s official doctrine had changed - perhaps contrary to what many consider to be orthodox Christianity - but its central theology didn’t.

words like “chosen”, elect, separated, narrow gate vs wide gate, wheat and tares, etc. all refer to a limited atonement.

“simply a change of mind” means that we are fully capable of making that choice ourselves, instead of the Holy Spirit changing our “hard hearts” so we are capable of receiving the grace and stepping in faith. It is nothing we do; it is only by the grace and mercy of God that any of us are saved.

Unlimited atonement is wishful thinking but is not supported by the Bible. Some say why would God allow people to go to Hell? Without God providing a Savior none would be saved. It is a balance between His Holiness, His Mercy, His Grace, and His Judgment.

living daily in His grace and mercy, God Bless

KP wrote: Before we consider “evangelicalism” why don’t first get the Gospel right. Consider this, the suffering endured by Jesus Christ, while on the cross, was sufficient to satisfy God the Fathers demand for justice regarding the penalty of all sin, unlimited atonement. Upon hearing and understanding the Gospel all that is required is agreement. To agree is to believe, an issue of faith not validated by its fervor, but the perfect object it beholds, Jesus Christ. Repentance is simply a change of mind whereby one changes his/her thinking so that they are pointed to Jesus Christ, the end of the law, to obtain as a free gift what they were trying in vain to obtain through self righteousness, works. Once we believe, a single nonmeritorious command(Law of Liberty), God imputes or gives us the status of one “perfect”. A judicial status. So, even though we still sin in time were are considered “pure”, as one who never broke the law. When we do sin, God cannot condemn or impute the penalty of our sin since all sin has been judged. Enough said.

The Anselmian doctrine of substitionary, propitiatory atonement, which developed into the concept of penal substitution, came many, many centuries after, e.g., Athanasius’ ON THE INCARNATION. Surely Evangelicals should ponder what the historic defender of Christ’s Trinitarian divinity wrote was the nature of Christ’s salvation of man. In order to “get the Gospel right,” one should also look at what the Early Christians and Early Church considered the Gospel to be.

1John 2:3-7 We know we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. The man who says, “I know Him”, but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys His word, God’s love is made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus walks.

The biggest problem with the whole “church” is that we are not walking as Christ walked. If the church were living out the gospel we wouldn’t be having the problems we are. We would be such a positive influence on our world that people would be breaking down the doors to get a piece of what we have.
The reason we are not living out the gospel is because the vast majority of those attending church don’t know it. They don’t know it because they are not given a reason to know it.
The get rich quick books and self improvement books are selling as quick as they can be printed because they offer something tangible.
I’m sure those involved in discussions as these are involved in things other than theological exercises, but are we living a life that others want a part of? Are we setting an example of walking as Christ walked that open the door to explaining our salvation and how it changed our lives?
We need to live it and not just talk it.

I see a lot of discipleship in evangelicalism. We’re turning out more versions of what we already are.