We have seasons in life where we are tested and tempted and certainly we do not “feel” like we are enjoying God, though we may be faithful and exhibiting love through obedience and perseverance. There is nothing wrong with desiring love, Paul told us to “pursue love” (1 Cor.14:1. But, as Brown points out, this can lead our own sinful interjections within the pursuit when we begin to measure and evaluate every step of the way.

My concern with Brown’s comments is that they seem to lack an emphasis on love, which is supposed to be the center of our faith. His criticism would have been complete had he been able to show the supremacy of love while underscoring the dangers of an unhealthy worry over it – a worry which ironically is self-defeating anyway…

I wonder how much it is unfair of this guy (never heard of him) to criticise Piper for how he responded to Piper’s teaching.

I seem to remember a Fresh Words about glorifying God in how we drink OJ?

However, I find that Piper *over*-states depravity and, with all his talk of joy, is a little too serious. Sometimes he reminds me of a preacher I heard who went on and on about joy, deep joy, not “happiness” but “real” joy. One got the impression that this joy was so damn deep that you could never actually find it!

Maybe when you cut out the expletives, you’ll have enough room for real, deep joy.

Couple thoughts on the criticism. First, I think Piper would in fact talk about how deligting in ice cream and the movie are not antithetical to delighting in God. In fact, I think Piper says that a whole lot b/c of the misunderstanding Brown is articulating. I can see, however, how one could get that impression from Piper. He’s a very serious man, but he’s also a very joyful man. He might do well to peruse “Wretched urgency” once or twice, but my feeling is that we need more guys like Piper. I can see in my own life how the greatest threats to worshipping God are His gifts. I’m recently engaged and my fiance is both my greatest blessing and the greatest threat to my walk with Jesus. Concerted time in prayer and in the word gets lost in her deep hazel eyes and her flowing dark brown hair and… I’m getting mushy; I should stop And in the end, if I’m not spending time alone with Jesus, I am in no position to lead and love her. All that to say that a consistent reminder to us that movies, ice cream, and fiances are all streams of joy leading us to the ocean of God is always welcome in my life. They are beams of sun light, but God is the sun (to paraphrase J. Edwards). That’s why I read Piper. He snaps me out of the daze and triviality of much of what passes for my life. Then he helps me find Jesus in ice cream and movies and fiances and baseball and orange juice and music (except for pop music. That’s just a bunch of crap.) (Note: the previous comment about the crappiness of pop music is solely the opinion of J Rig and in now way reflects the position of Michael Spencer, Internet Monk, Boars Head Tavern or any of their affiliates.)

The other thing i wanted to comment on is your question about Piper “underselling” depravity? I found that to be an interesting take on the issue b/c Piper is such a hard core, dyed in the wool Calvinist (I think he’s about an 18 pointer now). The more common criticism I hear is that he is too focused on depravity. In all my readings and listenings, Piper consistently emphasizes that joy in God is a gift from God. It’s not something we work up. In the words of Donald Miller, it’s something that happens to us. (Miller actually said that in regards to faith, but the point holds true in this case too). I think Piper would say that our joy in God is the heart’s natural and inevitable response to the God-initiated, grace-driven, awe-inspiring, breath-taking revelation of Jesus Christ (I didn’t want to, but I couldn’t resist. I had to throw in multiple hyphenated words. I mean, c’mon. I’m speaking for Piper arent I? The best we do is to place ourselves in the way of God’s grace. (See Don Whitney for great stuff on the Spiritual disciplines that put us in the way of GOd’s grace).

Finally, I will say that one thing that has helped me immensely in dealing with the tensions between enjoying life, Calvinism and Christian Hedonism as well as loving people (and perhaps the more difficult task of liking people) is something I recently heard Mark Driscoll say. It was something that was always playing around the edges of my mind and had already begun to show itself in practice. Driscoll, in talking about Calvinism, said that he liked the 5 points, but he doesn’t think it’s the best way to organize b/c it starts with total depravity and not creation in the Imago Dei. I think that’s a massive theological statement that we of Reformed ilk would do well to deeply ponder. Think about it. Because people, including ourselves, are seen FIRST as sinners worthy of hell and God hating rebels, as opposed to image bearers made by God for God, Calvinists become some of the meanest, most pessimistic people on the planet, and also some of the most guilt-ridden. Perhaps I should say that I, as a Calvinist (i’ve only got 14 points , have been at times one of the meanest, pessimistic, angry people, and also the most guilt ridden. That way I don’t speak for anyone else. I think a healthy corrective to Calvinistic thinking would be the restoration of the imago Dei at the beginning of our confession. Let’s talk about sin and depravity and evil and the hopelessness of man, but let’s first talk about the pinnacle of God’s creation in the garden (that would be man and woman) and how that image was defamed, corrupted and tarnished, but not destroyed when our first parents ate the fruit (or okra. Sorry, that was from another post.) We still see vestiges of the imago Dei all around us (like in ice cream and movies and fiances).

That’s my rambling two cents. I’d love to hear your comments, Monk, especially on the last part. I think it actually ties in quite nicely with what you’ve said recently about Calvinism and Calvinists. In fact, I think it might explain a lot of the history of “angry Calvinism.” (Incidentally that’s what I love about Driscoll and the Acts 29 bunch. There’s a bunch of guys who love Reformed theology, German beer, and sex with their wives. If that’s Christianity, count me in.)

Peace

Second, Piper is not the originator of using words such as “delighting in”, “rejoicing in”, “enjoying”, “desiring”, etc. It can be found very much in the works of Jonathan Edwards (Piper’s hero) and several of the Puritians. I do not think by using these terms Piper is trying to redifine what a relationship with God is, rather they seem to be a means to get language around the concept of what a relationship with God entails. It is not just mental acent and agrement to some set of beliefs, rather it is an inner change of heart and mind set. As Paul would term it, it is being made a “new creation”. Piper utilizes this language to hone in on the fact that when we are new creatures (or living by the Spirit, etc), our whole heart’s desire is changed and renewed (though this is not perfectly, as we struggle to ever be changed and conformed to Christ).

Third, the command to “delight yourself in the Lord” frees us from any idea of legalism rather than binds us to it. Indeed, it has been Piper who has really opened my heart to be set free from the idea that I must make myself do good works to show myself to be being sanctified. Rather it is from and out of a joy in God that I am set free to live a life holy unto the Lord. It is when I set God in his proper place, and finding all my satsifaction in him that I no longer need, nor crave the less satisfying, temprary, and fading “thrills” of sin.

Indeed we must be about fighting for joy in God. Otherwise we set ourselves up to find our joy in other things: be it sin or God’s gifts or creation itself (Rom. 1:25). But this fighting for our joy in God is not to the exclusion of all things that do not directly appear “religious” (by this I mean, Bible reading, prayer, church, etc..) Rather, we can find our joy in God in and through his creation (indeed God, himself does; Ps. 104:31). This means that in going to a movie we can delight in God’s ability to do a million times more than a Jedi night using th force (Piper picks up this same type of illustration in a message he delivered for one of the “OneDay” conferences in connection to the Lord of the Rings movie, that he had recently seen). Or we can delight in God and glorify him in drinking oragne juice (which starts off with a discussion on man’s depravity, interestingly enough). *Links for these two illustrations are provided at the end*

I hope these thoughs spur you on in you faith, and help you do wreste further with what it means to “delight yourself in the Lord” (Ps. 37:4) and to see that Piper would much rather set you free from any hint of legalism, than to imprison you to it in any way.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/sin/orange_juice.html
http://www.desiringgodstore.org/store/index.cgi?cmd=view_item&parent=104&id=440

I’ve been reading and listening to Dr. P since the first edition of DG and back when the tapes were sent to me by an older couple in the church. I admire him, but there is an issue of grace on one hand, and this call for constant personal instensity on the other.

The recent bio of Edwards by Marsden confirms what I have long suspected. Edwards personal spirituality bordered on unhealthy fanaticism at times. I think there are combinations of doctrine and personality types that are confusing in what we hear/see as the example of the Christian Life. I personally find that to be the case here, especially on some issues.