http://www.hissheep.org/messages/larry_king_and_joel_osteen_interview.html

or watch snippets here (unbelievable!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM&feature=player_embedded

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
Philippians 1:15-18 (NIV)

At bottom, treebeard, I think the church exists to teach men about salvation, not to soothe them psychologically.

iMonk mentioned that people of other faiths (or no faith) can be of great help to people in some respects. Everybody has some gift or insight that another might find useful. Why though, just because Osteen has himself a pulpit, do we have to imagine that what he is doing and saying is “Christian”? It manifestly isn’t. I think one big reason a guy like Osteen can consistently blindside us is that we’re so used to thinking of heresy in sensational terms – liberal theologians teaching people scandalous Christologies, guys like Todd Bentley who kick grandmas in the face, or whatever Holy Blood, Holy Grail says about Catholicism. We don’t see (and don’t want to see) how easy and pacific the Best false teachers are.

I don’t think the Bible can’t reliably be telescoped into one particular purpose or ‘Message’ that anybody can understand; but the history of Protestantism is fraught with attempts to do just that. And many attempts to do that, no matter how flawed they are, are going to gain a lot of adherents (pre-mil dispensationalism, anyone?) Obviously, compressing an entire universe of faith-life questions into a curiosity satisficed by an axiom like “God blesses the faithful with wealth and happiness” is going to be popular. It’s psychologically reassuring. The Prosperity theological schemes order the universe, pare all that unintelligible massiveness into a few simple motions and polite truisms. Christ did not do that. Christians, who gather because of Christ, can’t give each other less because Everything came down from the cross. Everything came out of the grave with Jesus.

The church doesn’t “offer” hope for material satisfaction and advice for living because that’s not what a community of faith in Jesus Christ produces, is, or does.

The church is for discipleship, where we learn how to serve and how to pray, how to leash ourselves to the teachings of Christ and learn to encounter our sin and accept forgiveness through the work of the Cross. It’s our context for learning about the Bible and what it means to be Christian. Any assembly that doesn’t do that can’t claim to be a church, just an attending audience with a charismatic speaker. Any pastor that isn’t, doesn’t, or can’t do that alongside his church is not really a preacher of the Gospel – he’s just giving talks. The full Gospel is more than just talk.

The guy doesn’t even tell people about Jesus the way you would, and he’s supposed to be this Real Deal preacher. How lame is that?

Osteen’s not, in a meaningful sense, a preacher. He’s not a proclaimer of the Gospel. He’s a telethon host. He offers the same exact thing that Oprah offers: nothing, actually.

If iMonk thinks the guy is slimy, and I can tell he’s way more serious about telling people about Jesus than I am… I’ll take his word for it.

If I could follow up with you, with an honest question. I was once a member of a Christian group that was very extreme and sectarian in certain respects. (I apologize for mentioning this often in my comments, but it is an important part of my identity.) Those among us who were “consecrated” took the Nazarite vow and similar sections of the Bible very seriously. But in my experience, and in that of many others, it became a legalistic source of condemnation.

For example, are movies okay? Is it okay to watch PG movies but not R ones? Or is an R movie okay if it has something important to teach? Is it okay to listen to music in the car? Is classical okay but rock is not? How about talk radio? Is it okay to pay attention to politics? Is it okay to own stocks? Etc. Etc. Etc.

Now you can imagine that this turns a person into a mental case. And although not everyone took it this far, there was an intensity among us individually and as a group that invited this kind of morbid introspection, with an overanalysis on whether our deeds were spiritual or not.

I’m curious if you could comment on this. How does one stay consecrated to the Lord, living as a priest (even a Nazarite), remaining in society, without getting caught up in the legalisms that Paul taught us are of no effect? My own conclusion was that none of my own practice was genuinely spiritual, because it led to self-absorption rather than service to other people. And also, while I always felt guilty (“oops, I listened to a piece of music in the car and loved it too much, and so I touched ‘death’”), I never had the grace to stop the habits which I considered unspiritual.

Perhaps this is the reason I have a knee-jerk reaction against monastic concepts, which is as strong as the reaction others have against prosperity teaching. And perhaps my negative experience in an exclusive sect leads me to an opposite extreme, which is a non-judgmental attitude towards people like Osteen. I recognize that this is not necessarily a good thing.

Much grace to you, Fr. Ernesto. And Mike, I apologize if this seems like “thread jacking.” I hope that the previous paragraph makes it clear why I consider this comment relevant (in regards to Osteen).

I don’t convince them. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict people of sin. And I sincerely believe that if people come to Jesus for the wrong reasons, He is still the truth that will set them free. If someone prays to the Lord about anything, He doesn’t disappear because their motive is wrong. He is real, living, everpresent, and eager to express His love and forgiveness to those who come to Him. I don’t think when He says, “Come unto Me, all ye that labor…” or “Whoever comes to Me I will by no means cast out,” that He makes an exception for people who are in poverty, don’t know how their kids are going to eat their next meal, and are encouraged by a preacher to pray about their finances and believe that the Lord will take care of them.

Don’t misunderstand me. I think repentance is essential. But I’ve known people who prayed to the Lord for various reasons first, and the conviction of sin and repentance came later. I have one close friend in particular who turned her heart to the Lord while driving on the highway. She remembers it vividly. She called on His name and asked Him to be Lord of her life. After that she was baptized, and she would wake up every morning spending time with Him and reading His word. But it wasn’t until two years later that all of a sudden she realized that she was a terrible sinner, and that He had died in her place to receive God’s judgment, and so she thanked the Lord for dying for her on the cross. Was she saved before she actually realized she was a sinner, and specifically offered words of repentance? I would say “yes,” because her heart turned to the Lord, and she experienced Him coming in to live within her. I believe that the Lord honored her heart, and that His death on the cross was applied to her even though she didn’t fully understand it. Then, at the appropriate time, after she knew the Bible sufficiently, the Lord convicted her of sin and she repented. Some would say she was only truly saved at that moment, but I would disagree. “Whenever the heart shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.”

I regret that in this comment thread and the other one (with the videos) it appears I’m an apologist for the prosperity gospel and for shallow theology. I’m really not. I would rather people spend all their time reading the Bible, and then the church fathers, the great Protestant teachers, etc. I would rather them listen to preachers who talked about Christ and the church, and who quoted Scripture constantly. I would rather no one sit in a chair in front of Osteen.

What I’m wrestling with is, what about the people who honestly get help from the guy? What is it that Osteen has that the modern church (“evangelical” or otherwise) is not offering? Is it merely a sugarcoated pseudogospel? Is it just the old Dale Carnegie self-help stuff with a little bit of Christ added in? Or is it that some people need joy, and other Christians can’t help them find it? Some people need hope, and modern Christianity leaves them cold. Again, I’m not a fan of Osteen. But I’m reluctant to conclude that there is something evil about him, as opposed to something lacking. And if people do get saved in the midst of all the prosperity talk, that to me is no small thing. I don’t mean that it makes up for false teaching, I mean that if the Lord uses Osteen, we should be careful about saying, “Lord, You’re wrong, how dare You use such a man. Don’t you know he isn’t teaching the cross and repentance sufficiently?”

If Osteen says anywhere that we don’t need to repent for sin, or if he were to deny the deity of Christ or the truth of the resurrection, then I would consider him a false teacher. But so far I haven’t heard anything that would lead me to that conclusion. Perhaps it’s because I don’t watch him enough to make an accurate assessment, and I don’t intend to. I 100% appreciate Mike and the commenters who insist that we must stand for the truth, and must fight against heretics and false teachers. But I’m also worried that the Lord might say to me or any one of us in that day, “Why did you call this man a heretic and a false teacher? Let Me show you his fruit.” I’d rather be safe, and let Osteen stand or fall before the God that he claims to serve.

If any person, Mike or someone else, can give me an exact quote from Osteen that makes it clear he is a false teacher whom we as real Christians must oppose, I’m more than open.

Think about it. You love your children so you teach them to look out for the dangers of the world to be preapred. You can’t be their best buddy anf only tell them what they want to hear. You have to be a parent. You have to train them, prepare them for the trails they will face. Spiritually a pastor has a similar role. He must prepare his flock for trials and snares. One of those snares, maybe one of the most dangerous snares in fact, is the lure of wealth and worldly comfort. Very easy trap to fall into, and yet Osteen is leading people right into it.