Comments on: The Problem With Real Christians http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:11:07 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Caila http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-301209 Caila Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:25:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-301209 Oh my goodness. Yes. Thank you for this post. Somehow, inevitably, I always have a little bit of an idea itching in my brain and when I come to your site I see it all spelled out for me. I've been trying to come to grips lately with the problem you describe here. A friend and I got into a discussion last week that left us at odds: She says no one can know if they are truly saved because they might do something really bad later in life and "die in their sins," whereas I believe the blood of Christ covers all sins and walks us through all eras of our lives, continually shaping us, continually teaching us about His grace. I don't know how this all spells out for eternity, but I certainly don't see Jesus in the Gospels teaching us to think the way my friend thinks. Her views seem to stem from this obsessive tendency to know when/if a person is "saved." Then, when she sees someone do something terrible she assumes they are no longer saved or never were saved in the first place. This understanding just doesn't work for me. It's too definite. I really believe in Christ's redemptive grace, and yet I still sin, not "as badly" as I used to, but sin is sin. I also don't see the use in defining everybody and packing us all into categories. It seems to breed pride--at least I've seen it do that in my own life. I'm also usually inclined to agree with C.S. Lewis. He just make so much sense. Oh my goodness. Yes. Thank you for this post. Somehow, inevitably, I always have a little bit of an idea itching in my brain and when I come to your site I see it all spelled out for me. I’ve been trying to come to grips lately with the problem you describe here. A friend and I got into a discussion last week that left us at odds: She says no one can know if they are truly saved because they might do something really bad later in life and “die in their sins,” whereas I believe the blood of Christ covers all sins and walks us through all eras of our lives, continually shaping us, continually teaching us about His grace. I don’t know how this all spells out for eternity, but I certainly don’t see Jesus in the Gospels teaching us to think the way my friend thinks. Her views seem to stem from this obsessive tendency to know when/if a person is “saved.” Then, when she sees someone do something terrible she assumes they are no longer saved or never were saved in the first place. This understanding just doesn’t work for me. It’s too definite. I really believe in Christ’s redemptive grace, and yet I still sin, not “as badly” as I used to, but sin is sin. I also don’t see the use in defining everybody and packing us all into categories. It seems to breed pride–at least I’ve seen it do that in my own life.
I’m also usually inclined to agree with C.S. Lewis. He just make so much sense.

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-301050 Bror Erickson Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:23:52 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-301050 I am troubled. To often I see Christians trying to find their identity in the law. We all have the law on our hearts, Christian and nonChristian alike. What defines the Christian is faith in Jesus, a gift of the Holy Spirit. For us Lutherans this faith is passive, that is it is more important that God knows you, than that you know God. So we have no trouble baptizing even the youngest of infants, and the most afflicted by downs syndrome etc. Christ is for them too. In baptism they are given the identity of Christ, Christ is put on them. But trying to define yourself as a Christian by comparing yourself to your neighbor is a recipe for disaster anyway you cut the cake. It will bring you to hypocrisy or despair. It can do nothing else. Forgive a Luther quote please. I happen to have read this the other day and it struck me hard, I think it applies. It is from his commentary on Galatians, in Chapter 4 commenting on vers 6 "Galatians 4:6 (ESV) And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Luther writes:"There is no great difference externally between a Christian and a decent honest person, for what a Christian does outwardly is only lowly and simple. We do our duty according to our vocation, we guide our family, we till the soil, we give advice, we help our neighbor. These things are not much esteemed but are thought to be common to everyone, even the heathen. The world does not understand the things of the Spirit of God and therefore judges our works perversely. The actions of believers may seem to be worthless on the surface, but they are truly good works and are accepted by God because they are done in faith, with a cheerful heart, and with obedience and thankfulness toward God." The difference between Christians and nonChristians will not be found in the externals. The difference is Christ. I am troubled. To often I see Christians trying to find their identity in the law. We all have the law on our hearts, Christian and nonChristian alike. What defines the Christian is faith in Jesus, a gift of the Holy Spirit. For us Lutherans this faith is passive, that is it is more important that God knows you, than that you know God. So we have no trouble baptizing even the youngest of infants, and the most afflicted by downs syndrome etc. Christ is for them too. In baptism they are given the identity of Christ, Christ is put on them.
But trying to define yourself as a Christian by comparing yourself to your neighbor is a recipe for disaster anyway you cut the cake. It will bring you to hypocrisy or despair. It can do nothing else.
Forgive a Luther quote please. I happen to have read this the other day and it struck me hard, I think it applies. It is from his commentary on Galatians, in Chapter 4 commenting on vers 6 “Galatians 4:6 (ESV)
And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Luther writes:”There is no great difference externally between a Christian and a decent honest person, for what a Christian does outwardly is only lowly and simple. We do our duty according to our vocation, we guide our family, we till the soil, we give advice, we help our neighbor. These things are not much esteemed but are thought to be common to everyone, even the heathen. The world does not understand the things of the Spirit of God and therefore judges our works perversely. The actions of believers may seem to be worthless on the surface, but they are truly good works and are accepted by God because they are done in faith, with a cheerful heart, and with obedience and thankfulness toward God.”
The difference between Christians and nonChristians will not be found in the externals. The difference is Christ.

]]> By: Dave Jaspersen http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-301007 Dave Jaspersen Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:27:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-301007 {Willem Bronkhorst Is his concern not more with the problems presented to our Christian witness by the reality that there is often a greater measure of God’s grace visible in some nice people who are not “new” (i.e. “in”)than is visible in some “new” (i.e. “in”) people who are not so nice? His concern, so it seems to me, is not at all with how to determine who is “in” and who is “out”. On the contrary, he seems to be quite clear as to how to determine who is “in” (”new” but not necessarily “nice” yet)and who is out (”nice” but not “new”), does he not? Am I missing something?} He does! {Willem Bronkhorst Is his concern not more with the problems presented to our Christian witness by the reality that there is often a greater measure of God’s grace visible in some nice people who are not “new” (i.e. “in”)than is visible in some “new” (i.e. “in”) people who are not so nice? His concern, so it seems to me, is not at all with how to determine who is “in” and who is “out”. On the contrary, he seems to be quite clear as to how to determine who is “in” (”new” but not necessarily “nice” yet)and who is out (”nice” but not “new”), does he not? Am I missing something?}

He does!

]]> By: George C http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-300886 George C Tue, 07 Oct 2008 04:21:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-300886 Good post Michael. As someone who has spent and inordinate amount of time questioning his own salvation, I can say it really is a fools errand to do it along the lines that many of us do. Depending upon your bent you will see more of the flaws or more of the fruit. Could it not be that we are to be affirmed or denied in the context of intimate community. It seems that that is what 1 John points to (which apparently is where you find the 10 marks of a true christian). Maybe if things were framed more in along the lines of right and wrong, rather than in and out we would be on less shaky ground. I can and must denounce certain behavior or teaching, but it is only in the extreme cases that I could even imagine being able to tell the difference between a fool who is a believer and a genuine imposter, which seems to be them only real concern of scripture. Practically speaking though, it doesn't really matter much. If we point people to the truth the out will get in or go away and the in will grow. Good post Michael.

As someone who has spent and inordinate amount of time questioning his own salvation, I can say it really is a fools errand to do it along the lines that many of us do.

Depending upon your bent you will see more of the flaws or more of the fruit. Could it not be that we are to be affirmed or denied in the context of intimate community. It seems that that is what 1 John points to (which apparently is where you find the 10 marks of a true christian).

Maybe if things were framed more in along the lines of right and wrong, rather than in and out we would be on less shaky ground. I can and must denounce certain behavior or teaching, but it is only in the extreme cases that I could even imagine being able to tell the difference between a fool who is a believer and a genuine imposter, which seems to be them only real concern of scripture.

Practically speaking though, it doesn’t really matter much. If we point people to the truth the out will get in or go away and the in will grow.

]]> By: thomas http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-300796 thomas Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:45:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-300796 This distinction between perimeter and center is also shown in Luke 9:50 versus Luke 11:23; we often get things backwards. This distinction between perimeter and center is also shown in Luke 9:50 versus Luke 11:23; we often get things backwards.

]]> By: Patrick Lynch http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-300771 Patrick Lynch Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:05:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-300771 CAndiron, the thing about Jesus having been to Britain has actually been rumored for hundreds of years; William Blake even wrote a poem about it. It's an interesting legend and actually a quite beautiful one - like Mormonism, but with pagans. Most people never really believed those old stories (even when they were "news"), but they're worth reading. There's a Jesus legendarium waiting to be written: you should totally do it. CAndiron, the thing about Jesus having been to Britain has actually been rumored for hundreds of years; William Blake even wrote a poem about it. It’s an interesting legend and actually a quite beautiful one – like Mormonism, but with pagans. Most people never really believed those old stories (even when they were “news”), but they’re worth reading. There’s a Jesus legendarium waiting to be written: you should totally do it.

]]> By: Helen http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-300732 Helen Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:10:17 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-300732 thank you so much for your blog. thank you so much for your blog.

]]> By: Aaron Boe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-175453 Aaron Boe Fri, 28 Dec 2007 21:03:52 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-175453 Michael, Thank you for your work. I never would have guessed that you have a lack of energy. I appreciate your willingness to share with the world. For as long as I can remember, I have felt there is something deeply wrong with the question, "Are you a Christian?" or, "Is he a Christian?" As if we know what people are by what they call themselves! The titles people give themselves is virtually meaningless. It seems to me that it does not matter what you call yourself, it matters what you are. What is your state of being? All can benefit from consciously following the loving ways of Christ, but what a person calls himself is merely a label and often a distraction. And as you suggest, we are often NOT following the way of Christ, which to me means, at each of those times, we are not Christian (a follower of Christ). We cannot judge and love at the same instant. We must learn to transcend judgment in order to be Christ-like. That is a struggle for me as one who is quite good at judging the judgers. I am growing, however, and realizing that they know not what they do. Peace and Thanks, Aaron Michael,

Thank you for your work. I never would have guessed that you have a lack of energy. I appreciate your willingness to share with the world.

For as long as I can remember, I have felt there is something deeply wrong with the question, “Are you a Christian?” or, “Is he a Christian?” As if we know what people are by what they call themselves! The titles people give themselves is virtually meaningless. It seems to me that it does not matter what you call yourself, it matters what you are. What is your state of being? All can benefit from consciously following the loving ways of Christ, but what a person calls himself is merely a label and often a distraction. And as you suggest, we are often NOT following the way of Christ, which to me means, at each of those times, we are not Christian (a follower of Christ).

We cannot judge and love at the same instant. We must learn to transcend judgment in order to be Christ-like. That is a struggle for me as one who is quite good at judging the judgers. I am growing, however, and realizing that they know not what they do.

Peace and Thanks,
Aaron

]]> By: David Wayne http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-171689 David Wayne Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:43:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-171689 Michael - I just wanted to stop by and say this is a terrific post, absolutely terrific. Wish I could add something to it, but I can't. You have given words to an uneasiness I have felt for years with Christians who continually seek to discern/judge who is a Christian and who is not. I've met too many people who play the "well you must not be a Christian card" when confronted with a difficult situation. Thanks again. Michael – I just wanted to stop by and say this is a terrific post, absolutely terrific. Wish I could add something to it, but I can’t. You have given words to an uneasiness I have felt for years with Christians who continually seek to discern/judge who is a Christian and who is not. I’ve met too many people who play the “well you must not be a Christian card” when confronted with a difficult situation. Thanks again.

]]> By: CAndiron http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians/comment-page-1#comment-171442 CAndiron Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:39:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-problem-with-real-christians#comment-171442 This post needs to be more specific. Of course we shouldn't shred each other over adiaphora (as certain radio programs are wont to do), but criticising certain individuals (such as Spong, Borg, Pinnock or Romney) who go around <i>claiming</i> to be Christian isn't necessarily caused by a Pharisaical OCD whose aim is to classify and pigeon hole people just for the sake of it. You can err in both directions, you know. And when you wander far enough off the ranch (there's and Episcopal priest who's a druid who's publishing a fantasy about Jesus having visited England or some such nonsense), it's a fair call to say that they are not Christian, however committed they are to using the label to get people to buy into their product. This post needs to be more specific. Of course we shouldn’t shred each other over adiaphora (as certain radio programs are wont to do), but criticising certain individuals (such as Spong, Borg, Pinnock or Romney) who go around claiming to be Christian isn’t necessarily caused by a Pharisaical OCD whose aim is to classify and pigeon hole people just for the sake of it.

You can err in both directions, you know. And when you wander far enough off the ranch (there’s and Episcopal priest who’s a druid who’s publishing a fantasy about Jesus having visited England or some such nonsense), it’s a fair call to say that they are not Christian, however committed they are to using the label to get people to buy into their product.

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