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	<title>Comments on: The Love Of Jesus Is Enough: A Meditation on Morality</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: roderick</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-439886</link>
		<dc:creator>roderick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-439886</guid>
		<description>I get blue in the face wondering when Christians will stop debating the morality/ethicality of things that are not worth the extracurricular activity of demonizing. The same christian who shuns alcohol and marijuana or cigarettes or other drugs may have a problem elsewhere. Like lust, or prejudice of someone from a different denomination, or another race, or downright hypocrisy and self-righteousness, or self centerdness, and arrogance.  I am a recovering addict. Iknow that because of the power of God, today I am clean and sober.  However, I am not going to point fingers all day at drug users. I still remember the despair and heart ache I was under before I was delivered. You have no idea. Believe me, you don&#039;t. Stop posing moral questions. Instead, pray for those still suffering.  You&#039;re not fooling me with your overblown sense of morality. Get real Brothers and Sisters. We all need God&#039;s mercy. We are all lost without it. Whether you&#039;ve done drugs or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get blue in the face wondering when Christians will stop debating the morality/ethicality of things that are not worth the extracurricular activity of demonizing. The same christian who shuns alcohol and marijuana or cigarettes or other drugs may have a problem elsewhere. Like lust, or prejudice of someone from a different denomination, or another race, or downright hypocrisy and self-righteousness, or self centerdness, and arrogance.  I am a recovering addict. Iknow that because of the power of God, today I am clean and sober.  However, I am not going to point fingers all day at drug users. I still remember the despair and heart ache I was under before I was delivered. You have no idea. Believe me, you don&#8217;t. Stop posing moral questions. Instead, pray for those still suffering.  You&#8217;re not fooling me with your overblown sense of morality. Get real Brothers and Sisters. We all need God&#8217;s mercy. We are all lost without it. Whether you&#8217;ve done drugs or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Ricky H</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-438167</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-438167</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t believe a commenter actually claimed that chocolate ice cream &quot;alters your state of mind.&quot;  Smoke much?

And the mention of caffeine as somehow analogous to pot is kind of silly. No amount of caffeine is going to make you think you somehow perceive the world more clearly, or will write better, paint better, or be a better person. (And if one is so caffeine dependent that they can&#039;t function without it, then they&#039;ve got a problem.)

And the comparison to alcohol always makes me laugh. Most people drink because they like the taste. Nobody smokes pot because they like the taste. People smoke pot to get high.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe a commenter actually claimed that chocolate ice cream &#8220;alters your state of mind.&#8221;  Smoke much?</p>
<p>And the mention of caffeine as somehow analogous to pot is kind of silly. No amount of caffeine is going to make you think you somehow perceive the world more clearly, or will write better, paint better, or be a better person. (And if one is so caffeine dependent that they can&#8217;t function without it, then they&#8217;ve got a problem.)</p>
<p>And the comparison to alcohol always makes me laugh. Most people drink because they like the taste. Nobody smokes pot because they like the taste. People smoke pot to get high.</p>
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		<title>By: Ricky H</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-438166</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-438166</guid>
		<description>I think the piece is well written, Michael. 

All the arguments in the world (no matter how truthful and well articulated) are ultimately useless when confronting the person who has found an idol that they&#039;re determined to keep around no matter what. We&#039;re geniuses when it comes to finding &lt;i&gt;reputable sources&lt;/i&gt; to bolster our side of an argument (especially with the Internet at our fingertips). Plus, we live in a culture that loves a short-cut. Words like cheapest, lowest, fastest, and shortest are some of the most powerful words in the consumerist liturgy we follow, prayers we pray, and praises we sing. And that way of thinking tends to infect every area of our lives. 

It bothers me that so many of the the pro pot Christians seem to spend a lot more time and energy researching and formulating arguments to defend their use of pot than they do looking into what it means to truly be a disciple of Jesus. 
 
Whatever the supposed benefits of marijuana, they are usually things that can be obtained through other means. Unfortunately, those other means require more time and effort than most are willing to invest. It&#039;s much easier to just smoke a joint. But the sad thing is, it often ends up making it harder to pursue those other means later.

There are no short-cuts to discipleship (or enlightenment, or creativity, or peace of mind), which is probably why we&#039;ll keep seeing the slide away from the Christianity of &quot;deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me&quot;, and toward the spiritual marijuana of Joel Osteen.

So I think your point, about the importance of knowing where your heart lies spiritually, is very well put. If Christ is the object of our deepest longings and affections, then we&#039;ll (hopefully) be hesitant to allow &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; to cloud those affections.

Flannery O&#039;Connor said, of a couple of friends who tended to drink to excess, that she believed they did so because they didn&#039;t realize how near God is.

Your piece has also opened my eyes to things in my own life that I have allowed to distract me from my first love, and for that I am very greatful. (Conviction is never pleasant, but it should always be welcome.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the piece is well written, Michael. </p>
<p>All the arguments in the world (no matter how truthful and well articulated) are ultimately useless when confronting the person who has found an idol that they&#8217;re determined to keep around no matter what. We&#8217;re geniuses when it comes to finding <i>reputable sources</i> to bolster our side of an argument (especially with the Internet at our fingertips). Plus, we live in a culture that loves a short-cut. Words like cheapest, lowest, fastest, and shortest are some of the most powerful words in the consumerist liturgy we follow, prayers we pray, and praises we sing. And that way of thinking tends to infect every area of our lives. </p>
<p>It bothers me that so many of the the pro pot Christians seem to spend a lot more time and energy researching and formulating arguments to defend their use of pot than they do looking into what it means to truly be a disciple of Jesus. </p>
<p>Whatever the supposed benefits of marijuana, they are usually things that can be obtained through other means. Unfortunately, those other means require more time and effort than most are willing to invest. It&#8217;s much easier to just smoke a joint. But the sad thing is, it often ends up making it harder to pursue those other means later.</p>
<p>There are no short-cuts to discipleship (or enlightenment, or creativity, or peace of mind), which is probably why we&#8217;ll keep seeing the slide away from the Christianity of &#8220;deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me&#8221;, and toward the spiritual marijuana of Joel Osteen.</p>
<p>So I think your point, about the importance of knowing where your heart lies spiritually, is very well put. If Christ is the object of our deepest longings and affections, then we&#8217;ll (hopefully) be hesitant to allow <i>anything</i> to cloud those affections.</p>
<p>Flannery O&#8217;Connor said, of a couple of friends who tended to drink to excess, that she believed they did so because they didn&#8217;t realize how near God is.</p>
<p>Your piece has also opened my eyes to things in my own life that I have allowed to distract me from my first love, and for that I am very greatful. (Conviction is never pleasant, but it should always be welcome.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Hunnicutt</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-437846</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Hunnicutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-437846</guid>
		<description>Imonk, I didn&#039;t understand the purpose of your post until you talked the context that you live in.  And then it clicked.

I don&#039;t smoke, and I barely drink, but I don&#039;t really see a big problem with moderate use.  However, if you are surrounded by a whole culture has become infected by mj as an idolatry, I can see the reason for your passion.

I read a story once about some fundie missionaries who went to Mexico preaching temperance and salvation.  All the poor were alcoholics and the rich plantation owners were using alcohol to keep them down.  The plantation owners would pay them nothing and sell them alcohol at huge mark-ups.  Anyway, so the fundie missionaries come in, start helping people get off alcohol.  They start using their money to send their kids to school and eventually the whole socio-economic situation turned around, all because the fundie missionaries got the poor of alcohol.  Alcohol was the glue that kept the whole unjust system working.

Imonk, it sounds like your situation is similar.

Anyway, I do have to point out a frustration of mine, why do we always get mad at the kids for turning to drugs to escape the pain of their lives instead of dealing with their pain?

I mean seriously, I know kid who uses a bunch of drugs, but part of the reason is that he comes from a terrible family. His mom told him at one point that he should go and commit suicide.

My question is, why do we in the church always talk about the drugs and the sex that kids use to the escape the pain, but never the pain itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imonk, I didn&#8217;t understand the purpose of your post until you talked the context that you live in.  And then it clicked.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t smoke, and I barely drink, but I don&#8217;t really see a big problem with moderate use.  However, if you are surrounded by a whole culture has become infected by mj as an idolatry, I can see the reason for your passion.</p>
<p>I read a story once about some fundie missionaries who went to Mexico preaching temperance and salvation.  All the poor were alcoholics and the rich plantation owners were using alcohol to keep them down.  The plantation owners would pay them nothing and sell them alcohol at huge mark-ups.  Anyway, so the fundie missionaries come in, start helping people get off alcohol.  They start using their money to send their kids to school and eventually the whole socio-economic situation turned around, all because the fundie missionaries got the poor of alcohol.  Alcohol was the glue that kept the whole unjust system working.</p>
<p>Imonk, it sounds like your situation is similar.</p>
<p>Anyway, I do have to point out a frustration of mine, why do we always get mad at the kids for turning to drugs to escape the pain of their lives instead of dealing with their pain?</p>
<p>I mean seriously, I know kid who uses a bunch of drugs, but part of the reason is that he comes from a terrible family. His mom told him at one point that he should go and commit suicide.</p>
<p>My question is, why do we in the church always talk about the drugs and the sex that kids use to the escape the pain, but never the pain itself?</p>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-437171</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 04:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-437171</guid>
		<description>iMonk, you rock. Your last comment is why I love to read your blog in spite of (or to spite) whatever differences we might have politically (many) or theologically (fewer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iMonk, you rock. Your last comment is why I love to read your blog in spite of (or to spite) whatever differences we might have politically (many) or theologically (fewer).</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Guttke,aka, ZwCephas</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-437097</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Guttke,aka, ZwCephas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-437097</guid>
		<description>Amen!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen!</p>
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		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-436927</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-436927</guid>
		<description>To anyone

1. Dump the legalistic/cultic church that tells you how to be spiritual.

2. Go to a church that tells you that Jesus is your salvation and your works do nothing to add to that or detract from it. 

3. Get in some dialog and measure your over scrupulous, possible OCD conscience against those of other mature, normal, Gospel loving Christians.

4. Read the Wesley quote and realize it&#039;s UP TO YOU to determine this, not for some blog or church to tell you.

5. Don&#039;t be one of the sheeply who believes that someone has to tell us a pile of rules on how to dress and how to act. That&#039;s not the Gospel.

6. Go overboard with the Gospel. Read the Luther quote on sinning to spite the devil for balance. If you err, err on the side of Gospel and grace. Don&#039;t give works righteousness or self-justification a foothold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To anyone</p>
<p>1. Dump the legalistic/cultic church that tells you how to be spiritual.</p>
<p>2. Go to a church that tells you that Jesus is your salvation and your works do nothing to add to that or detract from it. </p>
<p>3. Get in some dialog and measure your over scrupulous, possible OCD conscience against those of other mature, normal, Gospel loving Christians.</p>
<p>4. Read the Wesley quote and realize it&#8217;s UP TO YOU to determine this, not for some blog or church to tell you.</p>
<p>5. Don&#8217;t be one of the sheeply who believes that someone has to tell us a pile of rules on how to dress and how to act. That&#8217;s not the Gospel.</p>
<p>6. Go overboard with the Gospel. Read the Luther quote on sinning to spite the devil for balance. If you err, err on the side of Gospel and grace. Don&#8217;t give works righteousness or self-justification a foothold.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-436922</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-436922</guid>
		<description>Deb D,

I think people understood the point, but were having trouble with what they saw as the logical conclusions of actually following that line the end. That we could end up denying ourselves every earthly pleasure because we fail to reason how it fits with loving Jesus. 

That&#039;s my struggle. So now, does my TV watching, video game playing, etc. interfere with loving God? I could be praying or reading the word instead.

That may sound silly, but there are very legalistic churches that preach that. I had a friend that was involved with the Intl Church of Christ (and left) and told stories about how she was told not to paint her art anymore because it took away from her time with God. 

So where is the balance?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deb D,</p>
<p>I think people understood the point, but were having trouble with what they saw as the logical conclusions of actually following that line the end. That we could end up denying ourselves every earthly pleasure because we fail to reason how it fits with loving Jesus. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s my struggle. So now, does my TV watching, video game playing, etc. interfere with loving God? I could be praying or reading the word instead.</p>
<p>That may sound silly, but there are very legalistic churches that preach that. I had a friend that was involved with the Intl Church of Christ (and left) and told stories about how she was told not to paint her art anymore because it took away from her time with God. </p>
<p>So where is the balance?</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-436840</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-436840</guid>
		<description>(Michael, you are welcome to delete this as it is getting away from the original intention of your post, but I wanted folks to know that even though I think use of pot is very unhealthy and dangerous, I don&#039;t want people who use it once in a while to go to risk going to jail.)

I do not want it to be a criminal offense, either, for a person to possess a small amount of pot.  In Maine, it is a civil violation to possess a small amount of it.  But you cannot be growing any plants or you will be charged with a criminal offense, unless you have a doctor&#039;s written note that you need to use pot for certain medical conditions, but the patient can still only have a small amount of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Michael, you are welcome to delete this as it is getting away from the original intention of your post, but I wanted folks to know that even though I think use of pot is very unhealthy and dangerous, I don&#8217;t want people who use it once in a while to go to risk going to jail.)</p>
<p>I do not want it to be a criminal offense, either, for a person to possess a small amount of pot.  In Maine, it is a civil violation to possess a small amount of it.  But you cannot be growing any plants or you will be charged with a criminal offense, unless you have a doctor&#8217;s written note that you need to use pot for certain medical conditions, but the patient can still only have a small amount of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Cole</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-love-of-jesus-is-enough-a-meditation-on-morality/comment-page-2#comment-436817</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Cole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3103#comment-436817</guid>
		<description>I think you are being a bit tricky here. You are not writing about Marijuana use at all - you are writing about *anything* that we idolize above Jesus. This is more a meditation on morality, and how Christians should think about morality, rather than a meditation on pot - marijuana use is only an example. Christianity is not a list of do or do nots. It is a life that is centered around loving God and loving others - the love of Jesus is enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are being a bit tricky here. You are not writing about Marijuana use at all &#8211; you are writing about *anything* that we idolize above Jesus. This is more a meditation on morality, and how Christians should think about morality, rather than a meditation on pot &#8211; marijuana use is only an example. Christianity is not a list of do or do nots. It is a life that is centered around loving God and loving others &#8211; the love of Jesus is enough.</p>
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