Comments on: The Jesus Disconnect (5): The Processes of Discipleship http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:14:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Steve Scott http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-461824 Steve Scott Fri, 22 May 2009 05:57:35 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-461824 All of this is quite a lot to digest. I guess it shows that discipleship isn't a small thing. All of this is quite a lot to digest. I guess it shows that discipleship isn’t a small thing.

]]> By: Greg S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-461058 Greg S Thu, 21 May 2009 03:54:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-461058 You state that "all are not teachers", but would you say that part of discipleship is training all disciples to teach others to obey Christ? Based on the Great Commission passage (and others) we focus on the evangelistic and missional aspect rightly, but is not Jesus also and explicitly calling all disciples to teach others to obey Him too? You state that “all are not teachers”, but would you say that part of discipleship is training all disciples to teach others to obey Christ? Based on the Great Commission passage (and others) we focus on the evangelistic and missional aspect rightly, but is not Jesus also and explicitly calling all disciples to teach others to obey Him too?

]]> By: Thomas D. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-460942 Thomas D. Wed, 20 May 2009 22:51:35 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-460942 When you put it this way, Jesus sounds kind of like Amway or something. I'd rather be a Pharisee. When you put it this way, Jesus sounds kind of like Amway or something. I’d rather be a Pharisee.

]]> By: Surfnetter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-460864 Surfnetter Wed, 20 May 2009 18:48:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-460864 im --"It’s a life more active than contemplative, at least as I read it, but it is a life where a lot of attention is paid to “seeing” the realities of the Kingdom." I have to disagree -- it is a life that is entirely contemplative -- but entirely directed outward -- to God and neighbor. By inferring that contemplation is not this outward action and that the "active" Christian life is not contemplative is missing the point of the Gospels entirely, I believe. "Neither the healings nor the exorcisms of Jesus are requiring us to imitate Jesus miracles and exorcisms, but to ask what they tell us about Jesus and about his Kingdom in the present." Not only were the miraculous works directed to everyone He came in contact with a sign of the intrinsic outwardly loving and kind nature of God and His Christ, but were the signification of Jesus authority. The religious "authorities" and "scholars" of His time and place could not jive what He taught with their take on Scripture and so they refused to believe the import of the miracles. Before I finish I will clarify -- I see miraculous healings and exorcisms all the time. You have to know what to look for. Depressed, addicted and neurotic people were believed to have demons in Jesus day -- and it is probably true. I find it absolutely the case that when two or more people are gathered truly in the "Spirit and Truth" of God He is there among them and miracles happen. A church without miracles is not a church. im –”It’s a life more active than contemplative, at least as I read it, but it is a life where a lot of attention is paid to “seeing” the realities of the Kingdom.”

I have to disagree — it is a life that is entirely contemplative — but entirely directed outward — to God and neighbor. By inferring that contemplation is not this outward action and that the “active” Christian life is not contemplative is missing the point of the Gospels entirely, I believe.

“Neither the healings nor the exorcisms of Jesus are requiring us to imitate Jesus miracles and exorcisms, but to ask what they tell us about Jesus and about his Kingdom in the present.”

Not only were the miraculous works directed to everyone He came in contact with a sign of the intrinsic outwardly loving and kind nature of God and His Christ, but were the signification of Jesus authority. The religious “authorities” and “scholars” of His time and place could not jive what He taught with their take on Scripture and so they refused to believe the import of the miracles. Before I finish I will clarify — I see miraculous healings and exorcisms all the time. You have to know what to look for. Depressed, addicted and neurotic people were believed to have demons in Jesus day — and it is probably true. I find it absolutely the case that when two or more people are gathered truly in the “Spirit and Truth” of God He is there among them and miracles happen.

A church without miracles is not a church.

]]> By: paul http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-460711 paul Wed, 20 May 2009 13:36:39 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-460711 as far as Jesus' contemplative life compared to active life is concerned, i have found that work comes out of rest and rest comes out of work. Jesus worked when it was time to work and rested when it was time to rest. as far as Jesus’ contemplative life compared to active life is concerned, i have found that work comes out of rest and rest comes out of work. Jesus worked when it was time to work and rested when it was time to rest.

]]> By: Ron http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-460603 Ron Wed, 20 May 2009 09:57:24 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-460603 Good stuff, imonk! You're right on when you said that genuine discipleship is something that can't be programmed for mass consumption. It's a relationship and a full-time investment involving every aspect of life. Jesus spent a lot of time, effort, and energy pouring Himself into that motley crew of fishermen and social outcasts -- and His methods were world-shaking in their effectiveness. Considering how effective it was, it just doesn't make any sense how much effort and resource most modern churches and institutions put into trying to do discipleship and promote spiritual growth through programs. But, then again, personal relationships can be messy and unpredictable, while a well-designed, fine-tuned program can both boost attendance and raise the bottom line. One thing I would add about Jesus's method of discipleship was the way he sent them out (both the 12 and then a larger group of 70) to get some dirt on their sandals doing the actual work of the kingdom. It was almost like a practice run for when He later turned them loose on the whole world after His ascension. And they came back from this experience totally jazzed and bursting to tell about what God had done through them. In my own experience, nothing makes Christ more real to me than doing something He leads me to do. Somehow, action adds a dimension to faith that can't be accessed on a purely cerebral level. I think it's important to note that Jesus did not accompany them, and, apart from some basic instructions, He made no effort to micro-manage the situation. He actually trusted these misfits to spread His message and demonstrate the reality of His kingdom to the world -- not because of their merit as top notch disciples but because of the power of God to work through imperfect people. And I firmly believe that the same power, trust, and responsibility has been handed down to us. If we fail to invest in others what has been invested in us -- if we leave the matter of discipleship to the clergy or to church programs -- then we've both robbed ourselves of a real spiritual legacy in Christ and short-changed the One who bought us with His own blood. Good stuff, imonk!
You’re right on when you said that genuine discipleship is something that can’t be programmed for mass consumption. It’s a relationship and a full-time investment involving every aspect of life. Jesus spent a lot of time, effort, and energy pouring Himself into that motley crew of fishermen and social outcasts — and His methods were world-shaking in their effectiveness. Considering how effective it was, it just doesn’t make any sense how much effort and resource most modern churches and institutions put into trying to do discipleship and promote spiritual growth through programs. But, then again, personal relationships can be messy and unpredictable, while a well-designed, fine-tuned program can both boost attendance and raise the bottom line.
One thing I would add about Jesus’s method of discipleship was the way he sent them out (both the 12 and then a larger group of 70) to get some dirt on their sandals doing the actual work of the kingdom. It was almost like a practice run for when He later turned them loose on the whole world after His ascension. And they came back from this experience totally jazzed and bursting to tell about what God had done through them. In my own experience, nothing makes Christ more real to me than doing something He leads me to do. Somehow, action adds a dimension to faith that can’t be accessed on a purely cerebral level.
I think it’s important to note that Jesus did not accompany them, and, apart from some basic instructions, He made no effort to micro-manage the situation. He actually trusted these misfits to spread His message and demonstrate the reality of His kingdom to the world — not because of their merit as top notch disciples but because of the power of God to work through imperfect people. And I firmly believe that the same power, trust, and responsibility has been handed down to us. If we fail to invest in others what has been invested in us — if we leave the matter of discipleship to the clergy or to church programs — then we’ve both robbed ourselves of a real spiritual legacy in Christ and short-changed the One who bought us with His own blood.

]]> By: sue kephart http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-5-the-processes-of-discipleship/comment-page-1#comment-460409 sue kephart Wed, 20 May 2009 04:01:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3204#comment-460409 I would add to your list a healthy sense of humilty. Jesus humbled Himself and became man. Humilty is most certainly counter cultural today. I also think Jesus had a balance between his active ministry and His contemplative side. He got up early, went alone to a quite place. I speak from personal experience that if we don't make the time to do this we will not be affective and may suffer burn out. The worst offenders in not doing this are pastors. Although I see more and more clergy of all types making time for solitude and retreat (meaning a time alone for prayer, maybe reading/nature and rest). I would add to your list a healthy sense of humilty. Jesus humbled Himself and became man. Humilty is most certainly counter cultural today.

I also think Jesus had a balance between his active ministry and His contemplative side. He got up early, went alone to a quite place. I speak from personal experience that if we don’t make the time to do this we will not be affective and may suffer burn out. The worst offenders in not doing this are pastors. Although I see more and more clergy of all types making time for solitude and retreat (meaning a time alone for prayer, maybe reading/nature and rest).

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