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	<title>Comments on: The Jesus Disconnect (4): Paul and J.C. Ryle On Justification, Christian Growth And Christlikeness</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-463068</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 14:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-463068</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I so love and appreciate that we have this place where we can encourage each other.

It must give you the most amazing feeling to know that God is using you in this way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I so love and appreciate that we have this place where we can encourage each other.</p>
<p>It must give you the most amazing feeling to know that God is using you in this way.</p>
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		<title>By: MAJ Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-462159</link>
		<dc:creator>MAJ Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 19:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-462159</guid>
		<description>&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;Carol:

I have a part time retail job that makes me into someone I hate. Almost as much as I â€œhateâ€ the customers. Iâ€™ve mentioned here before that hate takes lots of energy, yet on the weekends, at that job,in no time at all Iâ€™m ready to rip someoneâ€™s head off.

This unhappiness is made far worse by the fact that Iâ€™m almost continually convicted that this anger is sin. What I hear is, â€œJesus died for you, forgave you and you have no patience whatsoever for these people.â€ And these people donâ€™t care that they are behaving in this way, so the only one suffering here is me. Then there are those colleagues who donâ€™t want to pull their weight.

It seems clear to me that God is trying to teach me how he wants me to be more like Christ. This whole deal seems like the essence of the Christian life. But what I really want to do is tell the customers, over the loudspeaker, what I really think.

What itâ€™s going to take to break me I donâ€™t know. I hate to think I wonâ€™t be able to escape the job until I just hand it over. And learn to let everything just wash over me.

And by the way, I am very grateful for the job. Iâ€™m fully aware of the current unemployment situation.&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;


&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;Patrick Kyle:
Carol,

Donâ€™t be afraid to search for a new job. If you are an alcoholic, bars are places to be avoided. If you have issues with anger, sounds like you need to avoid a place that constantly provokes and enrages you.

Iâ€™ll come clean; most of what passes for sanctification in my life is really what I call temptation management. I know in certain situations I will end up doing X or Y, so I avoid places and situatiuons that lead to those behaviors. The longer I donâ€™t engage in those sins the easier it is to keep avoiding them and eventually overcome them.&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

Patrick, much of what you say is very valid, ESPECIALLY in cases where it may lead to sin as a matter of course.  After all, you don&#039;t run down the middle of a busy street and not expect you could get run over.

I think all of us need to remember a few things.  First, and perhaps most important, nothing is impossible with God.  God will not give us more than we can handle.  We just have to trust Him.  &lt;b&gt;I struggle with that every day.&lt;/B&gt;  

To Carol:  this sounds to me like you have your cross, as well as your opportunity to &quot;become Christ&quot; to others, as well as to see Christ IN others.  

This reminds me of an EWTN Classic where Mother Angelica tells the story about her trip to a diner with an uncooperative waitress.  She asked for her coffee with 3 creams, like she always has.  The lady came back with 2, and disappeared.  She said rather than bite her head off, which her Italian temper would have her do (born Rita Rizzo) she gave her a decent tip, and blessed her (an informal &quot;God Bless You&quot; as I recall).  A repeat trip to the diner showed the fruit of the Golden Rule.  Apparently the waitress was having a really down day, and appreciated the kind gesture from the nun.  Mother got her three creams without asking.  I recall Mother&#039;s moral for this story is to consider that we don&#039;t know WHY people act as they do, not to make it worse, and often we can make it better by &quot;seeing Christ&quot; in the other person despite what may appear very ugly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Carol:</p>
<p>I have a part time retail job that makes me into someone I hate. Almost as much as I â€œhateâ€ the customers. Iâ€™ve mentioned here before that hate takes lots of energy, yet on the weekends, at that job,in no time at all Iâ€™m ready to rip someoneâ€™s head off.</p>
<p>This unhappiness is made far worse by the fact that Iâ€™m almost continually convicted that this anger is sin. What I hear is, â€œJesus died for you, forgave you and you have no patience whatsoever for these people.â€ And these people donâ€™t care that they are behaving in this way, so the only one suffering here is me. Then there are those colleagues who donâ€™t want to pull their weight.</p>
<p>It seems clear to me that God is trying to teach me how he wants me to be more like Christ. This whole deal seems like the essence of the Christian life. But what I really want to do is tell the customers, over the loudspeaker, what I really think.</p>
<p>What itâ€™s going to take to break me I donâ€™t know. I hate to think I wonâ€™t be able to escape the job until I just hand it over. And learn to let everything just wash over me.</p>
<p>And by the way, I am very grateful for the job. Iâ€™m fully aware of the current unemployment situation.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Patrick Kyle:<br />
Carol,</p>
<p>Donâ€™t be afraid to search for a new job. If you are an alcoholic, bars are places to be avoided. If you have issues with anger, sounds like you need to avoid a place that constantly provokes and enrages you.</p>
<p>Iâ€™ll come clean; most of what passes for sanctification in my life is really what I call temptation management. I know in certain situations I will end up doing X or Y, so I avoid places and situatiuons that lead to those behaviors. The longer I donâ€™t engage in those sins the easier it is to keep avoiding them and eventually overcome them.</p></blockquote>
<p>Patrick, much of what you say is very valid, ESPECIALLY in cases where it may lead to sin as a matter of course.  After all, you don&#8217;t run down the middle of a busy street and not expect you could get run over.</p>
<p>I think all of us need to remember a few things.  First, and perhaps most important, nothing is impossible with God.  God will not give us more than we can handle.  We just have to trust Him.  <b>I struggle with that every day.</b>  </p>
<p>To Carol:  this sounds to me like you have your cross, as well as your opportunity to &#8220;become Christ&#8221; to others, as well as to see Christ IN others.  </p>
<p>This reminds me of an EWTN Classic where Mother Angelica tells the story about her trip to a diner with an uncooperative waitress.  She asked for her coffee with 3 creams, like she always has.  The lady came back with 2, and disappeared.  She said rather than bite her head off, which her Italian temper would have her do (born Rita Rizzo) she gave her a decent tip, and blessed her (an informal &#8220;God Bless You&#8221; as I recall).  A repeat trip to the diner showed the fruit of the Golden Rule.  Apparently the waitress was having a really down day, and appreciated the kind gesture from the nun.  Mother got her three creams without asking.  I recall Mother&#8217;s moral for this story is to consider that we don&#8217;t know WHY people act as they do, not to make it worse, and often we can make it better by &#8220;seeing Christ&#8221; in the other person despite what may appear very ugly.</p>
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		<title>By: Ricky H</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-461866</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 08:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-461866</guid>
		<description>Is no one going to accuse iMonk of advocating &quot;works righteousness&quot;? That&#039;s got to be a first. 

I always thought the &lt;i&gt;&quot;If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me&quot;&lt;/i&gt; command was more proactive than passive. Am I wrong?

I&#039;m disabled, but I don&#039;t consider that my cross to bear, since I didn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;take it up&lt;/i&gt; (it kind of took me). But I often hear people say that something they&#039;re going through is their cross to bear.

I&#039;ve always thought taking up one&#039;s cross referred to living a life of sacrificial obedience, doing without things we might want (or think we need), or risking our freedom (or life) serving in a hostile environment. In other words, following where Jesus led, and being willing to take the heat (sometimes even unto death). 

I don&#039;t mean that everyone who follows Christ will be physically persecuted -- but perhaps we will be culturally or politically persecuted. Jesus always seemed to eventually get under people&#039;s skin, if they followed him around long enough. Why would we expect the world to find us any more acceptable, if we&#039;re truly following him??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is no one going to accuse iMonk of advocating &#8220;works righteousness&#8221;? That&#8217;s got to be a first. </p>
<p>I always thought the <i>&#8220;If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me&#8221;</i> command was more proactive than passive. Am I wrong?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m disabled, but I don&#8217;t consider that my cross to bear, since I didn&#8217;t <i>take it up</i> (it kind of took me). But I often hear people say that something they&#8217;re going through is their cross to bear.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always thought taking up one&#8217;s cross referred to living a life of sacrificial obedience, doing without things we might want (or think we need), or risking our freedom (or life) serving in a hostile environment. In other words, following where Jesus led, and being willing to take the heat (sometimes even unto death). </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean that everyone who follows Christ will be physically persecuted &#8212; but perhaps we will be culturally or politically persecuted. Jesus always seemed to eventually get under people&#8217;s skin, if they followed him around long enough. Why would we expect the world to find us any more acceptable, if we&#8217;re truly following him??</p>
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		<title>By: ASF-Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-461455</link>
		<dc:creator>ASF-Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 16:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-461455</guid>
		<description>Scylding - Pelagian cult, eh? Sounds like the CofC I grew up in. I do appreciate the response. Week after week of &quot;are you yielding&quot; can tend to shape the way you think about the Christian life. I do desire to &quot;set my Gaze&quot; towards Christ and not myself. But, uh, maybe you could send me a reminder text along with Jenny. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scylding &#8211; Pelagian cult, eh? Sounds like the CofC I grew up in. I do appreciate the response. Week after week of &#8220;are you yielding&#8221; can tend to shape the way you think about the Christian life. I do desire to &#8220;set my Gaze&#8221; towards Christ and not myself. But, uh, maybe you could send me a reminder text along with Jenny. <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-460951</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 23:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-460951</guid>
		<description>The Scylding - I like how you keep pointing out, basically, stop over-thinking about yourself and instead think about God and loving your neighbor.  Can you text me, like, hourly reminders of this??  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Scylding &#8211; I like how you keep pointing out, basically, stop over-thinking about yourself and instead think about God and loving your neighbor.  Can you text me, like, hourly reminders of this??  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-460867</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 18:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-460867</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t wait for the life to come. Start living it now. Meditation on the Gospels ( Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) as well as Acts are often helpful to people. By meditation I don&#039;t mean just reading it, although a good Bible study on these books is a good idea if you haven&#039;t much study already.

By meditation I mean a slow (even slower) and conscience reading. Pay attention to the words. This is the inspired Word of God. The inspiration (breath) is still in it. If something seems to catch your attention, pause and reflect on it. If you seemed moved to pray about it do so. This takes some practice sense we are used to speed reading and reading for tech directions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t wait for the life to come. Start living it now. Meditation on the Gospels ( Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) as well as Acts are often helpful to people. By meditation I don&#8217;t mean just reading it, although a good Bible study on these books is a good idea if you haven&#8217;t much study already.</p>
<p>By meditation I mean a slow (even slower) and conscience reading. Pay attention to the words. This is the inspired Word of God. The inspiration (breath) is still in it. If something seems to catch your attention, pause and reflect on it. If you seemed moved to pray about it do so. This takes some practice sense we are used to speed reading and reading for tech directions.</p>
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		<title>By: The Scylding</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-460861</link>
		<dc:creator>The Scylding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 18:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-460861</guid>
		<description>ASF-Brian - that is why I made the connection to Buddhism. The mystification of Christianity is unfortunate - and I say that, still being appreciative of (some aspects of) the monastic tradition. Simply put, you have to do what your hand finds to do, even if it is wiping snot off dirty little faces. 

At the same time, the expression &quot;Iâ€™m not getting any better&quot; is worrisome - it reminds me of the years I spent in the pelagian cult I grew up in. Stop worrying about getting better, about whether you&#039;ve yielded enough and all that (crassly put) mystified hubub: Christ made the sacrifice. Now do what He said in the Gospels. And rejoice in doing that. And don&#039;t agonise over your failure to reach perfection - it ain&#039;t gonna happen. Follow your vocation. Love your neighbour. Love Christ. Stop obsessing. This &quot;out of body&quot; stuff is missing the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ASF-Brian &#8211; that is why I made the connection to Buddhism. The mystification of Christianity is unfortunate &#8211; and I say that, still being appreciative of (some aspects of) the monastic tradition. Simply put, you have to do what your hand finds to do, even if it is wiping snot off dirty little faces. </p>
<p>At the same time, the expression &#8220;Iâ€™m not getting any better&#8221; is worrisome &#8211; it reminds me of the years I spent in the pelagian cult I grew up in. Stop worrying about getting better, about whether you&#8217;ve yielded enough and all that (crassly put) mystified hubub: Christ made the sacrifice. Now do what He said in the Gospels. And rejoice in doing that. And don&#8217;t agonise over your failure to reach perfection &#8211; it ain&#8217;t gonna happen. Follow your vocation. Love your neighbour. Love Christ. Stop obsessing. This &#8220;out of body&#8221; stuff is missing the point.</p>
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		<title>By: ASF-Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-460844</link>
		<dc:creator>ASF-Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 17:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-460844</guid>
		<description>Our pastor rightly emphasizes that we cannot become more righteous/sanctified out of our own willpower. However, he then camps out on the idea that if I&#039;m not getting any better its because I&#039;m not choosing to &quot;yield&quot; or &quot;abide&quot; to the degree I should be. He also says that the main reason Christ came is so we can be Spirit-empowered and get ready for the life to come. I suppose since Jesus did his part of the job that&#039;s why we don&#039;t talk about him very much...

My confusion comes in here - if I cannot of my own will become a better Christian(hate less, love more, etc) then how can I of my own will yield to the power of the Spirit? And then how can I actually tell if I&#039;m doing this &quot;good&quot; thing or if the Spirit is doing it through me. 

I&#039;ve heard it said that(by this pastor) that you should almost be having an out of body experience watching yourself do something and wondering how in the world that happened.

Any thoughts or comments this? Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our pastor rightly emphasizes that we cannot become more righteous/sanctified out of our own willpower. However, he then camps out on the idea that if I&#8217;m not getting any better its because I&#8217;m not choosing to &#8220;yield&#8221; or &#8220;abide&#8221; to the degree I should be. He also says that the main reason Christ came is so we can be Spirit-empowered and get ready for the life to come. I suppose since Jesus did his part of the job that&#8217;s why we don&#8217;t talk about him very much&#8230;</p>
<p>My confusion comes in here &#8211; if I cannot of my own will become a better Christian(hate less, love more, etc) then how can I of my own will yield to the power of the Spirit? And then how can I actually tell if I&#8217;m doing this &#8220;good&#8221; thing or if the Spirit is doing it through me. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard it said that(by this pastor) that you should almost be having an out of body experience watching yourself do something and wondering how in the world that happened.</p>
<p>Any thoughts or comments this? Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-460323</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 02:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-460323</guid>
		<description>Martha said, &quot;you will often grow weary of yourself.&quot;  Boy, isn&#039;t that the truth! Some days I can barely stand to be me.  But like Therese said above, &quot;When considering what it means to &#039;follow Christ,&#039; remember that Jesus came to &#039;be&#039; someone and to &#039;do&#039; somethingâ€¦.to be the representation of the Father to us (i.e., perfect self-giving love), and to proclaim the Truth that frees us.&quot;  And that is true too.  So the closer we follow Jesus, the clearer we are proclaiming the Truth which is that God loves us and wants us to be citizens of his Kingdom.  We need to keep reminding the world of that. Lots of people THINK they have heard the Gospel (good news) but they have not and so they lead lives of quiet and not-so-quiet desperation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martha said, &#8220;you will often grow weary of yourself.&#8221;  Boy, isn&#8217;t that the truth! Some days I can barely stand to be me.  But like Therese said above, &#8220;When considering what it means to &#8216;follow Christ,&#8217; remember that Jesus came to &#8216;be&#8217; someone and to &#8216;do&#8217; somethingâ€¦.to be the representation of the Father to us (i.e., perfect self-giving love), and to proclaim the Truth that frees us.&#8221;  And that is true too.  So the closer we follow Jesus, the clearer we are proclaiming the Truth which is that God loves us and wants us to be citizens of his Kingdom.  We need to keep reminding the world of that. Lots of people THINK they have heard the Gospel (good news) but they have not and so they lead lives of quiet and not-so-quiet desperation.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-4-paul-and-jc-ryle-on-justification-christian-growth-and-christlikeness/comment-page-2#comment-460183</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 23:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3200#comment-460183</guid>
		<description>I think what saves the McKnight statement is the word, &quot;before&quot;â€”church formation BEFORE individual formation. 

The bigger picture (that we so often forget) is that we are part of a larger storyâ€”that of God creating a people. My personal formation must be seen and pursued in terms of fitting in to what God is doing on that broader level. This totally changes the way I view my own formation.

As you have affirmed so many times, iMonk, it&#039;s about letting the Spirit shape my life so that it conforms to the Jesus-shaped, kingdom-oriented, missional, church-planting, world-Christian movement that God introduced in the Book of Acts and is still working out today. That comes first, and my formation enables me to participate in it.

This keeps me from viewing the church as a &quot;spiritual fitness center&quot; where I go primarily for my own well-being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what saves the McKnight statement is the word, &#8220;before&#8221;â€”church formation BEFORE individual formation. </p>
<p>The bigger picture (that we so often forget) is that we are part of a larger storyâ€”that of God creating a people. My personal formation must be seen and pursued in terms of fitting in to what God is doing on that broader level. This totally changes the way I view my own formation.</p>
<p>As you have affirmed so many times, iMonk, it&#8217;s about letting the Spirit shape my life so that it conforms to the Jesus-shaped, kingdom-oriented, missional, church-planting, world-Christian movement that God introduced in the Book of Acts and is still working out today. That comes first, and my formation enables me to participate in it.</p>
<p>This keeps me from viewing the church as a &#8220;spiritual fitness center&#8221; where I go primarily for my own well-being.</p>
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