Comments on: The Jesus Disconnect (2): How does the ministry of Jesus fit into our consideration of Jesus? http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:43:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: James Snapp, Jr. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-461239 James Snapp, Jr. Thu, 21 May 2009 12:06:53 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-461239 Scott and Michael, About the end of Mark: I encourage you to take a look at my full essay on the subject, a PDF of which (Origin of Mark 16:9-20, eMail Edition) can be tracked down at http://www.textexcavation.com/jimsnapp.html . Michael, I think it is clear that Matthew used a source that closely resembled the Gospel of Mark, but why do you think that source was Mark 1:1-16:8 instead of a form of Proto-Mark? How do you account for the "Minor Agreements" between Matthew and Luke where they share wording but where Mark's wording is different? (Example: Mt. 26:75 - ECELQWN EXW EKLAUSEN PIKRWS Mk. 14:72 - EPIBALWN EKLAIEN Lk. 22:61 - ECELQWN EXW EKLAUSEN PIKRWS) M: "See where Mark breaks off at “afraid,” and how Matthew follows that exactly and goes on." This looks like an argument from silence, as if the idea is that since Matthew does not use Mark 16:9-20, he must not have known about it. But a few things can be said against this: (1) I think Matthew used a Proto-Mark, but supposing that he had a copy of Mark that contained Mark 16:9-20, he may have perceived that it had not been added by Mark, and decided to take the narrative in a different direction to deal with the story of the guards. (2) There are other substantial parts of Mark that Matthew does not use. (3) Matthew 28:8 has APANGEILAI; Mk. 16:10 has APHNGEILEN in Mk. 16:10. (4) Which seems like the younger, more developed passage: Mk. 16:15-16 or Mt. 28:18-20? Yours in Christ, James Snapp, Jr. Scott and Michael,

About the end of Mark: I encourage you to take a look at my full essay on the subject, a PDF of which (Origin of Mark 16:9-20, eMail Edition) can be tracked down at http://www.textexcavation.com/jimsnapp.html .

Michael, I think it is clear that Matthew used a source that closely resembled the Gospel of Mark, but why do you think that source was Mark 1:1-16:8 instead of a form of Proto-Mark? How do you account for the “Minor Agreements” between Matthew and Luke where they share wording but where Mark’s wording is different?

(Example:
Mt. 26:75 – ECELQWN EXW EKLAUSEN PIKRWS
Mk. 14:72 – EPIBALWN EKLAIEN
Lk. 22:61 – ECELQWN EXW EKLAUSEN PIKRWS)

M: “See where Mark breaks off at “afraid,” and how Matthew follows that exactly and goes on.”

This looks like an argument from silence, as if the idea is that since Matthew does not use Mark 16:9-20, he must not have known about it. But a few things can be said against this:
(1) I think Matthew used a Proto-Mark, but supposing that he had a copy of Mark that contained Mark 16:9-20, he may have perceived that it had not been added by Mark, and decided to take the narrative in a different direction to deal with the story of the guards.
(2) There are other substantial parts of Mark that Matthew does not use.
(3) Matthew 28:8 has APANGEILAI; Mk. 16:10 has APHNGEILEN in Mk. 16:10.
(4) Which seems like the younger, more developed passage: Mk. 16:15-16 or Mt. 28:18-20?

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-459133 iMonk Tue, 19 May 2009 01:00:12 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-459133 When a book is recommended in the comments here, it can be quoted as an endorsement from me. I want to be clear on that one. I am not "disapproving." Just stating that this is, from the standpoint of someone with my confessional commitments, a radical deconstruction that appears, to me, to be Crossanian. When a book is recommended in the comments here, it can be quoted as an endorsement from me. I want to be clear on that one. I am not “disapproving.” Just stating that this is, from the standpoint of someone with my confessional commitments, a radical deconstruction that appears, to me, to be Crossanian.

]]> By: Waybe B. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-459114 Waybe B. Tue, 19 May 2009 00:14:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-459114 The Turton commentary (linked above) is not so much like Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrman, or the Jesus Seminar, but closer to Earl Doherty. I'm sorry you disapprove. N.T. Wright represents the "conservative reaction" against what strike me as quite reasonable objections to the historicity of the gospels. (Remember, *everybody's* a skeptic--against competing religious views, if nothing else.) The Turton commentary (linked above) is not so much like Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrman, or the Jesus Seminar, but closer to Earl Doherty.

I’m sorry you disapprove. N.T. Wright represents the “conservative reaction” against what strike me as quite reasonable objections to the historicity of the gospels. (Remember, *everybody’s* a skeptic–against competing religious views, if nothing else.)

]]> By: John http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458833 John Mon, 18 May 2009 18:22:48 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458833 I think people who grow up in the west tend to see the miracles and signs of Jesus as somewhat separate from the question of who Jesus is. But in many eastern cultures, these would be viewed not just as proof, but as integral to Jesus' identity. Many muslims, for instance, put great stock in signs and visions, so even today it is not uncommon for them to experience the reality and true identity of Jesus in and through such events. So the first half of the synoptics are really building the case for Jesus' true identity in a powerful way that doesn't always translate well to our western culture. I think people who grow up in the west tend to see the miracles and signs of Jesus as somewhat separate from the question of who Jesus is. But in many eastern cultures, these would be viewed not just as proof, but as integral to Jesus’ identity. Many muslims, for instance, put great stock in signs and visions, so even today it is not uncommon for them to experience the reality and true identity of Jesus in and through such events. So the first half of the synoptics are really building the case for Jesus’ true identity in a powerful way that doesn’t always translate well to our western culture.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458800 iMonk Mon, 18 May 2009 17:48:31 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458800 Look closely at Matthew's ending. Match up the Galilean reunion predicted in Mark 14. Remember that Mark would have had one appearance at least. See where Mark breaks off at "afraid," and how Matthew follows that exactly and goes on. Note that Jesus said in Mark 13 that the Gospel would be preached to every nation, and the command to do that is the ending of Matthew. peace ms Look closely at Matthew’s ending.

Match up the Galilean reunion predicted in Mark 14.

Remember that Mark would have had one appearance at least.

See where Mark breaks off at “afraid,” and how Matthew follows that exactly and goes on.

Note that Jesus said in Mark 13 that the Gospel would be preached to every nation, and the command to do that is the ending of Matthew.

peace

ms

]]> By: Kenny Johnson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458794 Kenny Johnson Mon, 18 May 2009 17:42:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458794 I think NT Wright suggested that both the original beginning and the original end of Mark were likely lost in history. It is interesting that Mark's beginning and end differ from Matthew and Luke (no genealogy, birth story, etc). I think NT Wright suggested that both the original beginning and the original end of Mark were likely lost in history. It is interesting that Mark’s beginning and end differ from Matthew and Luke (no genealogy, birth story, etc).

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458766 iMonk Mon, 18 May 2009 16:58:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458766 There was a whole conference on the ending of Mark at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. It's probably in their archives. I believe the ending was lost and can be found in Matthew 28: 1-10, 16-20. (See Edwards, Pillar Commentary on Mark.) Mark 14:28 indicates there was a meeting in Galilee predicted, and I do not believe Mark would omit it but Matthew include it. There was a whole conference on the ending of Mark at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. It’s probably in their archives.

I believe the ending was lost and can be found in Matthew 28: 1-10, 16-20. (See Edwards, Pillar Commentary on Mark.)

Mark 14:28 indicates there was a meeting in Galilee predicted, and I do not believe Mark would omit it but Matthew include it.

]]> By: ScottL http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458758 ScottL Mon, 18 May 2009 16:48:27 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458758 One thing I noticed about Mark is his use of detail/descriptive words. He has the shortest Gospel but takes time to tell us such details as Jesus slept on a <b>cushion</b> (Mark 4:38) or that the grass was <b>green</b> when he fed the 5,000 (Mark 6:39). I thought that was interesting. Probably not spiritual significance there, but interesting for me. Also, do you have any articles on the ending of Mark - 16:9-20? Looking forward to more on this series. One thing I noticed about Mark is his use of detail/descriptive words. He has the shortest Gospel but takes time to tell us such details as Jesus slept on a cushion (Mark 4:38) or that the grass was green when he fed the 5,000 (Mark 6:39). I thought that was interesting. Probably not spiritual significance there, but interesting for me.

Also, do you have any articles on the ending of Mark – 16:9-20?

Looking forward to more on this series.

]]> By: austin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458745 austin Mon, 18 May 2009 16:07:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458745 good advice imonk, unfortunately, the only book a lot of folks want to make a life's project is Revelation, I was having breakfast the other day at a restraunt having breakfast and there as a bible study group nearby eating breakfast and fellowshipping, they were studying Revelation, anytime I ask for suggestions about what folks in Sunday school might like to study next, Revelation, i talk to a stranger on the street or a co-worker, and they find out i'm a minister, they always have questions about Revelation Dont' get me wrong, it's in the canon, so I study it and accept its value, but there is so much more in the gospels good advice imonk,

unfortunately, the only book a lot of folks want to make a life’s project is Revelation, I was having breakfast the other day at a restraunt having breakfast and there as a bible study group nearby eating breakfast and fellowshipping, they were studying Revelation, anytime I ask for suggestions about what folks in Sunday school might like to study next, Revelation, i talk to a stranger on the street or a co-worker, and they find out i’m a minister, they always have questions about Revelation

Dont’ get me wrong, it’s in the canon, so I study it and accept its value, but there is so much more in the gospels

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-jesus-disconnect-2-how-does-the-ministry-of-jesus-fit-into-our-consideration-of-jesus/comment-page-1#comment-458741 iMonk Mon, 18 May 2009 15:55:57 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3195#comment-458741 He said make one book a life's project. I was drawn to Mark for a lot of reasons, mostly because of its teachability to students. He said make one book a life’s project. I was drawn to Mark for a lot of reasons, mostly because of its teachability to students.

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