Comments on: The IMonk Spends Five Hours With Scott Hahn: The Full Report http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:31:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Todd http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-254105 Todd Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:47:15 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-254105 Michael, Great post. I have read a couple of Hahn's books, most notably "Home, Sweet Rome." A few friends have either made that journey or considered it and then relented. You descriptions are helpful to any who would be interested in the subject and particularly Hahn's "evangelistic" fervor for Rome. Blessings. Always enjoy reading what emerges from your keyboard. Michael,
Great post. I have read a couple of Hahn’s books, most notably “Home, Sweet Rome.” A few friends have either made that journey or considered it and then relented. You descriptions are helpful to any who would be interested in the subject and particularly Hahn’s “evangelistic” fervor for Rome.

Blessings. Always enjoy reading what emerges from your keyboard.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-248754 iMonk Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:15:01 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-248754 Yes, and some were better than others. The post reformation ones are the problem. And I'll wager they aren't over. Yes, and some were better than others. The post reformation ones are the problem. And I’ll wager they aren’t over.

]]> By: Joe M http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-248652 Joe M Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:57:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-248652 I think that it is possible that early Christians were not excluded from the Last Supper for not believing that Jesus was really God and man - not just God's Son and not just the Messiah, or that God is really Three persons in One---- until the Council of Nicea. Is it possible that all these progressive refinements of the existing Faith, which were helped by the Holy Spirit, resulted in excluding previous church members? I think that it is possible that early Christians were not excluded from the Last Supper for not believing that Jesus was really God and man – not just God’s Son and not just the Messiah, or that God is really Three persons in One—- until the Council of Nicea.

Is it possible that all these progressive refinements of the existing Faith, which were helped by the Holy Spirit, resulted in excluding previous church members?

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-248594 iMonk Mon, 16 Jun 2008 02:09:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-248594 Bill, But no one was required to believe those dogmas in order to take the Lord's Supper until they were deogmatized. Bill,

But no one was required to believe those dogmas in order to take the Lord’s Supper until they were deogmatized.

]]> By: Bill B (AKA Theocoid) http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-248555 Bill B (AKA Theocoid) Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:47:24 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-248555 Hi, Michael. I found couple of links that lay out in more detail the Catholic Church's understanding of Mary's perpetual virginity. http://www.frtommylane.com/bible/enjoying_paul_old_testament/03_nt_gal1.19_brothers_sisters_jesus.htm http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap080300.htm In the case of the Marian dogmas, while these were proclaimed recently, they have been part of the traditions of the faith for centuries. What Catholics refer to as the Assumption is called the Dormition among Eastern Orthodox. Some of the other Marian beliefs are mentioned in the works of the early Church fathers and some extra-canonical texts such as the Protoevangelion of James. Good luck and God bless you, Bill Hi, Michael.

I found couple of links that lay out in more detail the Catholic Church’s understanding of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

http://www.frtommylane.com/bible/enjoying_paul_old_testament/03_nt_gal1.19_brothers_sisters_jesus.htm

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap080300.htm

In the case of the Marian dogmas, while these were proclaimed recently, they have been part of the traditions of the faith for centuries. What Catholics refer to as the Assumption is called the Dormition among Eastern Orthodox. Some of the other Marian beliefs are mentioned in the works of the early Church fathers and some extra-canonical texts such as the Protoevangelion of James.

Good luck and God bless you,

Bill

]]> By: Jeff M http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-247812 Jeff M Fri, 13 Jun 2008 01:23:44 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-247812 lonleypilgrim, I am in absolute agreement with you that Romans 14 leaves how and what we celebrate up to our individual consciences, but it doesn't say that the feasts no longer mean anything or aren't permanent. I have pointed out the passage from Isaiah 66 that speaks of celebrating the Sabbath and new moon(first of the month in Hebrew calendars) in the new heavens and new earth. Zechariah also has a prophecy of all the nations coming to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles. And I think Paul was very clued in to the meaning and implications of the Jewish Feasts. Look at his reference to Jesus as the firstfruits of the resurrection from the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23. The resurrection of Christ actually took place on the day the celebrated firstfruits and this makes the passage in Matthew 27:52-53 make a lot more sense in that light. I just read something earlier in Wright's book that helps put into words where I am at with this. It also has application here as this blog has moved to the JSS phase. "When we look at events in the history of the Old Testament, with these points in mind[essentially that Christ validated the Old Testament and completed it] then it has several effects. It means first that whatever significance a particular event has, in terms of Israel's own experience of God and in the articulation of their faith, is affirmed and validated. 'What it meant for Israel' does not just evaporate in a haze of spiritualization when we reach the New Testament. At the same time, secondly, we may legitimately see in the event, or in the record of it, additional levels of significance in the light of the end of the story - i.e. in the Light of Christ. And thirdly, conversely, the Old Testament event may provide levels of significance to our full understanding of all that Christ was and said and did." As I have been studying these, I have seen this type of realization in my own life. I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I just get too excited to hold it in(plus I am a pastor and sometimes we don't know when to stop talking.) My own blog posts have been reflective of this excitment, and I apologize if I am monopolizing the conversation here with it. For me it meshes perfectly with what I am getting from reading the iMonk and JSS blogs, because at its core it is a search to know Jesus as He was, a Jewish man and the Messiah, anointed Son of God. lonleypilgrim,
I am in absolute agreement with you that Romans 14 leaves how and what we celebrate up to our individual consciences, but it doesn’t say that the feasts no longer mean anything or aren’t permanent. I have pointed out the passage from Isaiah 66 that speaks of celebrating the Sabbath and new moon(first of the month in Hebrew calendars) in the new heavens and new earth. Zechariah also has a prophecy of all the nations coming to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles. And I think Paul was very clued in to the meaning and implications of the Jewish Feasts. Look at his reference to Jesus as the firstfruits of the resurrection from the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23. The resurrection of Christ actually took place on the day the celebrated firstfruits and this makes the passage in Matthew 27:52-53 make a lot more sense in that light.

I just read something earlier in Wright’s book that helps put into words where I am at with this. It also has application here as this blog has moved to the JSS phase.

“When we look at events in the history of the Old Testament, with these points in mind[essentially that Christ validated the Old Testament and completed it] then it has several effects. It means first that whatever significance a particular event has, in terms of Israel’s own experience of God and in the articulation of their faith, is affirmed and validated. ‘What it meant for Israel’ does not just evaporate in a haze of spiritualization when we reach the New Testament. At the same time, secondly, we may legitimately see in the event, or in the record of it, additional levels of significance in the light of the end of the story – i.e. in the Light of Christ. And thirdly, conversely, the Old Testament event may provide levels of significance to our full understanding of all that Christ was and said and did.”

As I have been studying these, I have seen this type of realization in my own life. I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I just get too excited to hold it in(plus I am a pastor and sometimes we don’t know when to stop talking.) My own blog posts have been reflective of this excitment, and I apologize if I am monopolizing the conversation here with it. For me it meshes perfectly with what I am getting from reading the iMonk and JSS blogs, because at its core it is a search to know Jesus as He was, a Jewish man and the Messiah, anointed Son of God.

]]> By: lonelypilgrim http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-247772 lonelypilgrim Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:51:26 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-247772 Jeff M, I would say that Jesus fulfilled Yom Kippur also, but He didn't do it on Yom Kippur. I have heard some Messianic Jews who claim that the 2nd coming will happen on Rosh Hashanah. I've heard some say that He was born on that day also. When I start hearing that sort of stuff that's when they lose me. As to whether or not the feast days were intended to be permanent, I appeal to Paul's statements in Romans 14 that one man honors special days and another honors all days the same and the neither is wrong. Jeff M,

I would say that Jesus fulfilled Yom Kippur also, but He didn’t do it on Yom Kippur. I have heard some Messianic Jews who claim that the 2nd coming will happen on Rosh Hashanah. I’ve heard some say that He was born on that day also. When I start hearing that sort of stuff that’s when they lose me.

As to whether or not the feast days were intended to be permanent, I appeal to Paul’s statements in Romans 14 that one man honors special days and another honors all days the same and the neither is wrong.

]]> By: Jeff M http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-247739 Jeff M Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:47:49 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-247739 Paul, I agree with you totally about symbols, but let me add one thing. Even if they are totally innocuous to you because they have been used by Christendom for so long, many pagans and others outside the church see in them the corruption of Christianity itself. I believe it damages our witness to a lost and dying world in some places when we forget where those things come from. What we do with them on a personal level is completely between us and God, and I am not intending to condemn anyone or judge anyone in regards to them. If I have come across this way, I apologize for it. I am just trying to point it out so that we as believers can be aware of some of the stumbling blocks that the church has placed in some folks path. As for the Divine inspiration of the Hebrew calendar, let me make a couple of statements. God's Feasts are tied to that calendar. He set them out on specific days of specific months of that calendar. Jesus also observed this method of timekeeping(not the Julian calendar that eventually was transformed into our current Gregorian one). We know this because the Bible tells us that he went up to celebrate the Feasts in Jerusalem with everyone else at the appointed times. Calendars are a funny thing really. I don't pretend to know everything about them. There is a good article on them <a href="http://www.servantsnews.com/docs/calbas.htm" rel="nofollow">here.</a> The author there makes some excellent points and tracks the Biblical relevance of the calendar the Jewish people use. Certainly the Gregorian calendar is more accurate in terms of what we observe astronomically, but in it we lose something that God is still doing today. The feasts are a testament to God's faithfulness for all. We still have the Feast of Trumpets(where no one knows the day or the hour it begins) and the Feast of Tabernacles (where God draws all nations to Himself) to look forward to in time. I still have to live in a world dominated by man's time, but I have made a conscious decision to pay attention to God's time as well . You asked me about the statement, "reworking God’s ways in our own image". Let me try to clarify with an example. God sets apart a day, Sabbath. He makes it clear that we will be keeping it forever(Isaiah 66:23). I did a post at my own blog in more depth on this a while back, but suffice it to say that we(the church) literally decided to move God's Sabbath to Sunday as this quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia indicates: "The express teaching of Christ and St. Paul prevented the early Christians from falling into the excesses of Jewish Sabbatarianism in the observance of the Sunday, and yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. I know plenty of people who refuse to this day to do any work on Sunday and so forth because this is what they have been taught. It isn't Scriptural and God never said it. We as people have taken what He did and changed it slightly for ourselves. That is what I was trying to say with that comment. I hope I haven't left the impression that I am fretting over believing or "falling into" the wrong kind of Christianity. That isn't where I am at at all. I am rejoicing at what God is showing me. I am about to start classes for my master's degree and just got my books for the first ones. One of the books is Knowing Jesus Through the Old Testament by Christopher Wright. I can't remember the last time that I got excited about reading a "textbook" before classes even get started. Let me also say that I have enjoyed this discussion with you. I have learned a great deal from it. I appreciate particularly the information about the Catholic Encyclopedia. I didn't realize that the info was that old. It is a good thing to know. Thanks for your work on it. It is a good resource for study. Blessings to you, Jeff Paul,
I agree with you totally about symbols, but let me add one thing. Even if they are totally innocuous to you because they have been used by Christendom for so long, many pagans and others outside the church see in them the corruption of Christianity itself. I believe it damages our witness to a lost and dying world in some places when we forget where those things come from. What we do with them on a personal level is completely between us and God, and I am not intending to condemn anyone or judge anyone in regards to them. If I have come across this way, I apologize for it. I am just trying to point it out so that we as believers can be aware of some of the stumbling blocks that the church has placed in some folks path.
As for the Divine inspiration of the Hebrew calendar, let me make a couple of statements. God’s Feasts are tied to that calendar. He set them out on specific days of specific months of that calendar. Jesus also observed this method of timekeeping(not the Julian calendar that eventually was transformed into our current Gregorian one). We know this because the Bible tells us that he went up to celebrate the Feasts in Jerusalem with everyone else at the appointed times. Calendars are a funny thing really. I don’t pretend to know everything about them. There is a good article on them here.
The author there makes some excellent points and tracks the Biblical relevance of the calendar the Jewish people use. Certainly the Gregorian calendar is more accurate in terms of what we observe astronomically, but in it we lose something that God is still doing today. The feasts are a testament to God’s faithfulness for all. We still have the Feast of Trumpets(where no one knows the day or the hour it begins) and the Feast of Tabernacles (where God draws all nations to Himself) to look forward to in time. I still have to live in a world dominated by man’s time, but I have made a conscious decision to pay attention to God’s time as well .

You asked me about the statement, “reworking God’s ways in our own image”. Let me try to clarify with an example. God sets apart a day, Sabbath. He makes it clear that we will be keeping it forever(Isaiah 66:23). I did a post at my own blog in more depth on this a while back, but suffice it to say that we(the church) literally decided to move God’s Sabbath to Sunday as this quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia indicates:

“The express teaching of Christ and St. Paul prevented the early Christians from falling into the excesses of Jewish Sabbatarianism in the observance of the Sunday, and yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day.

I know plenty of people who refuse to this day to do any work on Sunday and so forth because this is what they have been taught. It isn’t Scriptural and God never said it. We as people have taken what He did and changed it slightly for ourselves. That is what I was trying to say with that comment.

I hope I haven’t left the impression that I am fretting over believing or “falling into” the wrong kind of Christianity. That isn’t where I am at at all. I am rejoicing at what God is showing me. I am about to start classes for my master’s degree and just got my books for the first ones. One of the books is Knowing Jesus Through the Old Testament by Christopher Wright. I can’t remember the last time that I got excited about reading a “textbook” before classes even get started.

Let me also say that I have enjoyed this discussion with you. I have learned a great deal from it. I appreciate particularly the information about the Catholic Encyclopedia. I didn’t realize that the info was that old. It is a good thing to know. Thanks for your work on it. It is a good resource for study.
Blessings to you,
Jeff

]]> By: Jeff M http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-247737 Jeff M Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:13:50 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-247737 lonleypilgrim, That is more or less exactly where I am at. I think we can learn a lot be reclaiming the Jewish feasts into our Christian lives. God never intended for them to be done away with. There are still feasts that have fulfillment to be made. The Feast of Trumpets is a rehearsal of Christ's Second Coming, just as the rehearsals of Passover and Pentecost were literally realized in history on those dates. Part of the story is yet to be realized and the Jews are still rehearsing the script. lonleypilgrim,
That is more or less exactly where I am at. I think we can learn a lot be reclaiming the Jewish feasts into our Christian lives. God never intended for them to be done away with. There are still feasts that have fulfillment to be made. The Feast of Trumpets is a rehearsal of Christ’s Second Coming, just as the rehearsals of Passover and Pentecost were literally realized in history on those dates. Part of the story is yet to be realized and the Jews are still rehearsing the script.

]]> By: Paul http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-spends-five-hours-with-scott-hahn-the-full-report/comment-page-3#comment-247686 Paul Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:32:06 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2110#comment-247686 Oh Yes, as far as the Catholic Encyclopedia, I think it a great resource. That is why I contributed in small way for to the effort to get it into electronic form and make it available online. I find three downsides. It was published in 1908 so the articles had to be written before then. By necessity the articles are very condensed so difficult to read, and require lots of side trips to other articles if I am not very familiar with the topic. The online version, helpfully has blue highlighted hyperlinks, but every third word is highlighted and I find it distracting to read on the screen unless I reset my browser style sheet to display the links in black. God Bless Paul Oh Yes, as far as the Catholic Encyclopedia, I think it a great resource. That is why I contributed in small way for to the effort to get it into electronic form and make it available online. I find three downsides. It was published in 1908 so the articles had to be written before then. By necessity the articles are very condensed so difficult to read, and require lots of side trips to other articles if I am not very familiar with the topic. The online version, helpfully has blue highlighted hyperlinks, but every third word is highlighted and I find it distracting to read on the screen unless I reset my browser style sheet to display the links in black.

God Bless

Paul

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