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	<title>Comments on: The iMonk and Calvinism Q&amp;A</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-5404</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2006 02:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-5404</guid>
		<description>Michael,

Good post, and some interesting comments.  My two cents:  

(1) I second the suggestion above re: Barth, though I have a feeling you have read him somewhere in the past.  Try him agin.  He is attacked by most of the mad dog TULIPers o the net for his &quot;low&quot; view of scripture, but a careful reading will show that he just accepted the then current views of the skeptical historins, and basiclly told them that even if they were right about things like the historicity of the Bible, their theology was still screwed up.  Tody, with so much decent evangelical scholarship out there, he would probably say &quot;Great, I&#039;m glad to learn that the Bible has much stronger historical claims that I used to think it did, but yor theology is as screwed up as the liberals was 80 years ago.&quot;  

(2) People need to actually read some Calvin, and not just his Institutes and Commentaries.  He maintained a correspondence with Reformation figures throughout Europe, and was instruemntal in shaping early reformed Churches in several countries.   And he did this by being willing to compromise, even to the point of almost being able to agree with Luther over the Eucharist.  (He did if I recall corectly reach a deal with Melcanthon.)  There has been some more attention paid to this aspect of his career in more recent biographies and studies of the reformation, but the bottom line is that no one-- no one--exerted more effort to trying to bring about a reformation of THE CHURCH, not little prooftext based divisions of the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>Good post, and some interesting comments.  My two cents:  </p>
<p>(1) I second the suggestion above re: Barth, though I have a feeling you have read him somewhere in the past.  Try him agin.  He is attacked by most of the mad dog TULIPers o the net for his &#8220;low&#8221; view of scripture, but a careful reading will show that he just accepted the then current views of the skeptical historins, and basiclly told them that even if they were right about things like the historicity of the Bible, their theology was still screwed up.  Tody, with so much decent evangelical scholarship out there, he would probably say &#8220;Great, I&#8217;m glad to learn that the Bible has much stronger historical claims that I used to think it did, but yor theology is as screwed up as the liberals was 80 years ago.&#8221;  </p>
<p>(2) People need to actually read some Calvin, and not just his Institutes and Commentaries.  He maintained a correspondence with Reformation figures throughout Europe, and was instruemntal in shaping early reformed Churches in several countries.   And he did this by being willing to compromise, even to the point of almost being able to agree with Luther over the Eucharist.  (He did if I recall corectly reach a deal with Melcanthon.)  There has been some more attention paid to this aspect of his career in more recent biographies and studies of the reformation, but the bottom line is that no one&#8211; no one&#8211;exerted more effort to trying to bring about a reformation of THE CHURCH, not little prooftext based divisions of the same.</p>
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		<title>By: internetmonk.com &#187; Who? Me? How I Became A Pariah in The Reformed Blogosphere</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-4671</link>
		<dc:creator>internetmonk.com &#187; Who? Me? How I Became A Pariah in The Reformed Blogosphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-4671</guid>
		<description>[...] Thanks to them, I now no longer call myself a Calvinist of any kind. It really seems to annoy some of the Truly Reformed that I am a Christian at all, but I can&#8217;t help that. Predestination and all. Complain to God. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Thanks to them, I now no longer call myself a Calvinist of any kind. It really seems to annoy some of the Truly Reformed that I am a Christian at all, but I can&#8217;t help that. Predestination and all. Complain to God. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NTC</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2008</link>
		<dc:creator>NTC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2008</guid>
		<description>It sounds like you are struggling with your identify as a Christian right now.  I would recommend some of the writings at www.rbc.org, particularly the &quot;Discovery Series&quot; booklets.  There is also a section on questions people ask about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the church, and the Christian faith in general.  

You seem to be caught up in the expectations of others with regard to how you should worship and what you should believe culturally.  Because the Bible is authored by God, it is transcendant and immutable and independent of the traditions we have devised for oursevles.  When I struggle with questions about my faith, I open up the Bible and read, it usually answers my questions for the moment.

The important thing to remember is that labels like Calvinist, charismatic, etc. are man made, and thus, have nothing to do with God&#039;s ordained purposes for human beings.  Christianity is so much more than cultural expectations, how we vote, our positions on &quot;Christian&quot; concerns, or what schools we send our kids to.  It is about the saving and transforming power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His love for us.  That&#039;s what I try to keep in mind when I too have questions about my own faith.

Have a great day, and God bless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like you are struggling with your identify as a Christian right now.  I would recommend some of the writings at <a href="http://www.rbc.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.rbc.org</a>, particularly the &#8220;Discovery Series&#8221; booklets.  There is also a section on questions people ask about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the church, and the Christian faith in general.  </p>
<p>You seem to be caught up in the expectations of others with regard to how you should worship and what you should believe culturally.  Because the Bible is authored by God, it is transcendant and immutable and independent of the traditions we have devised for oursevles.  When I struggle with questions about my faith, I open up the Bible and read, it usually answers my questions for the moment.</p>
<p>The important thing to remember is that labels like Calvinist, charismatic, etc. are man made, and thus, have nothing to do with God&#8217;s ordained purposes for human beings.  Christianity is so much more than cultural expectations, how we vote, our positions on &#8220;Christian&#8221; concerns, or what schools we send our kids to.  It is about the saving and transforming power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His love for us.  That&#8217;s what I try to keep in mind when I too have questions about my own faith.</p>
<p>Have a great day, and God bless.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2009</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2009</guid>
		<description>&quot;Calvinism&quot; is really a misnomer simply because many people who take that name as applying to themselves are neither overly familiar with Calvin or the &#039;worldview&#039; of the magisterial Reformers in general.  

It has come to mean one who believes in the five points of Calvinism so-called but we must remember that those five points were drawn up as a very specific apologetic response to Arminian concerns.  They were never intended by their framers to be a replacement of the gospel or some sort of codification of it.  What many &#039;Calvinists&#039; miss today is the surrounding theological context which those five points are set in and what that overall context has to do with them specifically.

The theology and practice of John Calvin was so much more Christ-centered than the theology and practice of so-called Calvinism today in Baptist and other circles.  Calvin carried with him an incarnational catholic theology that was not merely a way to explain how salvation happened--rather it was a faith that transformed everything it touched.

Sadly, that is not what is meant by Calvinism today.  I believe you are on target here with this FAQ and I encourage you to keep it up.  If anyone needs to hear these things it is the very so-called Calvinists that get so upset at what you write.  I say write on and destroy the idols of today that we are tempted to bow down to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Calvinism&#8221; is really a misnomer simply because many people who take that name as applying to themselves are neither overly familiar with Calvin or the &#8216;worldview&#8217; of the magisterial Reformers in general.  </p>
<p>It has come to mean one who believes in the five points of Calvinism so-called but we must remember that those five points were drawn up as a very specific apologetic response to Arminian concerns.  They were never intended by their framers to be a replacement of the gospel or some sort of codification of it.  What many &#8216;Calvinists&#8217; miss today is the surrounding theological context which those five points are set in and what that overall context has to do with them specifically.</p>
<p>The theology and practice of John Calvin was so much more Christ-centered than the theology and practice of so-called Calvinism today in Baptist and other circles.  Calvin carried with him an incarnational catholic theology that was not merely a way to explain how salvation happened&#8211;rather it was a faith that transformed everything it touched.</p>
<p>Sadly, that is not what is meant by Calvinism today.  I believe you are on target here with this FAQ and I encourage you to keep it up.  If anyone needs to hear these things it is the very so-called Calvinists that get so upset at what you write.  I say write on and destroy the idols of today that we are tempted to bow down to.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Settergren</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2010</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Settergren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2010</guid>
		<description>What question is &quot;A. No. I would just say I am a Reformation Christian. The Five Solas are more important to me than TULIP, though I still identify with some aspects of TULIP strongly. Just not all.&quot; answering?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What question is &#8220;A. No. I would just say I am a Reformation Christian. The Five Solas are more important to me than TULIP, though I still identify with some aspects of TULIP strongly. Just not all.&#8221; answering?</p>
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		<title>By: Dolan McKnight</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2011</link>
		<dc:creator>Dolan McKnight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2011</guid>
		<description>I am so glad you are letting us lurkers in again, although I understand why you cut comments off.  I have always loved your humor and honesty on subjects not often dealt with by other writers,  and I like to get my two cents worth, such as it is, in.

I empathize with your being barraged by Calvinists who are bullies.  It is not that their beliefs are right or wrong, but their tactics can be so insensitive, cruel, and manipulative.  This has nothing to do with Calvinism per se, because the same tactics have been going on in the SBC over innerancy and other issues for twenty-five years, with many God-fearing ministers, many my mentors and friends, being attacked and besmirched
unjustly.

Power is a very corrupting thing that Satan can use to destroy Christian witness.  The SBC has not been purified by its controversy as much as it has been embarrassed, divided, and made more cynical.  The same will happen to the bullying Calvinists.

Doctrine is important, but love is more so.  Contrast the attacks on you by your critics with the way N. T. Wright deals with his, say in the Jesus Seminar.  He certainly does not mince words with his criticism of their scholarship, but he is quick to praise what he can and certainly does not make the ad hominem attacks that you have been subject to.

&quot;Reformation Christian,&quot; &quot;Christian humanist,&quot; whatever label you choose is fine with me.  The important thing is that Jesus knows your name and calls you to proclaim His Gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so glad you are letting us lurkers in again, although I understand why you cut comments off.  I have always loved your humor and honesty on subjects not often dealt with by other writers,  and I like to get my two cents worth, such as it is, in.</p>
<p>I empathize with your being barraged by Calvinists who are bullies.  It is not that their beliefs are right or wrong, but their tactics can be so insensitive, cruel, and manipulative.  This has nothing to do with Calvinism per se, because the same tactics have been going on in the SBC over innerancy and other issues for twenty-five years, with many God-fearing ministers, many my mentors and friends, being attacked and besmirched<br />
unjustly.</p>
<p>Power is a very corrupting thing that Satan can use to destroy Christian witness.  The SBC has not been purified by its controversy as much as it has been embarrassed, divided, and made more cynical.  The same will happen to the bullying Calvinists.</p>
<p>Doctrine is important, but love is more so.  Contrast the attacks on you by your critics with the way N. T. Wright deals with his, say in the Jesus Seminar.  He certainly does not mince words with his criticism of their scholarship, but he is quick to praise what he can and certainly does not make the ad hominem attacks that you have been subject to.</p>
<p>&#8220;Reformation Christian,&#8221; &#8220;Christian humanist,&#8221; whatever label you choose is fine with me.  The important thing is that Jesus knows your name and calls you to proclaim His Gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: J Rig</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2012</link>
		<dc:creator>J Rig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2012</guid>
		<description>Mike,

Comment and a question. Comment: I believe that Mark Driscoll is a Calvinist. Mars Hill and the rest of the Acts 29 churches (Imago Dei in Portland with Rick McKinley) are self-proclaimed Calvinists (they prefer Reformed), at least in soteriology. It is one of their distinctives and something they would divide over. However, I will say that Driscoll&#039;s brand of Calvinism is far more attractive to me as a young, would-be preacher. I think it&#039;s b/c Driscoll and those folks don&#039;t start with Total Depravity, but with creation in the imago Dei, which seems like a much more biblical place to start. To me it sounds similar to your Christian Humanism. Anyway, just thought I&#039;d throw that in there.

Question: I was curious about what you said about Piper&#039;s latest offerings leaning toward fanaticism. I&#039;d be interested to hear which one&#039;s you are referring to. If I might guess, I&#039;d say it could be &quot;Counted Righteous in Christ&quot; with it&#039;s polemics at the N.T. Wright types. I&#039;d be interested to hear more on what you think of N.T. Wright as well. I really like his stuff and though I may not follow him at every point, he seems to be restoring authenticity and historicity to the gospel by grounding it in the 1st century. Anyway, I&#039;d love to hear your thoughts on both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Comment and a question. Comment: I believe that Mark Driscoll is a Calvinist. Mars Hill and the rest of the <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Acts+29" class="bibleref" title="ESV Acts 29">Acts 29</a> churches (Imago Dei in Portland with Rick McKinley) are self-proclaimed Calvinists (they prefer Reformed), at least in soteriology. It is one of their distinctives and something they would divide over. However, I will say that Driscoll&#8217;s brand of Calvinism is far more attractive to me as a young, would-be preacher. I think it&#8217;s b/c Driscoll and those folks don&#8217;t start with Total Depravity, but with creation in the imago Dei, which seems like a much more biblical place to start. To me it sounds similar to your Christian Humanism. Anyway, just thought I&#8217;d throw that in there.</p>
<p>Question: I was curious about what you said about Piper&#8217;s latest offerings leaning toward fanaticism. I&#8217;d be interested to hear which one&#8217;s you are referring to. If I might guess, I&#8217;d say it could be &#8220;Counted Righteous in Christ&#8221; with it&#8217;s polemics at the N.T. Wright types. I&#8217;d be interested to hear more on what you think of N.T. Wright as well. I really like his stuff and though I may not follow him at every point, he seems to be restoring authenticity and historicity to the gospel by grounding it in the 1st century. Anyway, I&#8217;d love to hear your thoughts on both.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2013</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2013</guid>
		<description>Michael, I honestly think you&#039;d find a theological soulmate in Karl Barth.  He is someone who comes out of the rich theological heritage of the Reformation but whose theology doesn&#039;t reveal the faultlines that are currently showing in modern Calvinism.  I think you&#039;d be intellectually challenged, spiritual inspired, and experience great theological growth by spending time with his work.

I recommend reading his &quot;Dogmatics in Outline&quot;, which you can pick up for just a few bucks to get started. If you want more depth, reading Church Dogmatics II/1 and II/2 will change your life.  

After reading you for a few months, I think you&#039;d love him.  You&#039;re crying out for someone like him.  You&#039;d never be the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I honestly think you&#8217;d find a theological soulmate in Karl Barth.  He is someone who comes out of the rich theological heritage of the Reformation but whose theology doesn&#8217;t reveal the faultlines that are currently showing in modern Calvinism.  I think you&#8217;d be intellectually challenged, spiritual inspired, and experience great theological growth by spending time with his work.</p>
<p>I recommend reading his &#8220;Dogmatics in Outline&#8221;, which you can pick up for just a few bucks to get started. If you want more depth, reading Church Dogmatics II/1 and II/2 will change your life.  </p>
<p>After reading you for a few months, I think you&#8217;d love him.  You&#8217;re crying out for someone like him.  You&#8217;d never be the same.</p>
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		<title>By: James Aguilar</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2014</link>
		<dc:creator>James Aguilar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2014</guid>
		<description>I go to an Acts 29 church!  Hmm . . . Calvanist . . . not the way I&#039;ve seen Calvanism represented on the internet.  I always feel stupid when I read the writings of Calvanists -- like I&#039;m supposed to know more than I do.  Pastor Darrin does not make me feel that way.

Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I go to an <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Acts+29" class="bibleref" title="ESV Acts 29">Acts 29</a> church!  Hmm . . . Calvanist . . . not the way I&#8217;ve seen Calvanism represented on the internet.  I always feel stupid when I read the writings of Calvanists &#8212; like I&#8217;m supposed to know more than I do.  Pastor Darrin does not make me feel that way.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: graham</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-imonk-and-calvinism-qa/comment-page-1#comment-2015</link>
		<dc:creator>graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=141#comment-2015</guid>
		<description>Marvellous, Michael. I think I can appreciate exactly where you are coming from.

I found that as I explored more and more anabaptist ideas, many of my Calvinist friends and colleagues (including some that we both e-knew on a discussion list) almost acted as if I was reading p0rn! They almost seemed to fear for me because I was reading forbidden books! *Sigh*

When asked now, &quot;Are you a Calvinist?&quot; I tend to say, &quot;Well, I&#039;m not a non-Calvinist.&quot; For me, it&#039;s simpy a case of asking a different set of questions. It&#039;s not that Calvinism is wrong, it&#039;s just that there may be better ways to approach these things.

Anyway, thanks for a good post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marvellous, Michael. I think I can appreciate exactly where you are coming from.</p>
<p>I found that as I explored more and more anabaptist ideas, many of my Calvinist friends and colleagues (including some that we both e-knew on a discussion list) almost acted as if I was reading p0rn! They almost seemed to fear for me because I was reading forbidden books! *Sigh*</p>
<p>When asked now, &#8220;Are you a Calvinist?&#8221; I tend to say, &#8220;Well, I&#8217;m not a non-Calvinist.&#8221; For me, it&#8217;s simpy a case of asking a different set of questions. It&#8217;s not that Calvinism is wrong, it&#8217;s just that there may be better ways to approach these things.</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks for a good post.</p>
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