Comments on: The Gospel-Believing Christian In The Midst of Legalism http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:48:13 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Rarextera http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-488102 Rarextera Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:24:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-488102 Newbie here, I wanted to advise you of the <a href="http://malwarren2.tripod.com" rel="nofollow">malwarebyte</a> that is going around the net. This might be a bit off topic but hopefully it will help folks get that crapy spyware off their PC. Thanks, Newbie Newbie here, I wanted to advise you of the malwarebyte that is going around the net. This might be a bit off topic but hopefully it will help folks get that crapy spyware off their PC. Thanks, Newbie

]]> By: Whoa http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-339228 Whoa Mon, 22 Dec 2008 05:16:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-339228 To sum it up legalism is phony christianity and phony holiness. It's a hollow shell. It is alluring to believers because it is clear, predictable and concerned with being biblical. There are well known pastors who have a legalistic bent. Their 'seriousness' about being biblical and their joyless countenance speak for themselves. They have either directly or indirectly pushed a christianity that is about trying hard to follow God and obey Him out of one's own strength. They have given a picture of the christian life that is all about keeping God's laws...... joyless, lifeless, striving, mechanical and serious. They present the christian life as an endurance test to see who can suck it up and make it to heaven by pulling oneself up by their own bootstraps. When one comes to faith in Christ there is joy and passion and love and life and power........but after that it's all about moving on from cultivating an intimate and real relationship with God through His Spirit to focusing on getting down all of God's rules and trying hard to obey them and trying hard to avoid sin. Knowing one's bible and attaining more theological or biblical knowledge is what the essence of the Christian life becomes about. Sin avoidance and trying hard to obey God is what we're offered. No intimacy, no life, no power, no infatuation with a living God. It's all so sickening and yet people look up to these pastors and are so amazed by their bible knowledge. It's all a bunch of fraud. To sum it up legalism is phony christianity and phony holiness. It’s a hollow shell. It is alluring to believers because it is clear, predictable and concerned with being biblical. There are well known pastors who have a legalistic bent. Their ’seriousness’ about being biblical and their joyless countenance speak for themselves. They have either directly or indirectly pushed a christianity that is about trying hard to follow God and obey Him out of one’s own strength. They have given a picture of the christian life that is all about keeping God’s laws…… joyless, lifeless, striving, mechanical and serious. They present the christian life as an endurance test to see who can suck it up and make it to heaven by pulling oneself up by their own bootstraps. When one comes to faith in Christ there is joy and passion and love and life and power……..but after that it’s all about moving on from cultivating an intimate and real relationship with God through His Spirit to focusing on getting down all of God’s rules and trying hard to obey them and trying hard to avoid sin. Knowing one’s bible and attaining more theological or biblical knowledge is what the essence of the Christian life becomes about. Sin avoidance and trying hard to obey God is what we’re offered. No intimacy, no life, no power, no infatuation with a living God.
It’s all so sickening and yet people look up to these pastors and are so amazed by their bible knowledge. It’s all a bunch of fraud.

]]> By: Kasey "Rahab" http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-334483 Kasey "Rahab" Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:20:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-334483 Psalm 109 In the end results of prayers.......Psalm 23 Amen Rahab Psalm 109

In the end results of prayers…….Psalm 23

Amen Rahab

]]> By: Rebeccat http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-334411 Rebeccat Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:59:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-334411 Here's the test which I think reveals legalism's presence and heart: Do you trust God to work in the heart of a person who has claimed Christ, even when that work is not apparent to you? IOW, do you trust that if God shapes the heart of the believer, then all the rest re moral behavior will eventually fall into line? Or do you think that you have a need to try and discover a man's heart to discern their salvation for yourself? Do you think that without your input or the input of your leaders, that God will be unable to pull a believer back from their errors and sin? The Christian life is a process of purifying the heart and "putting on the new man" so we can be in communion with God and live His love in this world. And that is God work. It has seemed to me for quite some time that our tendency towards legalism reveals a lack of trust in God. We do not trust God to shape and transform our hearts, much less anyone else's. So we set up requirements, test and rules to ensure the good result which we do not trust God to provide. However, if we really trust God and His devotion to completing the good thing begun in us, even our sin is not so threatening because we know that God will arrive with his rod of correction and pull us back on course. This is freedom. And this is the freedom that legalism does not trust and tries to inject itself into managing. Just my $.02 Here’s the test which I think reveals legalism’s presence and heart:

Do you trust God to work in the heart of a person who has claimed Christ, even when that work is not apparent to you? IOW, do you trust that if God shapes the heart of the believer, then all the rest re moral behavior will eventually fall into line? Or do you think that you have a need to try and discover a man’s heart to discern their salvation for yourself? Do you think that without your input or the input of your leaders, that God will be unable to pull a believer back from their errors and sin?

The Christian life is a process of purifying the heart and “putting on the new man” so we can be in communion with God and live His love in this world. And that is God work. It has seemed to me for quite some time that our tendency towards legalism reveals a lack of trust in God. We do not trust God to shape and transform our hearts, much less anyone else’s. So we set up requirements, test and rules to ensure the good result which we do not trust God to provide. However, if we really trust God and His devotion to completing the good thing begun in us, even our sin is not so threatening because we know that God will arrive with his rod of correction and pull us back on course. This is freedom. And this is the freedom that legalism does not trust and tries to inject itself into managing.

Just my $.02

]]> By: Kasey "Rahab" http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-334188 Kasey "Rahab" Sun, 14 Dec 2008 04:30:34 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-334188 I am a Legalist...and I find some things written up top incorrect on usages of the word "Legalism in the Christian World". Example: written in the book of Psalms 1:1-2 "Blessed Is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or stand in the seats of mockers. But, he delights in the Laws of the Lord..Day and Night..." I pondered to myself as to the highlighted area up top-one; as well as quotes made I found, from Saint Augustine,Immanuel Kant, and my former Professor Dr. Goetz--prime examples in Christian Ethics. It appears that legalism can go beyond the improper use of scriptures; but, infactly "when and where is the key"...It can be used as a way of correctiveness; or, better yet, a crucial neccessity in the restraints from EVIL. Saying that than, ST. Augustine makes it clear in a small , but distinguishing statement, I wish certain fellow Chrisitians could hear.."Whoever tells a Lie, however good his intentions may be to protect a position/claim, must have a direct answer for his consequences of it...however unforseen they may have been...a lie ~ is a lie, is a lie. Secondly, Immanuel Kant is strongly opposed to the view (As I am) "To Truth Tell to Only those who have a right to it....therefore, lying is customly seen. Second, the duty to tell the truth makes no distinction between persons , but is "a unconditional duty that holds in all circumstances".... Meaning that it is our duty to be truthful to everyone." By lying to One Person , we do injury to all persons...and so forth....." This therefore, is violating the principle of Justice...Gods Laws observed. What I find as an atrocity of Sin, as well the statement of truth written up top that "millions of evangelicals are sitting under gospel-less preaching--hearing more repetitiveness of turmoil and gossip, moral ethics of their interpretations of ones life, the should be's....when they can't get their own acts together themselves". This is quite frightening to me....and keeps me greatly in a stance of "Legalistic Christian Skeptisum" verifying all teachings through heremenutics glossings over of my personal convictions instilled through my sound Doctrine,and the Holy Spirit involvement--mostly. Legalism Is Not a negative...rather a heads up folks to what on earth is around us, pay attention--also, containing a greatness in verification through grounded Pastors--without the need for gossip involved. Rather sound teaching gaining "Mercy and Forthrighteousness"...better equiped really in the end anyways. Rahab I am a Legalist…and I find some things written up top incorrect on usages of the word “Legalism in the Christian World”. Example: written in the book of Psalms 1:1-2 “Blessed Is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or stand in the seats of mockers. But, he delights in the Laws of the Lord..Day and Night…” I pondered to myself as to the highlighted area up top-one; as well as quotes made I found, from Saint Augustine,Immanuel Kant, and my former Professor Dr. Goetz–prime examples in Christian Ethics. It appears that legalism can go beyond the improper use of scriptures; but, infactly “when and where is the key”…It can be used as a way of correctiveness; or, better yet, a crucial neccessity in the restraints from EVIL. Saying that than, ST. Augustine makes it clear in a small , but distinguishing statement, I wish certain fellow Chrisitians could hear..”Whoever tells a Lie, however good his intentions may be to protect a position/claim, must have a direct answer for his consequences of it…however unforseen they may have been…a lie ~ is a lie, is a lie. Secondly, Immanuel Kant is strongly opposed to the view (As I am) “To Truth Tell to Only those who have a right to it….therefore, lying is customly seen. Second, the duty to tell the truth makes no distinction between persons , but is “a unconditional duty that holds in all circumstances”…. Meaning that it is our duty to be truthful to everyone.” By lying to One Person , we do injury to all persons…and so forth…..” This therefore, is violating the principle of Justice…Gods Laws observed. What I find as an atrocity of Sin, as well the statement of truth written up top that “millions of evangelicals are sitting under gospel-less preaching–hearing more repetitiveness of turmoil and gossip, moral ethics of their interpretations of ones life, the should be’s….when they can’t get their own acts together themselves”. This is quite frightening to me….and keeps me greatly in a stance of “Legalistic Christian Skeptisum” verifying all teachings through heremenutics glossings over of my personal convictions instilled through my sound Doctrine,and the Holy Spirit involvement–mostly. Legalism Is Not a negative…rather a heads up folks to what on earth is around us, pay attention–also, containing a greatness in verification through grounded Pastors–without the need for gossip involved. Rather sound teaching gaining “Mercy and Forthrighteousness”…better equiped really in the end anyways. Rahab

]]> By: Whoa http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-332025 Whoa Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:15:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-332025 Yes I've noticed that as well. Legalists use fear and 'holiness'. They use fear by quoting specific verses that talk about the last days. Some even use fear by quoting verses that speak of false prophets or false teachers or false or fake christians. This creates a church culture or enviornment of suspicion. This also leads to a kind of serious and solemn kind of christianity. This is not to deny that there are false teachers or that we live in the last days but I think Legalists sometimes use these things to control people. They also use the idea of being holy as a way of laying a legalistic vibe on people. Another thing I've noticed is that there is also a connection between Legalism and insecurity in a leader or pastor or christian. Some people get into ministry because of insecurities. They might be insecure of there physical looks. They then hide behind the bible by being really dogmatic to cover up their personal insecurities. Their dogmatism then becomes their identity. Being 'serious about God' becomes a blanket to cover up their insecurities. I have seen this. I remember seeing one pastor who had a reputation of being serious about obeying and following God. When he preached he would be dogmatic and serious. But then I would notice that he would have times when he would 'crack'. His dogmatic image when behind the pulpit would crack in informal or unplanned situations such as being face to face with people. It was those unexpected or informal times when I observed this about him. Legalism and insecurities and control can sometimes be working together. Insecure people want to be in control. They need to have everything planned out. Informal or unexpected situations are avoided. Next time your church invites a pastor to a retreat or to your church try telling them " We changed the schedule. We have alot of free time now before you speak " . I point this out because I think this is phoniness. I think its phoniness when a pastor steps behind the pulpit and speaks with dogmatism and with a bull doggish vibe and presents himself as someone who's got it together but then when he's in informal situation he starts to crack. There's a difference between acknowledged weakness and insecurities and transparency behind the pulpit and a phony 'holier than thou' image. Yes I’ve noticed that as well. Legalists use fear and ‘holiness’. They use fear by quoting specific verses that talk about the last days. Some even use fear by quoting verses that speak of false prophets or false teachers or false or fake christians. This creates a church culture or enviornment of suspicion. This also leads to a kind of serious and solemn kind of christianity. This is not to deny that there are false teachers or that we live in the last days but I think Legalists sometimes use these things to control people. They also use the idea of being holy as a way of laying a legalistic vibe on people.
Another thing I’ve noticed is that there is also a connection between Legalism and insecurity in a leader or pastor or christian. Some people get into ministry because of insecurities. They might be insecure of there physical looks. They then hide behind the bible by being really dogmatic to cover up their personal insecurities. Their dogmatism then becomes their identity. Being ’serious about God’ becomes a blanket to cover up their insecurities. I have seen this. I remember seeing one pastor who had a reputation of being serious about obeying and following God. When he preached he would be dogmatic and serious. But then I would notice that he would have times when he would ‘crack’. His dogmatic image when behind the pulpit would crack in informal or unplanned situations such as being face to face with people. It was those unexpected or informal times when I observed this about him. Legalism and insecurities and control can sometimes be working together. Insecure people want to be in control. They need to have everything planned out. Informal or unexpected situations are avoided. Next time your church invites a pastor to a retreat or to your church try telling them ” We changed the schedule. We have alot of free time now before you speak ” .
I point this out because I think this is phoniness. I think its phoniness when a pastor steps behind the pulpit and speaks with dogmatism and with a bull doggish vibe and presents himself as someone who’s got it together but then when he’s in informal situation he starts to crack. There’s a difference between acknowledged weakness and insecurities and transparency behind the pulpit and a phony ‘holier than thou’ image.

]]> By: John http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-332008 John Tue, 09 Dec 2008 18:55:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-332008 Thanks once again for reminding us of what really matters. The legalism of the culture wars in particular has a big impact where I live, and not a good one. The result is that people see moralists, not servants of the kingdom or followers of Jesus. The gospel is drowned out by the shouting, and this saddens me beyond words. My response has been to become pretty much a conscientious objector with regard to the culture war. One thing not mentioned in your post but that occurs to me as I observe the legalist landscape is that legalism is always accompanied by at least an undercurrent of fear; sometimes fear even becomes the driving force (again, witness the culture wars). What a stark contrast to the biblical admonition to love and the truth that perfect love casts out fear! Thanks once again for reminding us of what really matters. The legalism of the culture wars in particular has a big impact where I live, and not a good one. The result is that people see moralists, not servants of the kingdom or followers of Jesus. The gospel is drowned out by the shouting, and this saddens me beyond words. My response has been to become pretty much a conscientious objector with regard to the culture war.

One thing not mentioned in your post but that occurs to me as I observe the legalist landscape is that legalism is always accompanied by at least an undercurrent of fear; sometimes fear even becomes the driving force (again, witness the culture wars). What a stark contrast to the biblical admonition to love and the truth that perfect love casts out fear!

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-331992 Headless Unicorn Guy Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:20:56 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-331992 <i>And, of course, we need an authority figure telling us what to do so none of us have to actually think for ourselves, because you know how sinful your thoughts are.</i> -- IMonk Until the only difference between Christians and Communists is they quote different Party Lines. And Christ becomes just a Cosmic-level Comrade Dear Leader. And, of course, we need an authority figure telling us what to do so none of us have to actually think for ourselves, because you know how sinful your thoughts are. — IMonk

Until the only difference between Christians and Communists is they quote different Party Lines. And Christ becomes just a Cosmic-level Comrade Dear Leader.

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-331991 Headless Unicorn Guy Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:17:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-331991 <i>you can’t do A,B or C either because it might look like Z to Joe. Joe thinks X is forbidden so therefore he doesn’t do Z or Y just to be safe.</i> -- JMJ Until all is Forbidden, and what is not Forbidden is Absolutely Compulsory. North Korea with a Christian coat of paint. <i>Joe might stumble if he thinks you are doing Z (he’s the weaker brother . . . who’s been a Christian three times longer than you)</i> --JMJ I have zero tolerance for "Professional Weaker Brethren". That's "Just like Tyranny of the Perpetually Offended, but CHRISTIAN (TM)!" And there are a lot of them out there. I have a burned-out preacher bud who has to constantly hide from the Church Ladies just to be able to function. St Paul talked about "milk and meat"; well he's got to deal with parishoners who not only reject the meat, but spit out the milk as well. "WE WANT CANDY! WE WANT CANDY!" you can’t do A,B or C either because it might look like Z to Joe. Joe thinks X is forbidden so therefore he doesn’t do Z or Y just to be safe. — JMJ

Until all is Forbidden, and what is not Forbidden is Absolutely Compulsory. North Korea with a Christian coat of paint.

Joe might stumble if he thinks you are doing Z (he’s the weaker brother . . . who’s been a Christian three times longer than you) –JMJ

I have zero tolerance for “Professional Weaker Brethren”. That’s “Just like Tyranny of the Perpetually Offended, but CHRISTIAN (TM)!”

And there are a lot of them out there. I have a burned-out preacher bud who has to constantly hide from the Church Ladies just to be able to function. St Paul talked about “milk and meat”; well he’s got to deal with parishoners who not only reject the meat, but spit out the milk as well. “WE WANT CANDY! WE WANT CANDY!”

]]> By: Haley Ballast http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-gospel-believing-christian-in-the-midst-of-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-331879 Haley Ballast Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:05:49 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2609#comment-331879 Great post. I just want to take the opportunity to say thank you. Thank you for speaking the truth and allowing God to use you as you do so. I know He has used your words in my life. I just posted today about culture wars vs Gospel (before I read this post). Now reading this and re-reading my blog I can see that I've been listening to you! haleyballast.blogspot.com if you're interested. :) Great post. I just want to take the opportunity to say thank you. Thank you for speaking the truth and allowing God to use you as you do so. I know He has used your words in my life. I just posted today about culture wars vs Gospel (before I read this post). Now reading this and re-reading my blog I can see that I’ve been listening to you!

haleyballast.blogspot.com if you’re interested. :)

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