Comments on: The God of Job’s Complaints http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:33:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Robert Sutherland http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240810 Robert Sutherland Sat, 17 May 2008 22:31:17 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240810 You might be interested in this online commentary "Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job" (http://www.bookofjob.org) as supplementary or background material for your study of the Book of Job. It is written by a Canadian criminal defense lawyer, now a Crown prosecutor, and it explores the legal and moral dynamics of the Book of Job with particular emphasis on the distinction between causal responsibility and moral blameworthiness embedded in Job’s Oath of Innocence. It is highly praised by Job scholars (Clines, Janzen, Habel) and the Review of Biblical Literature, all of whose reviews are on the website. The author is an evangelical Christian, denominationally Anglican. He is also the Canadian Director for the Mortimer J. Adler Centre for the Study of the Great Ideas, a Chicago-based think tank. You might be interested in this online commentary “Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job” (http://www.bookofjob.org) as supplementary or background material for your study of the Book of Job. It is written by a Canadian criminal defense lawyer, now a Crown prosecutor, and it explores the legal and moral dynamics of the Book of Job with particular emphasis on the distinction between causal responsibility and moral blameworthiness embedded in Job’s Oath of Innocence. It is highly praised by Job scholars (Clines, Janzen, Habel) and the Review of Biblical Literature, all of whose reviews are on the website. The author is an evangelical Christian, denominationally Anglican. He is also the Canadian Director for the Mortimer J. Adler Centre for the Study of the Great Ideas, a Chicago-based think tank.

]]> By: Andy Wood http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240345 Andy Wood Fri, 16 May 2008 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240345 Honest to God. Wow. What a concept. It's in nearly every header in Psalms in my KJV: "David complaineth to God" (the big baby!). Jeremiah (20:7, 4:10) called him a liar. Moses hurled at Him - "I didn't birth these people!" Jesus said, "I can't do this." Of course, they didn't have TV producers, agents, or cathedrals to pay for. Honest to God. Wow. What a concept.

It’s in nearly every header in Psalms in my KJV: “David complaineth to God” (the big baby!).

Jeremiah (20:7, 4:10) called him a liar.

Moses hurled at Him - “I didn’t birth these people!”

Jesus said, “I can’t do this.”

Of course, they didn’t have TV producers, agents, or cathedrals to pay for.

]]> By: Veto Roley http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240185 Veto Roley Fri, 16 May 2008 08:02:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240185 One of my favorite passages of the Bible is Hab. 1:2-4: "How long, O LORD, will I call for help, and You will not hear? I cry out to You, "Violence!" Yet You do not save. Why do You make me see iniquity, and cause me to look on wickedness? Yes, destruction and violence are before me; strife exists and contention arises. Therefore the law is ignored and justice is never upheld for the wicked surround the righteous; therefore justice comes out perverted." It is not sin to be angry with God. It is sin to let our anger with Him destroy our faith in Him. God is big enough for our anger and hurt. To deny our anger and hurt, particularly with God, can cost us our faith. Veto One of my favorite passages of the Bible is Hab. 1:2-4: “How long, O LORD, will I call for help, and You will not hear? I cry out to You, “Violence!” Yet You do not save. Why do You make me see iniquity, and cause me to look on wickedness? Yes, destruction and violence are before me; strife exists and contention arises. Therefore the law is ignored and justice is never upheld for the wicked surround the righteous; therefore justice comes out perverted.”

It is not sin to be angry with God. It is sin to let our anger with Him destroy our faith in Him. God is big enough for our anger and hurt. To deny our anger and hurt, particularly with God, can cost us our faith.

Veto

]]> By: dumb ox http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240146 dumb ox Fri, 16 May 2008 04:30:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240146 The writers of Job, Psalms, Habakkuk and Lamentations did not worship a small God. That in turn gives rise to the human experience. The smaller we make God with our instant, ready-made pragmatism, the smaller we become. This quote might fit well, especially with Psalm 22 (hope it's not too long): "The courage of the Reformers is not the courage to be oneself...The Reformation pronounces the opposite: one can become confident about one's existence only after ceasing to base one's confidence on oneself. On the other hand the courage of confidence is in no way based on anything finite besides oneself, not even on the Church. It is based on God and solely God, who is experienced in a unique and personal encounter. The courage of the Reformation transcends both the courage to be as a part and the courage to be as oneself. It is threatened neither by the loss of oneself nor by the loss of one's world." - Paul Tillich, from "Courage to Be". The writers of Job, Psalms, Habakkuk and Lamentations did not worship a small God. That in turn gives rise to the human experience. The smaller we make God with our instant, ready-made pragmatism, the smaller we become.

This quote might fit well, especially with Psalm 22 (hope it’s not too long):

“The courage of the Reformers is not the courage to be oneself…The Reformation pronounces the opposite: one can become confident about one’s existence only after ceasing to base one’s confidence on oneself. On the other hand the courage of confidence is in no way based on anything finite besides oneself, not even on the Church. It is based on God and solely God, who is experienced in a unique and personal encounter. The courage of the Reformation transcends both the courage to be as a part and the courage to be as oneself. It is threatened neither by the loss of oneself nor by the loss of one’s world.”
- Paul Tillich, from “Courage to Be”.

]]> By: Charlie http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240138 Charlie Fri, 16 May 2008 03:15:44 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240138 Proof positive that God has no personal security hang-ups. As a father I understood that my kids should respect me and my position in the home and family. All well and good, but when they would air their complaints to me in ways that seemed disrespectful I would protest (or should I say pout). While God deserves our utmost respect he seems big enough to stand toe to toe with us and listen to our verbal flailings with beautiful patience, compassion, and understanding. Our God is indeed an awesome God. Proof positive that God has no personal security hang-ups. As a father I understood that my kids should respect me and my position in the home and family. All well and good, but when they would air their complaints to me in ways that seemed disrespectful I would protest (or should I say pout). While God deserves our utmost respect he seems big enough to stand toe to toe with us and listen to our verbal flailings with beautiful patience, compassion, and understanding. Our God is indeed an awesome God.

]]> By: Tim Melton http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240128 Tim Melton Fri, 16 May 2008 02:40:32 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240128 It seems that true "intimate" dependence upon Jesus cannot deepen unless it is tried in the fires of suffering. We see this so clearly in Job's words at the end of the book "I had heard of you with the ear, but now I see you face to face (Job 42:5). Jacob also experiences this intimacy gained through struggle when He wrestled with God and received a broken hip out of the deal (Genesis 32:24-32). God calls this broken hip a blessing, for Jacob has striven with God and prevailed. This is an odd thing for God to say since He put Jacob's legs in a pretzel and yanked his hip out of joint so severely that Jacob walked with a limp the rest of his life. God calls this a "win" for Jacob! Again, this seems out of place. God is saying, "The one who wrestles with God and loses is the one who wins." What does he win? He wins God. He gets God. Interestingly, Jacob says the same thing Job said, "I have seen God face to face. And I am blessed." In the meantime, God does not expect us to act like there is no pain in this wrestling match. He wants us to be authentic, to weep, to cry, to wail, to whine, to wince, to fight, and to mourn. What's even more surprising to us is that as Christ walks us through this valley of death, even though He is often directly responsible for our pain, He hurts along with us. Just as Jesus wept with Martha and Mary after the death of Lazarus, Jesus also weeps with us. He cries with us. He feels our pain. He knows how we feel better than we do. Like it or not, Authentic faith simply does not occur without an authentic response to Jesus in the midst of pain and struggle. I hate it that this is true. How many times have I cried the words that Jesus cried in Gethsemane, "Father, is there any other way? Yet not my will, but your will be done (Matthew 26:39)." Yet, we often get the same answer that Jesus got. There is no other way. This is what it means to share in the sufferings of Christ; sufferings that Paul counted as a blessing. And blessing it is... Yet, we are not expected to go through these sufferings as automatons. If Jesus wept, then certainly we are freed to weep also. If Jesus cried "My God why have you forsaken me", then how much more are we freed to cry the same thing. It seems that true “intimate” dependence upon Jesus cannot deepen unless it is tried in the fires of
suffering. We see this so clearly in Job’s words at the end of the book “I had heard of you with the ear, but now I see you face to face (Job 42:5).

Jacob also experiences this intimacy gained through struggle when He wrestled with God and received a broken hip out of the deal (Genesis 32:24-32). God calls this broken hip a blessing, for Jacob has striven with God and prevailed. This is an odd thing for God to say since He put Jacob’s legs in a pretzel and yanked his hip out of joint so severely that Jacob walked with a limp the rest of his life. God calls this a “win” for Jacob! Again, this seems out of place. God is saying, “The one who wrestles with God and loses is the one who wins.” What does he win? He wins God. He gets God. Interestingly, Jacob says the same thing Job said, “I have seen God face to face. And I am blessed.”

In the meantime, God does not expect us to act like there is no pain in this wrestling match. He wants us to be authentic, to weep, to cry, to wail, to whine, to wince, to fight, and to mourn. What’s even more surprising to us is that as Christ walks us through this valley of death, even though He is often directly responsible for our pain, He hurts along with us. Just as Jesus wept with Martha and Mary after the death of Lazarus, Jesus also weeps with us. He cries with us. He feels our pain. He knows how we feel better than we do.

Like it or not, Authentic faith simply does not occur without an authentic response to Jesus in the midst of pain and struggle.

I hate it that this is true. How many times have I cried the words that Jesus cried in Gethsemane, “Father, is there any other way? Yet not my will, but your will be done (Matthew 26:39).” Yet, we often get the same answer that Jesus got. There is no other way. This is what it means to share in the sufferings of Christ; sufferings that Paul counted as a blessing. And blessing it is…

Yet, we are not expected to go through these sufferings as automatons. If Jesus wept, then certainly we are freed to weep also. If Jesus cried “My God why have you forsaken me”, then how much more are we freed to cry the same thing.

]]> By: Clark http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240127 Clark Fri, 16 May 2008 02:40:32 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240127 I think the most important thing to walk away from Job with is the idea that we cannot understand God. We can learn about God, draw closer to God, do all kinds of things for God; but he surpasses our understanding. I talk a lot about how Jesus is the image of the invisible God in Colossians 1. But even Jesus teachings of God and the Kingdom are given in metaphor and simile - God is like this, or the Kingdom of God is like ... whatever. I can't put my finger on the reference, but "God's ways are not man's ways." Our level of comprehension and understanding are not sufficient to wrap our mind around the full knowledge of God. Our mental image is nowhere even close. For all Job says right about God, God tells him there is more. I question anyone that doesn't have any questions about God. That person no longer has any room to grow. I think the most important thing to walk away from Job with is the idea that we cannot understand God. We can learn about God, draw closer to God, do all kinds of things for God; but he surpasses our understanding. I talk a lot about how Jesus is the image of the invisible God in Colossians 1. But even Jesus teachings of God and the Kingdom are given in metaphor and simile - God is like this, or the Kingdom of God is like … whatever. I can’t put my finger on the reference, but “God’s ways are not man’s ways.” Our level of comprehension and understanding are not sufficient to wrap our mind around the full knowledge of God. Our mental image is nowhere even close. For all Job says right about God, God tells him there is more. I question anyone that doesn’t have any questions about God. That person no longer has any room to grow.

]]> By: Jeremiah http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-god-of-job%e2%80%99s-complaints#comment-240109 Jeremiah Fri, 16 May 2008 01:45:01 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2073#comment-240109 yep, one of my favorite books. I have seen so many Christians act as though Job was wrong that it's as though they never read the part where God says to Satan "though you have incited me to persecute him without casue." People are often so eager to skip to the providential plan they downplay that God Himself says that what Job got was not because he deserved it. Ever since I read Job in the mid to late teens I took it as a sign that God would rather I go to him with genuine doubt than talk about Him to others with a fatuous faith. yep, one of my favorite books. I have seen so many Christians act as though Job was wrong that it’s as though they never read the part where God says to Satan “though you have incited me to persecute him without casue.” People are often so eager to skip to the providential plan they downplay that God Himself says that what Job got was not because he deserved it. Ever since I read Job in the mid to late teens I took it as a sign that God would rather I go to him with genuine doubt than talk about Him to others with a fatuous faith.

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