Comments on: The Evangelical Liturgy 12: The Assurance of Pardon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:14:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: fws http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-514613 fws Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:50:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-514613 by the way, you are so very right, the forgiveness of sins in christ is the same forgiveness of sins in whatever form it comes in. and it needs to be proclaimed unconditionally and not offered conditionally. by the way, you are so very right, the forgiveness of sins in christ is the same forgiveness of sins in whatever form it comes in. and it needs to be proclaimed unconditionally and not offered conditionally.

]]> By: fws http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-514612 fws Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:46:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-514612 I hope this will help and will not fit in the category of denominational comercial: it might be helpful to think here of the concept of office? for some strange reason christians have no problems with "office" in the secular world and they do in the church. When a judge acts in his officlal capacity. he usually says "I, by the power invested in me by the people of the state of ____ condemn/pronounce you man and wife." no one has a problem here with the first person singular being used. Lutheran pastors use the first person singular in exactly and precisely this sense. Lutheran pastors say " I, as a called and ordained servant of the word, forgive you all our sins, in the name of the father, son and holy spirit..... I hope this will help and will not fit in the category of denominational comercial:

it might be helpful to think here of the concept of office? for some strange reason christians have no problems with “office” in the secular world and they do in the church.

When a judge acts in his officlal capacity. he usually says “I, by the power invested in me by the people of the state of ____ condemn/pronounce you man and wife.”

no one has a problem here with the first person singular being used. Lutheran pastors use the first person singular in exactly and precisely this sense.

Lutheran pastors say ” I, as a called and ordained servant of the word, forgive you all our sins, in the name of the father, son and holy spirit…..

]]> By: dumb ox http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-513038 dumb ox Wed, 30 Sep 2009 04:04:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-513038 I think there is a difference between restoration and forgiveness. I think forgiveness points back to the cross. Restoration has a more present aspect and allows some discretion and liberty on the part of the church. The best example is the Diocletian controversy, where believers under duress avoided persecution by offering incense to the emperor, buying fake documents stating that they offered the incense when they didn't, surrendering Bible text to persecutors, and selling out other believers to save themselves. Horrible stuff, according to the Donatists. But to their demise, the church chose to reinstate bishops who engaged in such cowardly, treacherous acts. The church exercised its office of the keys to restore the erring bishops. This caused the Donatists to split from the church, who wanted the guilty to be treated much more severely. I think the assurance of pardon should not be confused with restoration. Weird things happen where this occurs, resulting in forcing sinners to jump through hoops before they are brokered God's forgiveness. I think Unrepentant sin is a different case, where church discipline and a restoration process is necessary, following the pattern Paul gave the Corinthian church. I think there is a difference between restoration and forgiveness. I think forgiveness points back to the cross. Restoration has a more present aspect and allows some discretion and liberty on the part of the church. The best example is the Diocletian controversy, where believers under duress avoided persecution by offering incense to the emperor, buying fake documents stating that they offered the incense when they didn’t, surrendering Bible text to persecutors, and selling out other believers to save themselves. Horrible stuff, according to the Donatists. But to their demise, the church chose to reinstate bishops who engaged in such cowardly, treacherous acts. The church exercised its office of the keys to restore the erring bishops. This caused the Donatists to split from the church, who wanted the guilty to be treated much more severely.

I think the assurance of pardon should not be confused with restoration. Weird things happen where this occurs, resulting in forcing sinners to jump through hoops before they are brokered God’s forgiveness. I think Unrepentant sin is a different case, where church discipline and a restoration process is necessary, following the pattern Paul gave the Corinthian church.

]]> By: ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512914 ken Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:51:42 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512914 Amen brother, I'd be hard pressed to say whether Easter or Mother's Day was the biggest holiday in the church I grew up in. At least we had some build up before Easter though. Amen brother,

I’d be hard pressed to say whether Easter or Mother’s Day was the biggest holiday in the church I grew up in. At least we had some build up before Easter though.

]]> By: Fr. Ernesto http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512865 Fr. Ernesto Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:37:50 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512865 Oddly enough, the commonly used Orthodox liturgy does not have an assurance of pardon as part of the Liturgy. There is a confession of sins, but that is a very late addition to the Liturgy. It was only added after the Reformation. The western side of Christendom did add a confession early in their history, but the eastern side never did. So, worship services that have no confession and no pronouncement of forgiveness reflect an order every bit as old as those that do! Oddly enough, the commonly used Orthodox liturgy does not have an assurance of pardon as part of the Liturgy. There is a confession of sins, but that is a very late addition to the Liturgy. It was only added after the Reformation. The western side of Christendom did add a confession early in their history, but the eastern side never did.

So, worship services that have no confession and no pronouncement of forgiveness reflect an order every bit as old as those that do!

]]> By: RonP http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512861 RonP Tue, 29 Sep 2009 07:02:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512861 Good stuff, Nathan. Thanks. Your comments on the ancient Jewish tradition give some added depth to the issue. And it's interesting how things have cycled back around. The ancient Jews observed rituals (liturgies, if you like) that pointed forward prophetically to Christ, who then opened the doorway from prophetic ritual to the living spiritual realities these rituals pointed towards -- and humankind was invited to pass through that doorway and come live in these spiritual realities in the course of everyday life (with God dwelling within us and working through us). I wonder sometimes if the church has in some ways stepped back out of that doorway and abandoned a living, breathing, Spirit-led life in Christ for another set of religious rituals -- this time pointing backwards in time to Christ and the traditions that have developed within the church through the centuries. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with rituals or liturgies that guide us to or help uphold us in a Spirit-led life, such as the one Michael has described in this post. What concerns me is when these rituals serve as substitutes or are mistaken for the Spirit-breathed realities of things like forgiveness, salvation, prayer, or worship as they were meant to be manifested in the day-to-day lives of God's people -- and not merely rationed out by religious professionals in appointed places during certain times of the week. Good stuff, Nathan. Thanks.
Your comments on the ancient Jewish tradition give some added depth to the issue. And it’s interesting how things have cycled back around. The ancient Jews observed rituals (liturgies, if you like) that pointed forward prophetically to Christ, who then opened the doorway from prophetic ritual to the living spiritual realities these rituals pointed towards — and humankind was invited to pass through that doorway and come live in these spiritual realities in the course of everyday life (with God dwelling within us and working through us). I wonder sometimes if the church has in some ways stepped back out of that doorway and abandoned a living, breathing, Spirit-led life in Christ for another set of religious rituals — this time pointing backwards in time to Christ and the traditions that have developed within the church through the centuries.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with rituals or liturgies that guide us to or help uphold us in a Spirit-led life, such as the one Michael has described in this post. What concerns me is when these rituals serve as substitutes or are mistaken for the Spirit-breathed realities of things like forgiveness, salvation, prayer, or worship as they were meant to be manifested in the day-to-day lives of God’s people — and not merely rationed out by religious professionals in appointed places during certain times of the week.

]]> By: Nathan http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512858 Nathan Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:22:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512858 Gentlepersons; This day being Yom Kippur, I feel compelled to add that the absolution given by the clergyman or lay leader in so many traditions is modeled after the blessing pronounced by the high priest in Jewish tradition. After he carries out the tasks of the day sprinkling the blood of the victims in the Holy of Holies, anointing the altar of incense with the blood, releasing the scapegoat and sprinkling the final blood of the day in the Holy of Holies, he pronounces a blessing to the people which assures them that they are forgiven and reconciled to God for another year. This is something which Jesus actually did Himself as our great High Priest, after He was slain, He entered into the veil of death, He presented Himself as the sacrifice to the Father, and returned to rise from death to proclaim, with the supreme authority of one whom God has raised from the dead, forgiveness to anyone who turns to Him with repentance. None of us no matter how well schooled, has this authority on our own. We do have this statement from Jesus (John 20) that "whatsoever sins ye forgive, etc." This statement also has Old Testament roots in that it is similar to God telling the prophets, "if I tell you to warn a person and you don't do it their blood is on your head, but if I tell you to warn a person and you do it their blood is on their own heads" (this is my paraphrase, but I think you know what I am referring to). Because of the similarity and the continuity of scripture old and new I believe that we as people who know Jesus are "Jesus" to others in the same way that Moses was "God" to the Hebrew people whenever he represented what God was saying to them. Therefore pronouncing the forgiveness which Christ freely gives to those who seek Him is a natural part of our ministry as kings and priests (that would be all of those who know Jesus). We quite literally are priests (God's representatives to others) to those who do not know Him, and we fulfill the other priestly function when we intercede (the peoples representative before God) for these people with God. There is no hocus-pocus about it, it is or should be a daily part of our life in Christ. The travesty is that in some traditions this function is reserved for the ordained. I do not see this as a possibility, lots of people in the book of Acts did not have fancy titles, but clearly had ministries (many folks now days would say that Stephen and Philip were "only" deacons). It is time for those of you who know Jesus to realize who you are, (let the redeemed of the Lord say so). Those of you who know Him are the contact point for God to those around you who do not know Him. These liturgies are far less important than obedience to Him. Sit with Him, listen to Him and obey Him. Who knows you may end up giving absolution to someone yourself. I am from the Anglican tradition, but that does not mean that I love and treasure things which I understand to be problems. Nathan Gentlepersons;

This day being Yom Kippur, I feel compelled to add that the absolution given by the clergyman or lay leader in so many traditions is modeled after the blessing pronounced by the high priest in Jewish tradition. After he carries out the tasks of the day sprinkling the blood of the victims in the Holy of Holies, anointing the altar of incense with the blood, releasing the scapegoat and sprinkling the final blood of the day in the Holy of Holies, he pronounces a blessing to the people which assures them that they are forgiven and reconciled to God for another year.

This is something which Jesus actually did Himself as our great High Priest, after He was slain, He entered into the veil of death, He presented Himself as the sacrifice to the Father, and returned to rise from death to proclaim, with the supreme authority of one whom God has raised from the dead, forgiveness to anyone who turns to Him with repentance.

None of us no matter how well schooled, has this authority on our own. We do have this statement from Jesus (John 20) that “whatsoever sins ye forgive, etc.” This statement also has Old Testament roots in that it is similar to God telling the prophets, “if I tell you to warn a person and you don’t do it their blood is on your head, but if I tell you to warn a person and you do it their blood is on their own heads” (this is my paraphrase, but I think you know what I am referring to).
Because of the similarity and the continuity of scripture old and new I believe that we as people who know Jesus are “Jesus” to others in the same way that Moses was “God” to the Hebrew people whenever he represented what God was saying to them.

Therefore pronouncing the forgiveness which Christ freely gives to those who seek Him is a natural part of our ministry as kings and priests (that would be all of those who know Jesus). We quite literally are priests (God’s representatives to others) to those who do not know Him, and we fulfill the other priestly function when we intercede (the peoples representative before God) for these people with God. There is no hocus-pocus about it, it is or should be a daily part of our life in Christ.

The travesty is that in some traditions this function is reserved for the ordained. I do not see this as a possibility, lots of people in the book of Acts did not have fancy titles, but clearly had ministries (many folks now days would say that Stephen and Philip were “only” deacons).

It is time for those of you who know Jesus to realize who you are, (let the redeemed of the Lord say so). Those of you who know Him are the contact point for God to those around you who do not know Him. These liturgies are far less important than obedience to Him. Sit with Him, listen to Him and obey Him.
Who knows you may end up giving absolution to someone yourself.

I am from the Anglican tradition,
but that does not mean that I love and treasure
things which I understand to be problems.

Nathan

]]> By: Christiane http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512857 Christiane Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:08:04 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512857 Michael, thank you for explaining this. Is there any way you can alert new readers about your feeling so that they 'get it' up front? I think that would be a good idea, and save you and them a lot of grief. Michael, thank you for explaining this.
Is there any way you can alert new readers about your feeling so that they ‘get it’ up front?
I think that would be a good idea, and save you and them a lot of grief.

]]> By: mick http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512856 mick Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:06:15 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512856 Having grown up "low church". I've enjoyed visiting other liturgical tradtions that have had confessional and absolution statements. I guess I have never thought I was needing the pastor/priest to say these words in order for it to "take effect" but thought that was occuring in my confession to God and that the words of absolution were a human voice affirming/proclaiming what Christ has already given to us. I like Eugene Peterson's thought that the "priesthood of the believer" was not intended to primarily infer that we could be our own little "private" priests. This is too much of a western individualist mindset, rather, he states that we are all priests, but we are called to be priests for each other. Yes, some are ordained for this in full time service. But it is the Word of God spoken, whether ordained or lay, in corporate or one on one settings that we can continue this ministry for one another - tho this "confess your sins one to another..." is a whole other blog. Having grown up “low church”. I’ve enjoyed visiting other liturgical tradtions that have had confessional and absolution statements. I guess I have never thought I was needing the pastor/priest to say these words in order for it to “take effect” but thought that was occuring in my confession to God and that the words of absolution were a human voice affirming/proclaiming what Christ has already given to us.

I like Eugene Peterson’s thought that the “priesthood of the believer” was not intended to primarily infer that we could be our own little “private” priests. This is too much of a western individualist mindset, rather, he states that we are all priests, but we are called to be priests for each other. Yes, some are ordained for this in full time service. But it is the Word of God spoken, whether ordained or lay, in corporate or one on one settings that we can continue this ministry for one another – tho this “confess your sins one to another…” is a whole other blog.

]]> By: Roger http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liuturgy-12-the-assurance-of-pardon/comment-page-1#comment-512855 Roger Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:55:11 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4609#comment-512855 As a Protestant Evangelical NOS, I am, in recent times, finding myself craving a little bit of ceremony and even a little bit of liturgy. After recently reading "Ancient-Future Time" by the late Robert E. Webber, I have become even more aware of what I've been missing out on in post-episcopy evangelical churches that celebrate secular festivals like Valentines Day, Mothers Day and Fathers Day with vigorous glee, yet shun tradtional Christian calendar observances such as Advent, Epiphany and Lent. I plan to undertake an experimental jaunt into the Christian calendar and lectionary in 2009/10 and blog about my experiences: http://www.faithinterface.com.au/books-im-reading/ancient-future-time-robert-e-webber As a Protestant Evangelical NOS, I am, in recent times, finding myself craving a little bit of ceremony and even a little bit of liturgy.

After recently reading “Ancient-Future Time” by the late Robert E. Webber, I have become even more aware of what I’ve been missing out on in post-episcopy evangelical churches that celebrate secular festivals like Valentines Day, Mothers Day and Fathers Day with vigorous glee, yet shun tradtional Christian calendar observances such as Advent, Epiphany and Lent.

I plan to undertake an experimental jaunt into the Christian calendar and lectionary in 2009/10 and blog about my experiences:

http://www.faithinterface.com.au/books-im-reading/ancient-future-time-robert-e-webber

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