Comments on: The Evangelical Liturgy 3: The Leaders http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 11:44:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-510319 iMonk Tue, 08 Sep 2009 22:53:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-510319 Good leaders facilitate greater participation, not less. I'm not trying to recreate the early church. Nothing special about them. Good leaders facilitate greater participation, not less.

I’m not trying to recreate the early church. Nothing special about them.

]]> By: 2nd man united http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-510306 2nd man united Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:34:51 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-510306 Your thoughts on what Frank Viola and George Barna say in chapter 6 of Pagan Christianity? – “Those who lead worship select the songs that are to be sung. They begin those songs. They decide how those songs are to be sung. And they decide when those songs are over. Those in the audience in no way, shape or form lead the singing. They are led by someone else who is often part of the clerical staff – or who has similar stature. This is in stark contrast to the first-century way. In the early church, worship and singing were in the hands of all of God’s people. The church herself led her own songs. Singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists… A worship leader robs God’s people of a vital function: to select and lead their own singing in the meetings – to have divine worship in their own hands – to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of His church rather than have it led by a human facilitator.” Thanks Your thoughts on what Frank Viola and George Barna say in chapter 6 of Pagan Christianity? –

“Those who lead worship select the songs that are to be sung. They begin those songs. They decide how those songs are to be sung. And they decide when those songs are over. Those in the audience in no way, shape or form lead the singing. They are led by someone else who is often part of the clerical staff – or who has similar stature.

This is in stark contrast to the first-century way. In the early church, worship and singing were in the hands of all of God’s people. The church herself led her own songs. Singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists…

A worship leader robs God’s people of a vital function: to select and lead their own singing in the meetings – to have divine worship in their own hands – to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of His church rather than have it led by a human facilitator.”

Thanks

]]> By: JB http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-509191 JB Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:58:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-509191 This is a wonderful essay and it brought tears to my eyes to read someone else expressing the very thoughts I've had over the years and had so many struggles with in various churches. I couldn't agree more with nearly everything you said. One of the things you mentioned was about leadership in worship being "work." I myself work very hard to think about how I can bring out the text, the sentiment, the Spirit behind a hymn, for example, so that the congregation can more effectively worship while singing it and I also work very hard to make instrumental selections that will blend well with the rest of the service and be meaningful to the congregation while not attempting to entertain. Doing all these things takes time and effort, not to mention hours and hours of practice to be able to play music of the highest quality. Folks involved in music have all levels of skill and I would never look down on someone who I think is doing their best in a genuine, non-self-serving way. But more often than not, poor quality amongst musicians and worship leaders in church is simply due to lack of effort. "It's the heart that counts" or something like that that ends up trumping any further discussion, but it's simply a cover for being lazy. There's only so much one can say in a short paragraph, but I wholeheartedly agree that dedicated effort and hard work is essential. Why should we offer sacrifices that cost us nothing? God (and the congregations we serve) deserves our very best, not whatever we happen to come up with winging it with no preparation or care. This is a wonderful essay and it brought tears to my eyes to read someone else expressing the very thoughts I’ve had over the years and had so many struggles with in various churches. I couldn’t agree more with nearly everything you said. One of the things you mentioned was about leadership in worship being “work.” I myself work very hard to think about how I can bring out the text, the sentiment, the Spirit behind a hymn, for example, so that the congregation can more effectively worship while singing it and I also work very hard to make instrumental selections that will blend well with the rest of the service and be meaningful to the congregation while not attempting to entertain. Doing all these things takes time and effort, not to mention hours and hours of practice to be able to play music of the highest quality. Folks involved in music have all levels of skill and I would never look down on someone who I think is doing their best in a genuine, non-self-serving way. But more often than not, poor quality amongst musicians and worship leaders in church is simply due to lack of effort. “It’s the heart that counts” or something like that that ends up trumping any further discussion, but it’s simply a cover for being lazy. There’s only so much one can say in a short paragraph, but I wholeheartedly agree that dedicated effort and hard work is essential. Why should we offer sacrifices that cost us nothing? God (and the congregations we serve) deserves our very best, not whatever we happen to come up with winging it with no preparation or care.

]]> By: Sensus Divinitatis News http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-508349 Sensus Divinitatis News Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:30:11 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-508349 <strong>The Evangelical Liturgy 3: The Leaders...</strong> This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News.... The Evangelical Liturgy 3: The Leaders…

This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News….

]]> By: Links to the Evangelical Liturgy Series (so Far) | internetmonk.com http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-508154 Links to the Evangelical Liturgy Series (so Far) | internetmonk.com Tue, 25 Aug 2009 20:37:18 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-508154 [...] 1) The Worship Setting 2) The Tools 3) The Leaders 4) The Congregation 5) The Prelude 6. The Call To [...] [...] 1) The Worship Setting 2) The Tools 3) The Leaders 4) The Congregation 5) The Prelude 6. The Call To [...]

]]> By: John http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-507981 John Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:49:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-507981 The Lord must be so happy with the modern church. They are so busy buying and selling and building and marrying. This is exactly what Paul intended. The Lord must be so happy with the modern church. They are so busy buying and selling and building and marrying. This is exactly what Paul intended.

]]> By: Northeasterner http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-507484 Northeasterner Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:28:35 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-507484 While I agree with most of your ideas, I wouldn't use the words "leader" or "leadership" so much. In principle, our only leader is the Lamb upon the throne. In practice, our contemporary society makes quite an idol out of the idea of "leadership," we're even teaching leadership to middle-schoolers! I think it is usually better to speak of followership, of discipleship, of teaching, of feeding. These seem to me much more scriptural terms than leadership; a term very much in vogue in our contemporary culture. While I agree with most of your ideas, I wouldn’t use the words “leader” or “leadership” so much. In principle, our only leader is the Lamb upon the throne. In practice, our contemporary society makes quite an idol out of the idea of “leadership,” we’re even teaching leadership to middle-schoolers!

I think it is usually better to speak of followership, of discipleship, of teaching, of feeding. These seem to me much more scriptural terms than leadership; a term very much in vogue in our contemporary culture.

]]> By: Northeasterner http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-507483 Northeasterner Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:22:26 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-507483 Because the Church is a VERY different enterprise than venture capital. Because the Church is a VERY different enterprise than venture capital.

]]> By: Christiane/L's http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-507469 Christiane/L's Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:39:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-507469 What is the role of the effect of the congregation's perception of the 'chesed' of the evangelical pastor and their perception also of his humility before the Lord, on the effectiveness of this pastor in leading a liturgical service? What is the role of the effect of the congregation’s perception of the
‘chesed’ of the evangelical pastor and their perception also of his humility before the Lord,
on the effectiveness of this pastor in leading a liturgical service?

]]> By: Derek http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-3-the-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-507468 Derek Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:37:43 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4163#comment-507468 Viola and Barna have quoted in "Pagan Christianity" that one of the regrets of burned-out pastors is that their seminary or Bible College training has prepared them for little to nothing else outside of mainstream organized Christianity. Viola and Barna have quoted in “Pagan Christianity” that one of the regrets of burned-out pastors is that their seminary or Bible College training has prepared them for little to nothing else outside of mainstream organized Christianity.

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