Comments on: The Evangelical Liturgy 15: The Creeds http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: pentamom http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514962 pentamom Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:36:55 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514962 PDQ Bach once did the British traffic code in Anglican chant. PDQ Bach once did the British traffic code in Anglican chant.

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514749 Headless Unicorn Guy Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:48:40 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514749 <i>Start charting the locations on a Google map – many of the newest-planted churches are in areas that are 90% or more white, and are 20% or so above the average gross income levels for the country.</i> Reminds me of the story about the church board member who lobbied for going after the Yuppie demographic purely for the "enhanced tithing". And why would these new "Led to Plant a Church" types want to go to a place where they might have to mix with The Wrong Kind of People? They might not be Safe! And their Family might not be Safe! How much of "being Led to Plant a Church" is really Christianese for "I'm getting my family out of the Big Bad City into Paradise"? Start charting the locations on a Google map – many of the newest-planted churches are in areas that are 90% or more white, and are 20% or so above the average gross income levels for the country.

Reminds me of the story about the church board member who lobbied for going after the Yuppie demographic purely for the “enhanced tithing”.

And why would these new “Led to Plant a Church” types want to go to a place where they might have to mix with The Wrong Kind of People? They might not be Safe! And their Family might not be Safe! How much of “being Led to Plant a Church” is really Christianese for “I’m getting my family out of the Big Bad City into Paradise”?

]]> By: Sam Urfer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514739 Sam Urfer Mon, 12 Oct 2009 04:39:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514739 Well, sure, Martha, at some point the succession gets broken, but I'm certainly no expert in where that point is, and as far as I know, many of them still have valid Orders. Well, sure, Martha, at some point the succession gets broken, but I’m certainly no expert in where that point is, and as far as I know, many of them still have valid Orders.

]]> By: Martha http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514737 Martha Mon, 12 Oct 2009 04:05:14 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514737 Well, I'd be willing to tussle over the status of the Old Catholics. Besides, they seem to spend most of their time running around ordaining anyone who can stump up for a set of vestments. If they're saying a group which believes in fairies at the bottom of the garden are in apostolic succession to the Twelve, hear me go "Ah, come on, Ted!" Well, I’d be willing to tussle over the status of the Old Catholics.

Besides, they seem to spend most of their time running around ordaining anyone who can stump up for a set of vestments.

If they’re saying a group which believes in fairies at the bottom of the garden are in apostolic succession to the Twelve, hear me go “Ah, come on, Ted!”

]]> By: Patrick Lynch http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514725 Patrick Lynch Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:33:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514725 There's a huge practical difference between saying one thing about the nature of Christ and another. A cursory read of history shows exactly what happens when little cults of personality develop around able expositors of heretical ideas who are willing to break with the flock. There’s a huge practical difference between saying one thing about the nature of Christ and another.

A cursory read of history shows exactly what happens when little cults of personality develop around able expositors of heretical ideas who are willing to break with the flock.

]]> By: Patrick Lynch http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514724 Patrick Lynch Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:11:33 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514724 The creeds didn't cause schism: they, by and large, were used by a concerned church to address schisms where they already existed by affirming simple historical orthodoxies. Kind of like most of us would admonish KJV-onlyists by stressing the REAL fundamentals of the faith, the creeds were used to build and demonstrate consensus, not abruptly conclude conversations. The creeds didn’t cause schism: they, by and large, were used by a concerned church to address schisms where they already existed by affirming simple historical orthodoxies.

Kind of like most of us would admonish KJV-onlyists by stressing the REAL fundamentals of the faith, the creeds were used to build and demonstrate consensus, not abruptly conclude conversations.

]]> By: Sam Urfer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514723 Sam Urfer Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:09:19 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514723 Yeah, except the disagreements ("Monophysite"/Miaphysite vs. "Diaphysite"/Hypostatic Union, and Nestorianism: "Jesus wasn't God but a man, Christ was God", the former being an extreme reaction to the later error) between the Ortho-Catholics (since at the time the big East-West division was nonexistant) and the Oriental communions have been addressed by various statements of Popes and Patriarchs, and found to be mainly semantic and political in nature. The Nicene Creed (at least the first draft!) is held in common by all, as is the Athanasian Creed (very much so for the Coptic tradition). To reject the Creeds is to reject Christianity, straight up. Course, as you said, I am Catholic, so I guess I would say that. ;) Yeah, except the disagreements (“Monophysite”/Miaphysite vs. “Diaphysite”/Hypostatic Union, and Nestorianism: “Jesus wasn’t God but a man, Christ was God”, the former being an extreme reaction to the later error) between the Ortho-Catholics (since at the time the big East-West division was nonexistant) and the Oriental communions have been addressed by various statements of Popes and Patriarchs, and found to be mainly semantic and political in nature. The Nicene Creed (at least the first draft!) is held in common by all, as is the Athanasian Creed (very much so for the Coptic tradition). To reject the Creeds is to reject Christianity, straight up. Course, as you said, I am Catholic, so I guess I would say that. ;)

]]> By: Sam Urfer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514721 Sam Urfer Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514721 Indeed, one could say the creeds define "Mere Christianity". Indeed, one could say the creeds define “Mere Christianity”.

]]> By: Sam Urfer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514720 Sam Urfer Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:56:29 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514720 The thing is that the Liberal Catholic Church has *valid* Bishops and Sacraments, who are actually ordained properly in Apostolic succession. It has to do with Post-Vatican I schismatics, the "Old Catholics" as they are called. The thing is that the Liberal Catholic Church has *valid* Bishops and Sacraments, who are actually ordained properly in Apostolic succession. It has to do with Post-Vatican I schismatics, the “Old Catholics” as they are called.

]]> By: Steven http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-15-the-creeds/comment-page-1#comment-514711 Steven Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:35:01 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4713#comment-514711 Internet Monk: The Nicene Creed is also an excellent tool for people trying to find authentic Christianity in a world with numerous churches using the name “Christian”. The Creed can become, in the spirit of Vincent of Lerins, a way to rule out all of the following: 1. Liberal churches/denominations that deny the deity of Jesus, the virginity of Mary and the resurrection of Jesus. 2. Churches/denominations that deny the Trinity. 3. Churches/denominations that deny that there is “one Baptism for the remission of sins” With the churches/denominations left, you just have to work out the following issues: 1. The addition of the filioque – big deal or not. 2. The role of apostolic succession – necessary or not. 3. The nature of “Church” – what does it mean to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic? Internet Monk:

The Nicene Creed is also an excellent tool for people trying to find authentic Christianity in a world with numerous churches using the name “Christian”. The Creed can become, in the spirit of Vincent of Lerins, a way to rule out all of the following:

1. Liberal churches/denominations that deny the deity of Jesus, the virginity of Mary and the resurrection of Jesus.

2. Churches/denominations that deny the Trinity.

3. Churches/denominations that deny that there is “one Baptism for the remission of sins”

With the churches/denominations left, you just have to work out the following issues:

1. The addition of the filioque – big deal or not.
2. The role of apostolic succession – necessary or not.
3. The nature of “Church” – what does it mean to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic?

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