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	<title>Comments on: The Evangelical Liturgy 13: The Offering</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-514286</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-514286</guid>
		<description>Two contrasting services--and very contrasting contexts:

1) I was just at a contemporary service in a suburban evangelical congregation.  The music was pretty good, the prayer astonishing in its range and depth, the preaching so-so (I try not to critique other clergy, but my daughter agreed with my assessment).  But the treatment of the offering was surprising.  One of the church leaders got up and said--and this is the entire quote--&quot;It is customary for us to take the offering now.&quot;  Not a single biblical word about the &quot;cheerful giver.&quot;  Not a theological word about our gracious response to God&#039;s even more gracious gift.  Not a practical word about the program of the church.  Just that &quot;It is customary.&quot;  This may have been just the Sunday, I&#039;m a little saddened at the shallowness of the presentation (of a piece, by the way, with the downplaying of communion that Sunday and the actual absence of Scripture reading).  When did a church with a lively spiritual life become afraid of spiritual depth?  When did they act with less depth than my mainline UMC?  (Sigh.)  It made me wish I was back at context number...

2) A worship service in Peki, Volta Region, Ghana, where I think they have the kind of offering I want.  It&#039;s an Evangelical Presbyterian Church (very traditional German origin).  But as the offering comes up, the pastor stands up and talks about the goodness of God.  People are ill from malaria, they are heartbreakingly poor, they work hard and have almost nothing.  But suddenly they are up on their feet, singing and dancing.  And they *dance* their offering forward!  The bills (the Ghanaian equivalent at the time of two mites would have looked like bricks of bills) are in their right hands as they dance and sing a song of joy and wonder--the right hand is the clean one.  There are two plastic buckets up front: one for the men and one for the women.  This is a competition!--and I&#039;m told the women always win!  The second offering (and the third that Sunday) has seven buckets, one for each day of the week, and congregants are to put their offerings into the bucket representing the weekday of their birth.  I take part, of course, but I find that I&#039;m swept up in the enthusiasm, find myself completely across the room from my friends, blessing and being blessed in the Ewe language.  And when the Doxology comes, I am in tears.  Something has shifted inside of me.

I share some of your ambivalence about the offering.  I&#039;ve not done a very good job of sharing this experience with my lovely but very white-bread congregations over the years.  It&#039;s probably all a matter of context.  (The divergent experiences in the comments on this post seem to reveal that.  Maybe it&#039;s good the NT is so vague!)  But I do know this: I&#039;ve given offerings in boxes outside the sanctuary, at a plain ol&#039; Sunday American Protestant offering tray, at a &quot;customary practice&quot; service, and in a plastic bin marked &quot;Yawo&quot; for &quot;Thursday.&quot;  Only in the last have I been surrounded by brothers and sisters filled with joy at the practice.  If I had my pick, I would choose that West African context in a heartbeat.  But I think I&#039;m called here, to rural Nebraska, to share a small drop of the taste of that joy with my brothers and sisters who may not believe such a thing could exist.  Who knows what that drop might water?

===

Only  a slight change of topic: One of my UMC churches *has* started to take a special offering to support mission shares (new UMC-speak for &quot;apportionments&quot;). As part of the practice, we&#039;ve made it a point to pray for this offering before it goes out the door and to the Conference.  We pray for the colleagues that will use it, the people who will benefit, and for Christ&#039;s people whom we may never meet but whom we will touch.  A simple thing, but it fits wonderfully into worship, especially before communion.  My farmers and business folk don&#039;t dance yet--but they have begun to smile, maybe even be enthusiastic,  when we talk about mission shares.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two contrasting services&#8211;and very contrasting contexts:</p>
<p>1) I was just at a contemporary service in a suburban evangelical congregation.  The music was pretty good, the prayer astonishing in its range and depth, the preaching so-so (I try not to critique other clergy, but my daughter agreed with my assessment).  But the treatment of the offering was surprising.  One of the church leaders got up and said&#8211;and this is the entire quote&#8211;&#8221;It is customary for us to take the offering now.&#8221;  Not a single biblical word about the &#8220;cheerful giver.&#8221;  Not a theological word about our gracious response to God&#8217;s even more gracious gift.  Not a practical word about the program of the church.  Just that &#8220;It is customary.&#8221;  This may have been just the Sunday, I&#8217;m a little saddened at the shallowness of the presentation (of a piece, by the way, with the downplaying of communion that Sunday and the actual absence of Scripture reading).  When did a church with a lively spiritual life become afraid of spiritual depth?  When did they act with less depth than my mainline UMC?  (Sigh.)  It made me wish I was back at context number&#8230;</p>
<p>2) A worship service in Peki, Volta Region, Ghana, where I think they have the kind of offering I want.  It&#8217;s an Evangelical Presbyterian Church (very traditional German origin).  But as the offering comes up, the pastor stands up and talks about the goodness of God.  People are ill from malaria, they are heartbreakingly poor, they work hard and have almost nothing.  But suddenly they are up on their feet, singing and dancing.  And they *dance* their offering forward!  The bills (the Ghanaian equivalent at the time of two mites would have looked like bricks of bills) are in their right hands as they dance and sing a song of joy and wonder&#8211;the right hand is the clean one.  There are two plastic buckets up front: one for the men and one for the women.  This is a competition!&#8211;and I&#8217;m told the women always win!  The second offering (and the third that Sunday) has seven buckets, one for each day of the week, and congregants are to put their offerings into the bucket representing the weekday of their birth.  I take part, of course, but I find that I&#8217;m swept up in the enthusiasm, find myself completely across the room from my friends, blessing and being blessed in the Ewe language.  And when the Doxology comes, I am in tears.  Something has shifted inside of me.</p>
<p>I share some of your ambivalence about the offering.  I&#8217;ve not done a very good job of sharing this experience with my lovely but very white-bread congregations over the years.  It&#8217;s probably all a matter of context.  (The divergent experiences in the comments on this post seem to reveal that.  Maybe it&#8217;s good the NT is so vague!)  But I do know this: I&#8217;ve given offerings in boxes outside the sanctuary, at a plain ol&#8217; Sunday American Protestant offering tray, at a &#8220;customary practice&#8221; service, and in a plastic bin marked &#8220;Yawo&#8221; for &#8220;Thursday.&#8221;  Only in the last have I been surrounded by brothers and sisters filled with joy at the practice.  If I had my pick, I would choose that West African context in a heartbeat.  But I think I&#8217;m called here, to rural Nebraska, to share a small drop of the taste of that joy with my brothers and sisters who may not believe such a thing could exist.  Who knows what that drop might water?</p>
<p>===</p>
<p>Only  a slight change of topic: One of my UMC churches *has* started to take a special offering to support mission shares (new UMC-speak for &#8220;apportionments&#8221;). As part of the practice, we&#8217;ve made it a point to pray for this offering before it goes out the door and to the Conference.  We pray for the colleagues that will use it, the people who will benefit, and for Christ&#8217;s people whom we may never meet but whom we will touch.  A simple thing, but it fits wonderfully into worship, especially before communion.  My farmers and business folk don&#8217;t dance yet&#8211;but they have begun to smile, maybe even be enthusiastic,  when we talk about mission shares.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513907</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 05:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513907</guid>
		<description>Plus year to date and the over under amount.

And nearby is attendance at services and SS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plus year to date and the over under amount.</p>
<p>And nearby is attendance at services and SS.</p>
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		<title>By: Bror Erickson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513875</link>
		<dc:creator>Bror Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513875</guid>
		<description>Derek,
If I were to list all the examples of Christian charity I have seen through the church, I wouldn&#039;t be able to stop typing. 
I have however seen men and women sent to a trade school, given jobs etc. I mentioned seminary education because that was a particularly striking one for me when I was at Seminary with about 20 Russians, and 4 or 5 Haitians, all who had their education paid for by very generous people who wanted to see that the congregations in these areas were fed by faithful pastors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek,<br />
If I were to list all the examples of Christian charity I have seen through the church, I wouldn&#8217;t be able to stop typing.<br />
I have however seen men and women sent to a trade school, given jobs etc. I mentioned seminary education because that was a particularly striking one for me when I was at Seminary with about 20 Russians, and 4 or 5 Haitians, all who had their education paid for by very generous people who wanted to see that the congregations in these areas were fed by faithful pastors.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513781</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513781</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious if you know why seminary educations.  Why not a trade for one of the unemployed men in the congregation or neighborhood?  After all, I know plenty of missionaries who are overseas who have never seen ANYONE come to Christ through their mission time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious if you know why seminary educations.  Why not a trade for one of the unemployed men in the congregation or neighborhood?  After all, I know plenty of missionaries who are overseas who have never seen ANYONE come to Christ through their mission time.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513779</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513779</guid>
		<description>Scripture does not say to give weekly.  Try again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scripture does not say to give weekly.  Try again.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513776</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513776</guid>
		<description>Mick, I agree.  In the NT, there are no more tithes.  They are &quot;offerings&quot;.  Not tithes.  And Paul said to give generously, basically, trusting God to tell you what to give and where.  Tithing, whether considering Malachi 3:3 or not, is about keeping score and playing the Slot Machine God.  God doesn&#039;t keep score.  If He&#039;s supposed to be the perfect and loving Father, why do we think we have to earn His blessing?

Further, I&#039;m tired of every evanglical ministry (including churches) telling me to give to my local church first.  I can make $200 go a LOT further in the kingdom by giving 4 single moms an extra few bags of groceries a month than paying for the A/C in the church to run an extra hour in August.

I&#039;ve done several things, in the past year since leaving brick and mortar church, that I felt God leading me to do out of love and generosity.  And I don&#039;t regret a one of them.  

Whether large gift of small (and some have been on either end of the spectrum), I do it because He asks me to.  Not because someone tells me I need to or suffer the lack of a blessing.

True story: the last church we attended had numbered offering envelopes.  You wrote the $ amount on the front and the treasury would write the # and the $ on a sheet to total them up faster - and to keep the books on giving.  The envelopes were used to &quot;gently remind people to give weekly&quot;.  The church was in the red at one point, so I suggested we save a bit of money on printing the 80 boxes of envelopes.  I was shot down by the pastor&#039;s wife who said that the reminder induces guilt and guilt induces giving.

I&#039;m all for ACH payments, BTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mick, I agree.  In the NT, there are no more tithes.  They are &#8220;offerings&#8221;.  Not tithes.  And Paul said to give generously, basically, trusting God to tell you what to give and where.  Tithing, whether considering Malachi 3:3 or not, is about keeping score and playing the Slot Machine God.  God doesn&#8217;t keep score.  If He&#8217;s supposed to be the perfect and loving Father, why do we think we have to earn His blessing?</p>
<p>Further, I&#8217;m tired of every evanglical ministry (including churches) telling me to give to my local church first.  I can make $200 go a LOT further in the kingdom by giving 4 single moms an extra few bags of groceries a month than paying for the A/C in the church to run an extra hour in August.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done several things, in the past year since leaving brick and mortar church, that I felt God leading me to do out of love and generosity.  And I don&#8217;t regret a one of them.  </p>
<p>Whether large gift of small (and some have been on either end of the spectrum), I do it because He asks me to.  Not because someone tells me I need to or suffer the lack of a blessing.</p>
<p>True story: the last church we attended had numbered offering envelopes.  You wrote the $ amount on the front and the treasury would write the # and the $ on a sheet to total them up faster &#8211; and to keep the books on giving.  The envelopes were used to &#8220;gently remind people to give weekly&#8221;.  The church was in the red at one point, so I suggested we save a bit of money on printing the 80 boxes of envelopes.  I was shot down by the pastor&#8217;s wife who said that the reminder induces guilt and guilt induces giving.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m all for ACH payments, BTW.</p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513696</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 05:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513696</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right that most churches in this country are more giving than I gave them credit for in my comment. I apologize.
I guess it&#039;s just this stale little corner of the Bible Belt I grew up in. Around here, we seem to have primarily two kinds of churches: those controlled behind the scenes by a small circle of first-class members, who keep the pastor on a short leash and use church funds to ensure that they get to worship in comfort and style in seats of honor; and those ruled by annointed pastor-kings, who keep their congregations on a short leash and employ church funds toward their personal vision of moving up from the backwoods to the big time. And the remaining few churches are usually so poor that keeping the lights on and the pastor paid is about all they can manage.
And, no, I&#039;m not mad because I got turned down by some church for a handout. Quite the opposite. Several months ago, I found myself temporarily unemployed and without any savings to fall back on, and, if it weren&#039;t for the compassion and generosity of my church family, I would probably be homeless right now. And I didn&#039;t even have to ask for their help. They just observed my needs and met them.
But, even though I am very thankful to be a part of such a loving and giving group of people, I still think that even we fall very short of the bar set by the teachings and example of Christ and the apostles. I know that I fall miserably short when it comes to putting the needs of others before my own selfish wants and desires -- which means I should probably keep my mouth shut on this issue. But I can&#039;t help but see that the NT writers instructed the early church to focus their finances first and foremost towards caring for those in need. And I can&#039;t help but notice that (for the most part) modern Churchianity seems to regard caring for widows and orphans as what the church should do with whatever money is left over after all the necessary and important business is take care of. Not that we don&#039;t do a great deal to meet needs, both at home and around the world. But imagine what we could do if we all really set love and compassion for people as priority number one in both our church and individual finances. It would transform the planet. 
But, maybe, that&#039;s just a pipe dream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right that most churches in this country are more giving than I gave them credit for in my comment. I apologize.<br />
I guess it&#8217;s just this stale little corner of the Bible Belt I grew up in. Around here, we seem to have primarily two kinds of churches: those controlled behind the scenes by a small circle of first-class members, who keep the pastor on a short leash and use church funds to ensure that they get to worship in comfort and style in seats of honor; and those ruled by annointed pastor-kings, who keep their congregations on a short leash and employ church funds toward their personal vision of moving up from the backwoods to the big time. And the remaining few churches are usually so poor that keeping the lights on and the pastor paid is about all they can manage.<br />
And, no, I&#8217;m not mad because I got turned down by some church for a handout. Quite the opposite. Several months ago, I found myself temporarily unemployed and without any savings to fall back on, and, if it weren&#8217;t for the compassion and generosity of my church family, I would probably be homeless right now. And I didn&#8217;t even have to ask for their help. They just observed my needs and met them.<br />
But, even though I am very thankful to be a part of such a loving and giving group of people, I still think that even we fall very short of the bar set by the teachings and example of Christ and the apostles. I know that I fall miserably short when it comes to putting the needs of others before my own selfish wants and desires &#8212; which means I should probably keep my mouth shut on this issue. But I can&#8217;t help but see that the NT writers instructed the early church to focus their finances first and foremost towards caring for those in need. And I can&#8217;t help but notice that (for the most part) modern Churchianity seems to regard caring for widows and orphans as what the church should do with whatever money is left over after all the necessary and important business is take care of. Not that we don&#8217;t do a great deal to meet needs, both at home and around the world. But imagine what we could do if we all really set love and compassion for people as priority number one in both our church and individual finances. It would transform the planet.<br />
But, maybe, that&#8217;s just a pipe dream.</p>
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		<title>By: Bror Erickson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513581</link>
		<dc:creator>Bror Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 12:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513581</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know RonP where you are coming from. For one I have seen many hand outs given within the church over time. I have seen seminary educations funded for men from overseas. I have seen money pour out of American coffers and go to Christians and non Christians suffering all over the world. I have even seen this done despite the financial mess the church might be in at the time. I have seen millions flood New Orleans in the wake of Katrina. I have seen churches give lots of money to members in need.  What churches do you go to?
But as a pastor who has seen much of this kind of criticism I am tempted to ask: Are you mad that you didn&#039;t get a hand out? Or did the church reject your money after you sold all and tried to leave it at the feet of the pastor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know RonP where you are coming from. For one I have seen many hand outs given within the church over time. I have seen seminary educations funded for men from overseas. I have seen money pour out of American coffers and go to Christians and non Christians suffering all over the world. I have even seen this done despite the financial mess the church might be in at the time. I have seen millions flood New Orleans in the wake of Katrina. I have seen churches give lots of money to members in need.  What churches do you go to?<br />
But as a pastor who has seen much of this kind of criticism I am tempted to ask: Are you mad that you didn&#8217;t get a hand out? Or did the church reject your money after you sold all and tried to leave it at the feet of the pastor?</p>
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		<title>By: Bror Erickson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513577</link>
		<dc:creator>Bror Erickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513577</guid>
		<description>I do believe that in the early church the offering followed &quot;the doors, the doors&quot; which was the signal for the elders/deacons to usher out all visitors and catachumens, who would not be allowed to stay for the service of the sacrament. If they weren&#039;t members of the church, they did not contribute to the church&#039;s offering, which is the responsibility and privilege of the members, not guests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do believe that in the early church the offering followed &#8220;the doors, the doors&#8221; which was the signal for the elders/deacons to usher out all visitors and catachumens, who would not be allowed to stay for the service of the sacrament. If they weren&#8217;t members of the church, they did not contribute to the church&#8217;s offering, which is the responsibility and privilege of the members, not guests.</p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-evangelical-liturgy-13-the-offering/comment-page-1#comment-513574</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 08:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4644#comment-513574</guid>
		<description>I kind of like the way that the church in Jerusalem gave their offerings in the fourth chaper of Acts. The wealthier members sold pieces of property and then laid the money at the feet of the apostles -- who then distributed it all back out to the people according to individual needs. 
Funny how you don&#039;t find many churches that still follow that scriptural precedent for giving within the church -- not here in America, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I kind of like the way that the church in Jerusalem gave their offerings in the fourth chaper of Acts. The wealthier members sold pieces of property and then laid the money at the feet of the apostles &#8212; who then distributed it all back out to the people according to individual needs.<br />
Funny how you don&#8217;t find many churches that still follow that scriptural precedent for giving within the church &#8212; not here in America, anyway.</p>
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