Comments on: The Empty Shelf in the Southern Baptist Bookstore http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:47:17 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: fuck me http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-365083 fuck me Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:31:14 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-365083 frn6j8o? I want to have sex with you abn you cousins........................ .......................................... letys talk. frn6j8o? I want to have sex with you abn you cousins…………………… …………………………………… letys talk.

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-216696 Dr. James Willingham Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:12:04 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-216696 Sir: You are quite right. A storm is coming and the present Calvinism (the best term is Sovereign Grace as there were people in England, e.g., dying for predestination in the first 17 yrs. of the 1500s & Calvin was even converted until 1525-29 or so it is said)could be the ground swell of a coming tsunami/hurricane, that is, THE THIRD GREAT AWAKENING. Sovereign grace came to North Carolina in 1755 when two ministers from the Phila. Assn. persuaded some General Baptists to become Regular Baptists (that means the General Baptists gave up General Atonement and accepted Particular Redemption - Christ died only for the elect) & 46 years later (1801) the very same group baptized 872 converts. Also arriving in 1755 were Shubal Stearn, Daniel Marshall, & John Gano, all committed Sovereign Grace Believers. In 1801 on of the Sandy Creek churches had 500 professions of faith on one Sunday Morning. A GREAT AWAKENING REQUIRES A SOVEREIGN GOD WHO DECREES SUCH EVENT & WHO THEN IMPLEMENTS IT BY MANIFESTING HIMSELF IN CONJUNCTION WITH HIS TRUTH PREACHED. Every doctrine of the TULIP outline, along with Predestination and Reprobation are intense, compelling invitations to trust the Lord Jesus Christ & be saved. SUCH TEACHINGS ARE THE MOST LIBERAL & RADICAL OF ALL DOCTRINES, MOVING BELIEVERS IN THEM TO LIVE GODLY CHRISTIAN LIVES OUT OF NO OTHER MOTIVE THAN GRATITUDE TO GOD FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF TRYING TO DO IT. My ordaining pastor would tell people from the pulpit that he was a supralapsarian, a hyper-calvinist. He was also a soul winner (he preached a revival at on rural church in Georgia & had 100 conversions), pastored a number of a leading churches, including the FBC of Hialeah, Fla., was the founder & first president of the American Race Track Chaplaincy, had many preach boys in the ministry, and was the legally required preacher for Dr.R.G. Lee's funeral. D. Lee had five preachers for his funeral, but Dr. Ernest R. Campbell use to laugh & say, "I was the only one that was legal." Why? Because Dr. Lee put it in his last will & testament that Dr. Ernest Ray Campbell was to preach it. Nothing is like it seems. AFTER ALL, LUTHER RICE, THE FATHER OF SOUTHERN BAPTIST MISSIONS, STATED THAT PREDESTINATION IS IN TH BIBLE AND YOU HAD BETTER PREACH IT. He also chaired the committee that drew up the Sandy Creek Confession of 1816 which states that man is utterly impotent of his own free will & ability to save himself. On that committee was Basil Manley, Sr., who would suggest the founding of Southern Seminary, baptize the mother of JP Boyce, lay his hand on Boyce's head when the latter was but a child & say he would be a preacher. Manley would serve as the first president of the board of trustees, his son would draw up the abstract of principles (which is surely linked in its sovereign grace views to Sandy Creek's Confession as well as the Philadelphia Confession of 1742. More could be said about how liberal & radical the whole thing, but the truth is hard to swallow in one lump. It often has to be spoon fed, a bit at a time. STILL IT IS THE ONLY TRULY INTENSELY EVANGELISTIC & MISSIONARY THEOLOGY THAT IS ALSO TRULY BIBLICAL. That it should produce such liberty, politically, etc., is a dream beyond imagination. AS THE OLD SAYING GOES. "You ain't seen nutin yet." Sir: You are quite right. A storm is coming and the present Calvinism (the best term is Sovereign Grace as there were people in England, e.g., dying for predestination in the first 17 yrs. of the 1500s & Calvin was even converted until 1525-29 or so it is said)could be the ground swell of a coming tsunami/hurricane, that is, THE THIRD GREAT AWAKENING. Sovereign grace came to North Carolina in 1755 when two ministers from the Phila. Assn. persuaded some General Baptists to become Regular Baptists (that means the General Baptists gave up General Atonement and accepted Particular Redemption – Christ died only for the elect) & 46 years later (1801) the very same group baptized 872 converts. Also arriving in 1755 were Shubal Stearn, Daniel Marshall, & John Gano, all committed Sovereign Grace Believers. In 1801 on of the Sandy Creek churches had 500 professions of faith on one Sunday Morning. A GREAT AWAKENING REQUIRES A SOVEREIGN GOD WHO DECREES SUCH EVENT & WHO THEN IMPLEMENTS IT BY MANIFESTING HIMSELF IN CONJUNCTION WITH HIS TRUTH PREACHED. Every doctrine of the TULIP outline, along with Predestination and Reprobation are intense, compelling invitations to trust the Lord Jesus Christ & be saved. SUCH TEACHINGS ARE THE MOST LIBERAL & RADICAL OF ALL DOCTRINES, MOVING BELIEVERS IN THEM TO LIVE GODLY CHRISTIAN LIVES OUT OF NO OTHER MOTIVE THAN GRATITUDE TO GOD FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF TRYING TO DO IT.
My ordaining pastor would tell people from the pulpit that he was a supralapsarian, a hyper-calvinist. He was also a soul winner (he preached a revival at on rural church in Georgia & had 100 conversions), pastored a number of a leading churches, including the FBC of Hialeah, Fla., was the founder & first president of the American Race Track Chaplaincy, had many preach boys in the ministry, and was the legally required preacher for Dr.R.G. Lee’s funeral. D. Lee had five preachers for his funeral, but Dr. Ernest R. Campbell use to laugh & say, “I was the only one that was legal.” Why? Because Dr. Lee put it in his last will & testament that Dr. Ernest Ray Campbell was to preach it.
Nothing is like it seems. AFTER ALL, LUTHER RICE, THE FATHER OF SOUTHERN BAPTIST MISSIONS, STATED THAT PREDESTINATION IS IN TH BIBLE AND YOU HAD BETTER PREACH IT. He also chaired the committee that drew up the Sandy Creek Confession of 1816 which states that man is utterly impotent of his own free will & ability to save himself. On that committee was Basil Manley, Sr., who would suggest the founding of Southern Seminary, baptize the mother of JP Boyce, lay his hand on Boyce’s head when the latter was but a child & say he would be a preacher. Manley would serve as the first president of the board of trustees, his son would draw up the abstract of principles (which is surely linked in its sovereign grace views to Sandy Creek’s Confession as well as the Philadelphia Confession of 1742.
More could be said about how liberal & radical the whole thing, but the truth is hard to swallow in one lump. It often has to be spoon fed, a bit at a time. STILL IT IS THE ONLY TRULY INTENSELY EVANGELISTIC & MISSIONARY THEOLOGY THAT IS ALSO TRULY BIBLICAL. That it should produce such liberty, politically, etc., is a dream beyond imagination. AS THE OLD SAYING GOES. “You ain’t seen nutin yet.”

]]> By: T http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-214501 T Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:23:31 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-214501 Your insights are interesting. Publishing is consumer driven, period. The average southern baptist church goer only cares about what how to become a Christian, how to become more like Christ, how to simply share the Gospel, and how to glorify God with there mind, body, soul, & spirit. The common southern baptist will delegate apologetics to the prophets, priests, and atheist killers in our seminaries, websites, and weekly interdenominational coffee clutches. Honestly, most folks are grappling with "in the world, but not of the world". They are not concerned with the intellectual discourse. Autonomy wins the day. If some preacher brings some intellectual bent to the pulpit that doesn't jive with the culture of that church, one of two things happen: 1)They drive the pastor off. 2)They bedrock of the church leaves and the church is in left in shambles. I leave you all to your ruminations. I on the other hand must get back to recovering from minister burnout. Your insights are interesting.
Publishing is consumer driven, period.
The average southern baptist church goer only cares about what how to become a Christian, how to become more like Christ, how to simply share the Gospel, and how to glorify God with there mind, body, soul, & spirit. The common southern baptist will delegate apologetics to the prophets, priests, and atheist killers in our seminaries, websites, and weekly interdenominational coffee clutches.
Honestly, most folks are grappling with “in the world, but not of the world”. They are not concerned with the intellectual discourse.
Autonomy wins the day. If some preacher brings some intellectual bent to the pulpit that doesn’t jive with the culture of that church, one of two things happen:
1)They drive the pastor off.
2)They bedrock of the church leaves and the church is in left in shambles.

I leave you all to your ruminations.
I on the other hand must get back to recovering from minister burnout.

]]> By: Stefan http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204676 Stefan Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:07:32 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204676 A couple of days late and a dollar short, but here's my two-cents' worth: Boyce, Broadus, Carey, Andrew Fuller, and in the modern day Nettles and their ilk...there's no dearth of Baptist writers, methinks; just a general unwillingness to republish, teach, or study the older guys' stuff? 'Tis a shame. I'm not a Southern Baptist, but I am a baptized believer in a credobaptist church. The impression I get from someone who recently visited SBTS is that the students there are not arid "Truly Reformed" how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin types, but evangelical and zealous for the Lord. They'll be a blessing to whichever churches call them. A couple of days late and a dollar short, but here’s my two-cents’ worth:

Boyce, Broadus, Carey, Andrew Fuller, and in the modern day Nettles and their ilk…there’s no dearth of Baptist writers, methinks; just a general unwillingness to republish, teach, or study the older guys’ stuff? ‘Tis a shame.

I’m not a Southern Baptist, but I am a baptized believer in a credobaptist church. The impression I get from someone who recently visited SBTS is that the students there are not arid “Truly Reformed” how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin types, but evangelical and zealous for the Lord. They’ll be a blessing to whichever churches call them.

]]> By: Anna A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204087 Anna A Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:58:07 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204087 Could part of the reason that Southern Baptists are having a hard time doing theology is because they are not taught theology to the appropriate depth? Years ago, while I was church hunting (again), I spent a semester taking systematic theology at a seminary (not Baptist, but the type escapes me now.) I compared the text to an older one that I had bought. The newer one was much shallower in almost every way. Could part of the reason that Southern Baptists are having a hard time doing theology is because they are not taught theology to the appropriate depth?

Years ago, while I was church hunting (again), I spent a semester taking systematic theology at a seminary (not Baptist, but the type escapes me now.) I compared the text to an older one that I had bought. The newer one was much shallower in almost every way.

]]> By: Jimmy Hedrick http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204069 Jimmy Hedrick Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:19:20 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204069 I am a 53 year old SBC pastor who is leading a courtship between two local independent SB churches. Yes it may be that God would have a reformed and a non-reformed local church become one in a midwestern state near you. God does work against the denominational dispensational grains.I too am tired of the bitterness of the old school fundamentalist/pietist SBC leadership who could not control the theological wave of Biblical sufficiency that rose out of their control and is therefore creating many obstacles for the young and gifted in our midst. I have heard and seen so many power/play episodes in church-denominational life that I could write a novel on Church Depravity. Maybe Lifeway would publish it under Mitford historical theological fiction. Anyway I just wanted yall to know that God is alive and His Son is (re)building His church in unprecedented sovereign Holy Spirit ways. Let's all keep praying for and loving on one another. Micheal do post evangelicals like yourself still give the hug of fellowship to evangelicals who have not even gotten to the post(as in horse Ky horse race yet) Someday on a future pilgrimage to Louisville to see my fam I want to drive down the holler and see where the 21st century Thomas Merton of that old Landmark/dispensational /SBC culture sways in the Spirit. I am a 53 year old SBC pastor who is leading a courtship between two local independent SB churches. Yes it may be that God would have a reformed and a non-reformed local church become one in a midwestern state near you. God does work against the denominational dispensational grains.I too am tired of the bitterness of the old school fundamentalist/pietist SBC leadership who could not control the theological wave of Biblical sufficiency that rose out of their control and is therefore creating many obstacles for the young and gifted in our midst. I have heard and seen so many power/play episodes in church-denominational life that I could write a novel on Church Depravity. Maybe Lifeway would publish it under Mitford historical theological fiction. Anyway I just wanted yall to know that God is alive and His Son is (re)building His church in unprecedented sovereign Holy Spirit ways. Let’s all keep praying for and loving on one another. Micheal do post evangelicals like yourself still give the hug of fellowship to evangelicals who have not even gotten to the post(as in horse Ky horse race yet) Someday on a future pilgrimage to Louisville to see my fam I want to drive down the holler and see where the 21st century Thomas Merton of that old Landmark/dispensational /SBC culture sways in the Spirit.

]]> By: Frank Turk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204057 Frank Turk Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:36:36 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204057 FWIW, Donald Whitney is published by NavPress & Moody. Think about <i>that</i>. FWIW, Donald Whitney is published by NavPress & Moody. Think about that.

]]> By: Jeff Park http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204056 Jeff Park Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:17:48 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204056 I decided to post my reply on my own blog and simply link to the reasons I think the SBC simply needs to have a meaningful Theology if it expects to produce Theologians. http://www.freewebs.com/lubunkerman/index.htm I decided to post my reply on my own blog and simply link to the reasons I think the SBC simply needs to have a meaningful Theology if it expects to produce Theologians.
http://www.freewebs.com/lubunkerman/index.htm

]]> By: blackhaw http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204039 blackhaw Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:14:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204039 "LifeWay sucks." First pretty much all Christian bookstores suck. So on that end it is just one more crappy Christian bookstore. Just like most Christian music and Christian radio stations suck. And I live in a city in which one of the most popular, if not the most popular, christian music station is. Second Lifeway publishing does suck. No argument here at all. But I read mostly Patristic stuff. And as Dr. Bingham has said If you think you are studying Patristics at an Evangelical institution, then think again. So I do not expect much from Lifeway. Third Lifeway's Sunday school material is pretty good compared to others. I am not thrilled by much SS material. Lifeway though gives me some things that are useful. I have been in churches that have used others and have not opened them after a quick glance. Overall I think your assestment is correct. But it is not just a problem with Lifeway and the SBC but with all of Evangelicalism. “LifeWay sucks.”

First pretty much all Christian bookstores suck. So on that end it is just one more crappy Christian bookstore. Just like most Christian music and Christian radio stations suck. And I live in a city in which one of the most popular, if not the most popular, christian music station is.

Second Lifeway publishing does suck. No argument here at all. But I read mostly Patristic stuff. And as Dr. Bingham has said If you think you are studying Patristics at an Evangelical institution, then think again. So I do not expect much from Lifeway.

Third Lifeway’s Sunday school material is pretty good compared to others. I am not thrilled by much SS material. Lifeway though gives me some things that are useful. I have been in churches that have used others and have not opened them after a quick glance.

Overall I think your assestment is correct. But it is not just a problem with Lifeway and the SBC but with all of Evangelicalism.

]]> By: blackhaw http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore/comment-page-1#comment-204033 blackhaw Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:00:36 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-empty-shelf-in-the-southern-baptist-bookstore#comment-204033 Some of this just reflects what is going on in Christianity as a whole. Denominational ties are becoming less and less important. With churches like Saddleback and Willowcreek becoming one phase of the new way. Another phase is conservative churches across denominational and somewhat strange theological boundries (i.e. The Anglo-Catholic and conservative reformed Anglicans are working together against a very liberal ECUSA) are working together. Many churches see bigger fish to fry compared to the differences between Anglican and Baptist or Presbyterian and Lutheran. So I see it more and more common for ministers and/or churches to be stepping out of just their denomination and into an Evangelical culture at large. And even beyond Evangelicalism into a "Conservative Christian" culture. Many Gen Xers, like myself, are fed up with much of the denominational bickering and the fact that conservative Christians seem to fight more than work together. I do not see myself as tied to the SBC per se. I could see myself happy in more than one other denomination. Actually in many ways I am unhappy with the SBC (reading the church fathers does that to you)but like a very popular and brillant professor (who happens to be Baptist) I will probably stay because that is where God dropped me. And it is better for me to stay and reform the SBC than to leave and have less impact somewhere else. I am not saying that I am such a great guy but some of my views are different than a typical SBCer but would be very typical of other denominations. So I can influence the SBC but not so much the other denomination. Although I am thinking about joining another denomination where I would be very different. But I regress. Some of this just reflects what is going on in Christianity as a whole. Denominational ties are becoming less and less important. With churches like Saddleback and Willowcreek becoming one phase of the new way. Another phase is conservative churches across denominational and somewhat strange theological boundries (i.e. The Anglo-Catholic and conservative reformed Anglicans are working together against a very liberal ECUSA) are working together. Many churches see bigger fish to fry compared to the differences between Anglican and Baptist or Presbyterian and Lutheran.

So I see it more and more common for ministers and/or churches to be stepping out of just their denomination and into an Evangelical culture at large. And even beyond Evangelicalism into a “Conservative Christian” culture. Many Gen Xers, like myself, are fed up with much of the denominational bickering and the fact that conservative Christians seem to fight more than work together.

I do not see myself as tied to the SBC per se. I could see myself happy in more than one other denomination. Actually in many ways I am unhappy with the SBC (reading the church fathers does that to you)but like a very popular and brillant professor (who happens to be Baptist) I will probably stay because that is where God dropped me. And it is better for me to stay and reform the SBC than to leave and have less impact somewhere else. I am not saying that I am such a great guy but some of my views are different than a typical SBCer but would be very typical of other denominations. So I can influence the SBC but not so much the other denomination. Although I am thinking about joining another denomination where I would be very different. But I regress.

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