Comments on: The Devil’s Sermon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:14:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Traveler http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-508020 Traveler Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:20:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-508020 Something caught my eye in this sermon. "Christ wants to bring the wandering sheep home." This is not clear gospel, for if Christ or God 'want' to do something, what is withholding? Is not God's will done? Both Law and Gospel must be preached clearly, each in its own office, for not all hearers are cognizant of their sinfulness. "By the law is the knowledge of sin...I had not known lust except the law said, Thou shalt not covet." The purpose of the law is to reveal that not only the putting of our hand to sin is condemning, but rather the wrong desires within, whether or not acted upon, are condemning. Jesus said many things proceed out of the heart, including evil thoughts and said, "These are the things which defile a man." The law is a hard word, for God said, "Is not my word like a hammer which breaketh the rock in pieces?" It can only reveal sin and the resulting eternal death due us, and leave us there under the judgment of God. The law offers no hope or remedy, but shuts Heaven against the sinner. The Gospel, on the other hand, reveals not what God wants to do, but what He has in fact done for us, the condemned sinner, through His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus does not only 'want' to gather the lost sheep, but has in fact come to "Seek and to save that which was lost". He has in fact accomplished His mission. Jesus has sought the sinner, In a dark and cloudy day, by a bloody path which leads from Gethsemane unto the Cross of Calvary. He joyfully endured the eternal judgment which was rightfully ours, and in doing so has brought us forgiveness of all sins. His shed blood cleans us every whit, and with His stripes we are healed. It is not that He 'wants' to clean us, and 'wants' to heal us, but that we 'are', even now, cleansed and healed by faith in this gospel. What kind of sheep do we find in the fold of Jesus? Ez 34 describes them as, "Diseased, sick, broken, driven away, and lost." Yet of such Jesus says, "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." This is the gospel, which closes the gate of hell and opens the gate of heaven unto the sinner. It is not about what God 'wants' to do, but it is all about what He will do, has done, and has given unto us for the sake of His Son. We pray, "Thy will be done", for God's will is accomplished and is not left wanting. Something caught my eye in this sermon. “Christ wants to bring the wandering sheep home.”
This is not clear gospel, for if Christ or God ‘want’ to do something, what is withholding? Is not God’s will done?

Both Law and Gospel must be preached clearly, each in its own office, for not all hearers are cognizant of their sinfulness. “By the law is the knowledge of sin…I had not known lust except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.” The purpose of the law is to reveal that not only the putting of our hand to sin is condemning, but rather the wrong desires within, whether or not acted upon, are condemning. Jesus said many things proceed out of the heart, including evil thoughts and said, “These are the things which defile a man.” The law is a hard word, for God said, “Is not my word like a hammer which breaketh the rock in pieces?” It can only reveal sin and the resulting eternal death due us, and leave us there under the judgment of God. The law offers no hope or remedy, but shuts Heaven against the sinner.

The Gospel, on the other hand, reveals not what God wants to do, but what He has in fact done for us, the condemned sinner, through His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus does not only ‘want’ to gather the lost sheep, but has in fact come to “Seek and to save that which was lost”. He has in fact accomplished His mission. Jesus has sought the sinner, In a dark and cloudy day, by a bloody path which leads from Gethsemane unto the Cross of Calvary. He joyfully endured the eternal judgment which was rightfully ours, and in doing so has brought us forgiveness of all sins. His shed blood cleans us every whit, and with His stripes we are healed. It is not that He ‘wants’ to clean us, and ‘wants’ to heal us, but that we ‘are’, even now, cleansed and healed by faith in this gospel.

What kind of sheep do we find in the fold of Jesus? Ez 34 describes them as, “Diseased, sick, broken, driven away, and lost.” Yet of such Jesus says, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” This is the gospel, which closes the gate of hell and opens the gate of heaven unto the sinner. It is not about what God ‘wants’ to do, but it is all about what He will do, has done, and has given unto us for the sake of His Son. We pray, “Thy will be done”, for God’s will is accomplished and is not left wanting.

]]> By: Roy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-507957 Roy Sat, 22 Aug 2009 19:05:31 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-507957 Thank you for this message. This whole week i've been feeling so down, so much in despair. I felt so utterly in despair about the sins I have committed after I became a Christian. I love the Lord and want to serve Him, but I feel so unworthy. I feel that I won't bear it to stand before Him on Judgement day. But I do not want to stand before Him in fear and shame and trembling. I so desire to stand before Him in joy and peace and happiness! Your message has given me hope. Perhaps the Lord will forgive me and give me mercy, even if I do not deserve His forgiveness. Thank you again. May the Lord bless you, and may the Lord be merciful to me and thousands of others who might be in my situation. Roy Thank you for this message. This whole week i’ve been feeling so down, so much in despair. I felt so utterly in despair about the sins I have committed after I became a Christian. I love the Lord and want to serve Him, but I feel so unworthy. I feel that I won’t bear it to stand before Him on Judgement day. But I do not want to stand before Him in fear and shame and trembling. I so desire to stand before Him in joy and peace and happiness!
Your message has given me hope. Perhaps the Lord will forgive me and give me mercy, even if I do not deserve His forgiveness.
Thank you again.
May the Lord bless you, and may the Lord be merciful to me and thousands of others who might be in my situation.
Roy

]]> By: Surrender « O Felix Culpa! http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-507596 Surrender « O Felix Culpa! Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:22:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-507596 [...] The Internet Monk again. [...] [...] The Internet Monk again. [...]

]]> By: Lance Athanasius http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-507397 Lance Athanasius Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:31:03 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-507397 Amen Paul. Context rules. Scripture is often taken out of context to prove some doctrine that is not even there and the same applies to people. Clearly a pastor who gives a sermon like Jonathon Edwards did (sinners in the hands of an angry God) will be vilified by the purpose driven crowd. I mean isn't the goal of the church to get happy folks packed into the church on Sunday so we can collect the tithes and offerings? The Bigger the better right? The pendulum is always swinging. We hear the complaints that the church is not doing enough. That the people are not sold out to Christ. They are not acting Righteous. And then we complain they are not loving and tolerant enough. That the church needs to be accepting and not judgmental about anything. "I would rather that you be hot or cold." I disagree with RonP below. Most preachers don't do #2. Most sermons don't even have the gospel in them. Most sermons don't mention the cross, the shed blood, the resurrection, or the return of Christ. [Mod edit] Amen Paul. Context rules. Scripture is often taken out of context to prove some doctrine that is not even there and the same applies to people. Clearly a pastor who gives a sermon like Jonathon Edwards did (sinners in the hands of an angry God) will be vilified by the purpose driven crowd. I mean isn’t the goal of the church to get happy folks packed into the church on Sunday so we can collect the tithes and offerings? The Bigger the better right? The pendulum is always swinging. We hear the complaints that the church is not doing enough. That the people are not sold out to Christ. They are not acting Righteous. And then we complain they are not loving and tolerant enough. That the church needs to be accepting and not judgmental about anything. “I would rather that you be hot or cold.” I disagree with RonP below. Most preachers don’t do #2. Most sermons don’t even have the gospel in them. Most sermons don’t mention the cross, the shed blood, the resurrection, or the return of Christ. [Mod edit]

]]> By: RonP http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-507295 RonP Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:58:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-507295 What kind of sermon would Jesus preach if He showed up Sunday morning as the guest speaker at First Church of Whatever? Judging from His teachings, sermons, and conversations in scripture, I would guess that He would: 1. Proclaim what is good and true as good and true (the Kingdom). 2. Identify sin and evil as what they are (without compromises or apologies). 3. Offer forgiveness of sin and evil to any who seek it. 4. Invite anyone who wants to come follow Him in the pursuit of what is good and true. Like you pointed out, imonk, most preachers lay real heavy on number 2 and then slip in some number 3 just before the alter call. But without number 1 and number 4, number two becomes a brutal instrument of condemnation and hopelessness, while number three becomes little more than the preacher offering to stop verbally abusing the congregation (at least until next Sunday) if enough of them cry "uncle" and submit to the alter call. As I see it, Jesus offers good news to repentant sinners and bad news to those who refuse to repent or don't think they need to. I think Satan (and far too many clergymen) are in the business of either delivering bad news when good news is needed or ear candy when bitter herbs are in order. What kind of sermon would Jesus preach if He showed up Sunday morning as the guest speaker at First Church of Whatever? Judging from His teachings, sermons, and conversations in scripture, I would guess that He would:
1. Proclaim what is good and true as good and true (the Kingdom).
2. Identify sin and evil as what they are (without compromises or apologies).
3. Offer forgiveness of sin and evil to any who seek it.
4. Invite anyone who wants to come follow Him in the pursuit of what is good and true.
Like you pointed out, imonk, most preachers lay real heavy on number 2 and then slip in some number 3 just before the alter call. But without number 1 and number 4, number two becomes a brutal instrument of condemnation and hopelessness, while number three becomes little more than the preacher offering to stop verbally abusing the congregation (at least until next Sunday) if enough of them cry “uncle” and submit to the alter call.
As I see it, Jesus offers good news to repentant sinners and bad news to those who refuse to repent or don’t think they need to. I think Satan (and far too many clergymen) are in the business of either delivering bad news when good news is needed or ear candy when bitter herbs are in order.

]]> By: CJ http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-507107 CJ Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:01:12 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-507107 Very Lewis-esque observation, Curtis. Self-centeredness is such a subtle weapon in Satan't arsenal. Very Lewis-esque observation, Curtis. Self-centeredness is such a subtle weapon in Satan’t arsenal.

]]> By: Paul D http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-506962 Paul D Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:51:20 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-506962 Hey Guys---absolutely fascinating discussion. Thanks! One thing: Check out more on P. Washer. he's so far removed from hell fire and brimstone and the caricature of him above is way off base. I happen to have met him and he's preached in our church and I can say he's nothing like the manipulative, flesh focused condemner he seems to be painted as above. I'll assume the reference to the #1 YT video is the sermon to the SBC youth. Don't forget the context there. He was preaching to a very specific audience and was trying to shake them up and help them realize that all their cute little mission trips, ice cream eating contests and baseball game outings with the youth group don't assure them of anything salvific. He then went on to present the Gospel clearly and call them to repentance. I wholeheartedly agree that this could not be the regular diet for a local church, but he only recently has become a local church Pastor after having been a traveling evangelist/speaker for years. Just wanted to add some context, that's all. Not trying to say he's perfect, just round out what looks to be an unbalanced criticism of him above. iMonk---thank you for this blog, it's fantastic. I heard about you on the Paul Edward's program out of Detroit. Praise the Lord! Hey Guys—absolutely fascinating discussion. Thanks! One thing: Check out more on P. Washer. he’s so far removed from hell fire and brimstone and the caricature of him above is way off base. I happen to have met him and he’s preached in our church and I can say he’s nothing like the manipulative, flesh focused condemner he seems to be painted as above. I’ll assume the reference to the #1 YT video is the sermon to the SBC youth. Don’t forget the context there. He was preaching to a very specific audience and was trying to shake them up and help them realize that all their cute little mission trips, ice cream eating contests and baseball game outings with the youth group don’t assure them of anything salvific. He then went on to present the Gospel clearly and call them to repentance. I wholeheartedly agree that this could not be the regular diet for a local church, but he only recently has become a local church Pastor after having been a traveling evangelist/speaker for years. Just wanted to add some context, that’s all. Not trying to say he’s perfect, just round out what looks to be an unbalanced criticism of him above.

iMonk—thank you for this blog, it’s fantastic. I heard about you on the Paul Edward’s program out of Detroit. Praise the Lord!

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-1#comment-506896 Headless Unicorn Guy Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:21:42 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-506896 "WHAT YOU SEE... IS WHAT YOU GET!" “WHAT YOU SEE… IS WHAT YOU GET!”

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-1#comment-506895 Headless Unicorn Guy Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:20:20 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-506895 Still better than that one flake "Spiritual Warfare" demand to start VOMITING up the Demons... Still better than that one flake “Spiritual Warfare” demand to start VOMITING up the Demons…

]]> By: Clay http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-devils-sermon/comment-page-2#comment-506872 Clay Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:37:26 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4082#comment-506872 The danger of this kind of teaching is that it results in people giving up on their relationship with Christ. Ultimately, the gospel message is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross and defeat of death has cancelled our sin and justified us before God, which allows us to have fellowship with Him. A focus on the law without a gospel application leaves the believer thinking they have to clean themselves up before they can go to God in prayer and worship. The believer turns inward, attempting to improve themselves so that they can stand clean before God, not realizing that 1) it is the blood of Christ only that allows them to stand clean before God, and 2) it is only through an actual relationship with God that any moral progress can be made in the first place. It turns into a cycle of trying to pursue a relationship with God, failing to live up to His standards, feeling guilty, and giving up on the relationship b/c we're not worthy. The cycle eventually ends with the believer giving up on the relationship and either going through religious motions to continue the appearance of an active spiritual life, or giving up on religion altogether. At least this was how it all played out in my life until I came to a complete undersanding of the gospel, beyond just that it "saved me" when I was 11 years old. The gospel allows me to stand righteous before God regardless of the sins in which I am entwined. It is up to Him to make me a better, more obedient, more faithful, more repentant person. The danger of this kind of teaching is that it results in people giving up on their relationship with Christ. Ultimately, the gospel message is that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and defeat of death has cancelled our sin and justified us before God, which allows us to have fellowship with Him. A focus on the law without a gospel application leaves the believer thinking they have to clean themselves up before they can go to God in prayer and worship. The believer turns inward, attempting to improve themselves so that they can stand clean before God, not realizing that 1) it is the blood of Christ only that allows them to stand clean before God, and 2) it is only through an actual relationship with God that any moral progress can be made in the first place. It turns into a cycle of trying to pursue a relationship with God, failing to live up to His standards, feeling guilty, and giving up on the relationship b/c we’re not worthy. The cycle eventually ends with the believer giving up on the relationship and either going through religious motions to continue the appearance of an active spiritual life, or giving up on religion altogether. At least this was how it all played out in my life until I came to a complete undersanding of the gospel, beyond just that it “saved me” when I was 11 years old. The gospel allows me to stand righteous before God regardless of the sins in which I am entwined. It is up to Him to make me a better, more obedient, more faithful, more repentant person.

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