The Coming Evangelical Collapse (2): What Will Be Left?
January 28, 2009 by iMonk
2. What will be left after the evangelical collapse?
a. An evangelicalism far from its historical and doctrinal core. Expect evangelicalism as a whole to look more and more like the pragmatic, therapeutic, church growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. The determination to follow in the methodological steps of numerically successful churches will be greater than ever. The result will be, in the main, a departure from doctrine to more and more emphasis on relevance, motivation and personal success….with the result being churches further compromised and weakened in their ability to pass on the faith.
For some time, we’ve been at a point that the decision to visit a particular evangelical church contained a fairly high risk of not hearing the Biblical Gospel. That experience will be multiplied and expanded in the years to come. Core beliefs will become less and less normative and necessary in evangelicalism.
b. An evangelicalized Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Two of the beneficiaries of the coming evangelical collapse will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been steadily entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more media and publishing efforts aimed at the “conversion” of evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox ways of being Christian.
A result of this trend will be the increasing “evangelicalization” of these churches. This should yield interesting results, particularly in the Orthodox church with its ethnic heritage and with the tensions and diversities in Catholicism that most converts never see during the conversion process. I expect the reviews of the influence of evangelicalism in these communions to be decidedly mixed.
c. A small portion of evangelicalism will continue down the path of theological re-construction and recovery. Whether they be post-evangelicals working for a reinvigoration of evangelicalism along the lines of historic “Mere Christianity,” or theologically assertive young reformed pastors looking toward a second reformation, a small, but active and vocal portion of evangelicalism will work hard to rescue the evangelical movement from its demise by way of theological renewal.
This is an attractive, innovative and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing and leadership development. Nonetheless, I believe the coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches. But I do believe many evangelical churches and schools will benefit from this segment of evangelicalism, and I believe it will contribute far beyond its size to the cause of world missions.
d. I believe the emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision. I expect to continue hearing emerging leaders, seeing emerging conferences and receiving emerging books. I don’t believe this movement, however, is going to have much influence at all within future evangelicalism. What we’ve seen this year with Tony Jones seems to me to be indicative of the direction of the emerging church.
e. Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear; they will exist only as a dying form of church. The Southern Baptist Convention will experience dramatic losses in the numbers of churches in the next 25 years. By 2050, the SBC will have half the number of churches it has today. (Who know how many members it will report.) The SBC will become “exhibit A” for the problems of evangelicalism, with fragmentation appearing everywhere and a loss of coherence on many fronts.
The fundamentalist ghetto has been breaking down in my own lifetime, and I expect this will continue. The “Jerry Falwell-Jerry Vines” type of fundamentalist Baptist will become a museum piece by the middle of the century.
f. Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Within that community, the battle for the future of evangelicalism will be fought by those who must decide whether their tradition will sink into the quicksand of heresy, relativism and confusion, or whether Charismatic-Pentecostalism can experience a reformation and renewal around Biblical authority, responsible leadership and a re-emergence of orthodoxy..
I see signs of life on all those fronts, but the key issue of leadership and the preparation of leaders leaves me with little hope that Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity can put its house in order. The dynamics of leadership within this tradition have conspired to bring the worst kinds of leaders to the forefront.
The stakes in Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity are very high. It has become a worldwide missions phenomenon, and it has become a community carrying the most virulent and destructive heresies and errors in evangelicalism. The next 15-25 years will be crucial for this community. I am hopeful, but not optimistic. I see and hear little from this community’s younger leadership that indicates there is anything close to a real recognition of the problems they face.
g. A hope for all of evangelicalism is a “rescue mission” from the world Christian community. If all of evangelicalism could see the kind of renewal that has happened in conservative Anglicanism through the Anglican Mission in America and other mission efforts, much good would be done. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity? I do not know, but I hope and pray that such an effort happens and succeeds.
At present, most of evangelicalism is not prepared to accept pastors and leadership from outside our culture. Yet there can be little doubt that within our western culture there is very little evidence of an evangelicalism that can diagnose and repair itself.
h. A vast number of parachurch ministries are going to become far less influential, and many will vanish. The same will likely be true from everything from Christian media to publishing. This will throw what remains of evangelicalism back on the local church, and that moves us to my last post, a consideration of whether this collapse is a good or bad thing.
i. I believe that the missionary sending agencies of evangelicalism will survive the coming collapse, but will be greatly weakened by significant decreases in the giving base. It is time for mission strategies among evangelicals to change, and it is long past time for westerners to use their resources to strengthen work within a nation and not to just send Americans to the mission fields.
Next: Is all of this a good or a bad thing?
I keep going back to the words of Jesus when he says he will build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
I agree with the thought that future orthodox Evangelical leadership will probably come from that area of the world that used to be called “3rd world” nations. I also see and sense in Western culture the increasing antagonism(sp) and out right hostility against Evangelicalism specificaly, and Christianity in general.
Some how, and some way, Jesus will continue building his church. “…this I know, for the Bible tells me so..”
Peace…
Unfortunately, the ECUSA has much deeper problems than Gene Robinson. Well before they ordained him, the denomination’s most famous author was another bishop, John Shelby Spong. Among other things Spong denies the resurrection, which means he is completely apostate.
I know from personal experience that there are some good Christians still left in the ECUSA. But much of their leadership and some of their laity are little more than Unitarians with a nice liturgy. That coupled with the fact that they are in a demographic free fall means that they are indeed headed for the trash heap of history. My guess is the PCUSA is next. The ECLA and especially the UMC may yet avoid this fate.
Michael’s right about one thing. If the mainlines weren’t so wobbly on basic orthodox Christianity, they could really clean up on all the disaffected Evangelicals who are sick and tired of the circus in Evangelicalism. As it stands now, the Catholic and Orthodox will almost certainly continue to gain converts from Evangelicalism.
rr
Michael and others here might be interested in downloading the free booklet, “The Failure of American Baptist Culture” here:
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/21ce_47e.htm
rr, yep – Before Spong, there was Bishop Pike. I don’t see Gene Robinson as a polarizing figure here (personally), let alone his appointment as bishop being *the* reason for the split in the Anglican communion. As you’ve said, it’s been coming for a long, long time.
I do think the media has characterized the whole thing as being a battle over homosexuality, though – and I can see where it *might* appear that way to folks who are on the outside looking in.
Evangelicals began coming into Orthodoxy in large number in the late 1980’s. Just recently, my jurisdiction picked up several more churches. It has caused a lot of ferment, and argument, but now, 20 years later, it has been seen to be a positive thing.
But, it has also had its negative side, with ethnics worried about the loss of their heritage, converts with Evangelical egos being convinced that they know better than the people who grew up in it, etc. In other words, there is no perfect system.
On the other hand, I have seen exactly the same type of conflict on the mission field as the “natives” wanted to take over from the missionaries. It is not particularly a failing in Orthodoxy, but a rather well documented common reaction as an immigrant community begins to inculturate.
And, you hit the nail on the head, many Orthodox have Evangelical overtones nowadays. My favorite is the neighboring Greek Orthodox priest who is the son of a priest born in Greece. He is currently leading a Wednesday study using one of Chuck Colson’s books.
Might I argue that maybe, just maybe, God’s plan truly is to make Orthodoxy more Evangelical and to provide an Orthodox Church, that is true to Scripture and the Fathers, for Evangelicals to come into to find safe and reliable haven?
Imonk,
Agreed and I thank you for the reply. Your traceback a few post ago to some answers to “Where or what is the true church” helped me settle some things for myself.
I think the person said that wherever the gospel is being proclaimed and the sacraments being kept faithfully the church is there. Something to that effect.
the question then is what does “faithfully” mean, as a guy with landmark background I’m sure you know how exclusive that can be construed to be
This is a strange question for one baptist to ask another baptist, but do you think we put too much emphasis on credo-baptism.
I mean I am 100 percent convinced it is right and proper, but doesn’t that belief carried to its full logical end mean that all other fellowships that do not practice it are “para-church” and that their ordinations are then not valid, neither their sacaraments.
I’m not saying that is how I feel, but isn’t landmarkism just baptist following their beliefs to the logical end?
Couldn’t there be much fellowship between Presbyterians, Methodist, Baptist, etc. if we could all just agree to disagree on baptism but still recongize each other? Or is credo-baptism too important for any compromise?
Fr. Ernesto,
I enjoy your post. I’ll share a story. A college age son of a local SBC church music minister travelled to Greece to do “mission work.” He came back an Orthodox convert.
I get the draw to Orthodoxy. I really do. It let’s folks get a tie to the ancient traditions and feel they are avoiding the things they see wrong with RC.
I attended the Greek Fest at a local Greek Orthodox church in a metro area close by. I had never even been in an Orthodox church. Since then I have read up some. Not enough. Very impressive.
Regards,
Austin
I’m a Piper guy on Baptism. I’m credo, but if paedo is your position of conscience you can join my church. Of course I don’t have a church
I think the best thing that can happen to the Church is being marginalized. The early church was out on the margins, and they turned the world upside down. It’s the power of the Gospel, not human power or influence.
While the emerging church may disappear, I think many of the good things from this “movement” will influence those who remain to follow Jesus in the hostile-to-Christianity new world.
Geoff — “I think the statement that the Church is in the state God wants it to be in as proposed by Mr. Surf is as valid as saying that God desired the Nazis to invade Poland or establish Dachau or Buchenwald.”
Yes — I agree, God’s will is not being “done on earth as it is in Heaven.” Nor will it be until the Lord returns. What internetelias posted about is the ancient doctrine of the Signified Will and the Will of God’s Good Pleasure. (Google it if you need to.) What God has indicated are His intentions for His Creation (Signified Will), and what He is actually pleased with now are two different things. Yes there is evil in the world and yes people go their own way with their free will (sin). What God has willed is that we cannot escape the consequences of our actions and also that good will come out of evil, not matter what it is, even the Holocaust. Absolutely nothing escapes the Will of God’s Good Pleasure.
Nobody has it right churchwise, nor will anyone get it right. Some individuals get it right in themselves — we Catholics call them the Saints, and we claim to know who some of them are. The Creation will be all made right when the Lord returns in His Glory, and God is very pleased with it being that way (in my opinion.):-)
@Pastor M: I understand that you had difficulties watching more than 2 minutes of Ted Haggard on Oprah (I managed to catch and stay with it to the end). What I took away from the interview – completely aside from the issue whether he was now 100% forthright or not – is that the current crisis of evangelicalism (exemplified here in the downfall of one of its former leaders) and its flashy past may actually be the first step to move away from hypocrisy and selfrighteous finger-pointing towards a more authentic and compassionate understanding of the gospel. I think this was and is still one of the major reasons a lot of people are put off by evangelicals apart from the unholy political alliances of the past.
Gotta agree with DaveD—the purpose of Pentecostalism was to counteract the slide towards cessationism in Protestantism and Catholicism, particularly in missions work. The Holy Spirit didn’t pour out power so that Christians could found denominations. He poured it out so that we would preach Jesus, according to the scriptures, with signs and wonders following.
I like my denomination. I like what they have to say about pentecostalism. But my allegiance is to Jesus alone. And what I see His Holy Spirit doing is support the ministries that proclaim Jesus, and step away from the ministries that perpetuate themselves. That’s why those ministries in a mess. They’re desperately trying to remain relevant, and every once in a while the Spirit saves someone through them, in spite of them—and they think it means they have His approval, when really they’re like God using Ahab to smite Syria. (1Ki 20)
While the organizations will fall apart, the evangelicals within those organizations will migrate, theologies largely intact, to other groups. And, because we’re Christians, they’ll be accepted, embraced, even moved into positions of leadership—sometimes with the intent of restarting their old ministries, sometimes with the understanding that God has new ministries for them to work on.
The nondenom semi-charismatic pomo church in my brother’s town is full of people who used to go to the Assemblies, Baptist, Catholic, Evangelical Free and Reformed churches. These people may be in a new building, with different leaders and a kickin’ rhythm section, but they largely brought their old theologies with them; they’re still Evangelical. Consequently, their newbies class, discipleship groups, and pulpit all teach Evangelicalism. And if that church dissolves, and they and other Christians regroup again, it’ll happen again. And again and again and again.
Their kids, with a few stray heretics, might go off and form a Category #a church, but considering kids today, most of them would rather go nowhere than to a church that doesn’t challenge them.
But yeah—the emergent churches will definitely fold into the mainline churches. Especially after their leaders step down and the novelty of challenging everything wears off. Then, the only people there will be the only people who have the stomach for such chasing after the wind… or the people too skeptical to believe anything, but too stubborn to stop meeting. They’ll fit together great.
I am a “convert” from Pentecostalism to Anglicanism. I think that a likely “new province” may in fact be there to aid these free-floating evangelicals. I am attending a charismatic Episcopal Church, one of the only “orthodox” in the whole diocese, and I am torn about ordination. So I guess we will have to see where it goes.
But don’t underestimate the Anglicans, look at the Church of England and the powerful minds rising there. Archbishop Rowan Williams, N T Wright, Chris Wright, Anthony Thiselton, Alister McGrath, John Polkinghorne and John Milbank among others.
You know, Michael, with all the stories I’ve read about the large numbers of people leaving evangelical churches, I can’t recall a single one telling of their shepherds leaving the ninety-nine to go fetch them back.
“Unfortunately, the ECUSA has much deeper problems than Gene Robinson. Well before they ordained him, the denomination’s most famous author was another bishop, John Shelby Spong. Among other things Spong denies the resurrection, which means he is completely apostate.”
I agree. I’m very very new to an AMiA church. Running from the SBC. My knowledge is very incomplete but as it was explained to us and from what I’ve read elsewhere, Robinson was the media event that made public what had been going on for decades. Basically things like the bible is a good book but not really the inspired word of God, churches being told to find a new priest that didn’t preach so much about Jesus, and so on.
It’s been a long slide, only recently in the media. Of course a 90 second TV report can’t really do justice to the story or even begin to comprehend it so “gay bishop” is the only thing outsiders hear.
“with all the stories I’ve read about the large numbers of people leaving evangelical churches, I can’t recall a single one telling of their shepherds leaving the ninety-nine to go fetch them back.”
Many of us were told basically “HOPE the door hits you on the way out”.
Or the discipline committee shows up to “fix” you so you can come back.
“Or the discipline committee shows up to “fix” you so you can come back.”
Forgive my naivete, but…you’re joking, right? Even I can’t imagine an evangelical church doing such things.
I’d like to offer a little positive outlook.
I definately agree that the SBC is going to shrink unless their is a great outpouring of the Spirit simply due to demographics.
The co-op program and all of those things will be downsized somewhat but I think a great refocusing will come from it.
My denom. does have a lot of problems. However, locally anyway where I live. Even the churches that have left the reservation with their worship styles still do a good job of proclaiming the gospel.
The church I pastor is off on some Wed. nights due (it’s a long standing rural tradition) so I get to visit a lot and most preachers I hear, despite their ignorance of the greater Chrisian traditon (i.e. not knowing what the Apostle’s Creed is) do proclaim faithfully at least the gospel.
I think that baptist churches will survive but in a more regionaly focused, less heirarcal fashion.
We need to do three things.
1. Get past the worship wars and re-discover sound Christian worhship
a. I have added more scripture readings
b. the Lord’s Prayer
c. monthly communion
It has taken a while but you can with patience do it
2. Stop seeing the metodist down the road as a mission field
a. if a people believe in salvation by faith alone then consider them brothers and work together despite peripheral differnces
b. if they do not believe in salvation by faith alone or if they are ignorant of the Gospel then share it in love
3. Stop making big issues out of small things that are extra-biblical or simply not a big deal
a. for example the church where I am at lost a whole generation of people b/c the hardshell pastor 35 years ago wouldn’t stop preaching every Sunday about long hair on men, or men wearing necklaces, or women wearing pants
b. for example, the old Church Covenant that prohibits alchohol consumption, drop it, you can’t prove it, history refutes it, and it is a vestige of the social gospel from the Progressive Era when much of Evangelicalism was feminised
Do these things and I am confident that we can not only survive but thrive
Baptists have much to offer
that may sound Polly Anna but i just wanted to be positive for a minute
rampancy
““Or the discipline committee shows up to “fix” you so you can come back.”
Forgive my naivete, but…you’re joking, right? Even I can’t imagine an evangelical church doing such things.”
There’s a growing movement in the evangelical community that pastors are becoming more like RCC priests. They are right, even when they are wrong. Check out Sovereign Grace churches and the other web sites that talk about “survivors” of this denomination and the other churches that have taken up their leadership methods.
Did you read IM’s recent post about Mars Hill?
Have you heard about the dust up over the large Baptist church in Jacksonville FL?
And on a personal level a good friend of mine, a very dedicated Christian who walks a walk we would all want to emulate was a deacon in my church. He went to the pastors and elders at the request of someone who had basically been done wrong. He was looking for reconciliation and an apology. By the time it was over “he” was being disciplined and shunned for basically sticking his nose in where it doesn’t belong. This is the very simplified story and the rest will have to wait as it’s still unfolding six months later.
These are not the stories of the SBC church I grew up in. But it is what’s happening at more and more places now.
At the institutional level, your analysis is chillingly accurate. But on the “kingdom level” it is unseeing.
The grassroots “movement” did not begin with Claiborn, it just got a face with cool glasses. The Grassroots dynamic exists in most every church and tradition. It is the odd person of people who do not spend their hours hammering church action plans. Or lecturing or chomping pipe stems. Or climbing trellises of leafy ambition. Or blog-crawling.
They live where “faith acts out in love”. They live like they believe their every word and action has the power to renew withered souls, and God’s creation with them. They bake the extra casserole, they babysit the crusty-nosed kid. They bring the ladder over and show the anxious yuppie how to use it without killing himself. They pause with him, and smile, and uncloak the Eternal. They pray and believe.
They know that the Kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. And all the institutions and theologians of Protestantism and Catholicism have ridden pompously on their backs from the beginning.
Yes, the institutions will crumble, they are but clay. But I am not worried. The gospel just loves crumbling empires! Pneuma does not crack or crumble. And we ain’t skeerd.
Thanks for the great piece, iMonk. I’m a fan!
rampancy
there is scriptural justification for church discipline, in fact if you are going to have a regenerate church membership (credo-baptist) then you have to have some sort of discipline or membership means little
it should always be done
a. in love with the goal at restoration
b. in a biblical way Mathew 18 I believe
c. in extreme circumstances
it should never be about personalities
Joe B:>>>>>They live where “faith acts out in love”. They live like they believe their every word and action has the power to renew withered souls, and God’s creation with them. They bake the extra casserole, they babysit the crusty-nosed kid. They bring the ladder over and show the anxious yuppie how to use it without killing himself. They pause with him, and smile, and uncloak the Eternal. They pray and believe.
Whoa. Good description of Christ likeness.
I am troubled by only one thing that seems to be missing in this thread. All of us, myself included, believe in preaching the Gospel. But, there are no posts on doing the Gospel.
Across the South, there are “Baptist” hospitals. The nation has many “Methodist” universities (think Southern Methodist U.). Whenever there is a disaster, somehow the Salvation Army tends to be there before the official agencies arrive. Catholic hospitals and schools abound.
But, where are the recent works of the “new” Evangelicals, or even of the rest of us? Could part of the reason for our supposed suffering be that we are seen as do-nothing windbags by most in the nation? I wonder if our spiritual ancestors, those who founded those hospitals, universities, orphanages, etc. are looking at us and shaking their heads.
Several of those who have commented have spoken of a new something where the Gospel will be finally clearly preached. But, I think that if we do not match our own ancestors in doing the Gospel that our preaching will be just as ignored as it is today.
Fr. Ernesto
“I am troubled by only one thing that seems to be missing in this thread. All of us, myself included, believe in preaching the Gospel. But, there are no posts on doing the Gospel.
But, where are the recent works of the “new” Evangelicals, or even of the rest of us?”
Great insight. We, evangelicals, write checks, turn them over to our pastors to do works for us, then wonder why they think they are above us when we question them.
Fr. Ernesto: Reading all the very real problems with the Church, spiritual establishments, whatever we call the work of Christianity……the ‘doing’ is absent and much ‘talk’ is present. Preaching is a verb. The first ‘preachers/apostles’ lived the sermons. Their lives were the sermons. Christ said, “Follow me.” “Follow” meaning ‘reproduce my actions.’ Think maybe that’s why we have two eye, two ears, two arms, two hands, two legs, two feet……and only one MOUTH? We who are called by His name have failed Him immensely. We are guilty of being ‘hearers’ of the Word rather than ‘doers’ of the Word. I’ve already repented and He is setting before me new paths. Repentance, of course, means new paths from those currently traveled.
I believe that, generally speaking, the responses are overly pessimistic. Christ is Lord of all and he is victor. I believe Islam will fall to Christianity and it won’t be long. Iranians are converting to Jesus Christ in entire families. Amazing things are happening in China and Asia.
The Southern Baptists and the independent Baptists aren’t going anywhere. There are millions of Christians out there in the various churches and that is proof that God still is working in us and through us.
Fr. Ernesto: “But, where are the recent works of the “new” Evangelicals, or even of the rest of us? Could part of the reason for our supposed suffering be that we are seen as do-nothing windbags by most in the nation?”
I’ve been following the theology debates, learning a lot, and feel like I’m learning what the Gospel is not and how it’s been distorted in our church culture. But nagging at the back of my mind for a long time has been your point exactly. I often feel like a do-nothing windbag. “Americans are too busy” is often repeated in the circle’s I run in, and takes the blame for lack of devotion and shallow Christian lives in general.
Imonk, what to do with “Americans are too busy” would be a great topic someday.
“DaveD, I’ve got a stupid question for you – do you think God ALLOWS some people waste away or to chase theological butterflies in strange churches and really guides others out of them?”
I’m not sure I’m entirely clear on the question. If you are asking if I believe God will leave some in error and rescue others? Yes. He leaves millions without His Son, doesn’t he? We can argue over whether they CHOOSE to stay in darkness or if God CHOOSES them for light but that’s for another thread. Sadly, there are some people who would rather have a Todd Bentley than a true move of God. There are people who would rather be a leader in a fallen church then be a servant in a faithful one. There are people who would rather have comfort in this world than in the one to come. It’s sad, but we see it all around us everyday. Does that answer the question you asked or did I misinterpret it?
“I can’t recall a single one telling of their shepherds leaving the ninety-nine to go fetch them back.”
For the most part, you’re right. I think part of that is because we put the “most qualified” into leadership positions usually instead of those who serve the most and are called to these positions. It takes time a prayer to do this and not everyone called to be a pastor is going to be a rockstar preacher…but he’ll love the flock and guide them.
“Or the discipline committee shows up to “fix” you so you can come back.”
You know of an evangelical church that HAS a discipline committee? I think that’s one of the big things lacking in evangelicalism….the willingness to discipline members when they stray from the faith. Of course, the few I do hear about seem more concerned over who you voted for or what style worship you prefer so….
DD
“Sadly, there are some people who would rather have a Todd Bentley than a true move of God.”
The thing is, the Todd Bentley people think they’re EXACTLY where God is moving, and you’d be a fool to disagree with them. After all, they’re elderly.
I confess, I have no understanding of the phrase “true move of God” as it pertains to ministry. I’m unable to see how the appellation “move of God” (and lots of common Christian phrases like it) means anything distinct.
You answered my question, but I’m completely at a loss for how to make use of the answer you gave me.
But, where are the recent works of the “new” Evangelicals, or even of the rest of us? Could part of the reason for our supposed suffering be that we are seen as do-nothing windbags by most in the nation? — Fr Ernesto
I chalk it up to John Nelson Darby and his Pre-Trib Rapture, which became the default End-of-the-World choreography among Evangelicals et al.
When The World Ends Tomorrow (at the latest) and It’s All Gonna Burn, you’re NOT going to leave any sort of legacy into the future. Because you don’t have a future. Not even twenty minutes into the future.
When your only purpose in life is to keep your nose squeaky-clean to pass God’s Litmus Test for The Rapture Fire Escape, you’re not going to achieve great things.
So why are pre-tribbers so into The Culture War and Taking Back America? Their own eschatology says “It’s All Gonna Burn Anyway”, so why bother?
There’s a growing movement in the evangelical community that pastors are becoming more like RCC priests. They are right, even when they are wrong. Check out Sovereign Grace churches and the other web sites that talk about “survivors” of this denomination and the other churches that have taken up their leadership methods. — Ky boy but not now
This is another of the myriad forms of “Clericalism”, the heresy that Only Clergy Really Matter. In this form, The Clergy Is Always Right; you laity just Pray, PAY, and Obey. (I’m RCC, and this form of Clericalism has a long history in the RCC. It appeals to the despot and egotist in any sort of clergy — “I AM GOD’S ANOINTED!” holds for both Borgia Popes and Benny Hinn.)
Its really pretty simple when you look at it:
MATTHEW 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
A thought-provoking post.
Some additional observations not only about what is left over, but what is the shape of the Christians that inherit what is left. What to call them? While you use the term “post-evangelical,” some people have already added some specific baggage to it that makes it problematic. “Remnant” is too sanctimonious and simply won’t do. So I’ve used the term “The Heirs of Evangelicalism.”
Thanks very much for your writing.
Peace.
imonk,
“Short of a hierarchy, you’ll never see authority in Baptist life much beyond the local congregation. And amen to that.”
I add my amen.
Can authority be abused if it is confinded to the local level? Absolutely. I think the benefits and the adherance to a biblical model out-weigh the risks, praticular since a centrality of control can facilitate abuse of power on a larger scale.
centorian,
as a baptist i agree, but my only question is this, absent any authority, how do we as baptist keep heresy out of the flock and out of our larger fellowships?
That’s a good question, austin. I’d lke to hear some more of your thoughts on this. Saying you adhere to the “The Baptist Faith and Message” doesn’t quite cut it, does it. The Conventions do have some teeth when they want to use it as do the local associations. I saw it done more than once. It takes people willing to make a stand.
Calvary Chapel is an affiliation of independent churches. They [that is, we, I'm a former SBC, btw] require even a stricter adherance to common doctrine and straying from that can cause one to forfeit their affiliation. This system is far from perfect, but it is an attempt to maintain doctrinal consistency.
I’m following this series with interest. But I have to admit, it’s fueling my already well-developed sense of cynicism.
But every now and then I get a glimmer of hope. As in in last night when I had the opportunity to hear Tim Keller speak. Gospel centric, missional minded, with an awareness that our church communities must be built on a foundation of knowing just how badly we all need Jesus. He actually applied the Gospel to living our lives in community, what that looks like, and how it should shape us. Sorry if I’m gushing but most people who claim to be Gospel centered don’t go much further than getting saved. Or maybe Jesus is a step on the path to being empowered – if we can manage to surrender ourselves enough.
So is Keller an isolated case? I know he’s done good things in NYC but can what he is doing be found other places as well? Somebody please say “Yes”.
In dutch we have 2 words where you have the word liberal, one is ‘vrijzinnig’ which describes imho a faith that is ripped-off of everything that’s meaningless, like the catholic school where I went to as a child wich is something like “no miracles, no real ressurection, maybe god doesn’t even exist but anyway be nice to eacht other…” And then you have ‘liberaal’, which is usually used more in a political context, meaning something like allowing much personal freedom I guess… Like not having a problem with official gay marriages (which we have in belgium, and I don’t even feel called to have any opinion about them) I do think the EC may be leaning towards liberal christianity in the second sense, but I don’t feel like they’re going down to the dead christianity that I know from belgian nominal catholicism. And I sincerely hope I’m not wrong in that… The liberal catholicism here just bores you to hell, and there’s not much Christ, God, bible or anything left in it…
centorian,
i agree about the local associations, and i think the whole associating/disassociating is really the only tool we have, that with the obvious effort at sound biblical preaching
our local association has recently excluded a congregation over doctrinal differnces
i guess it is the only alternative to some sort of heirarchal sp? system that infringes on the idividuals freedom
BRIAN: Yes. There are good and wise people, all over, who are compassionately working for the good. I see IMONK’s post as an overview of the current and future status of the organized churches in America. Within each congregation amidst all denominations…there surely exists real Christians who serve God….and do it well. Only God knows for sure.. who they are. Surfnetter said it in a similar way with, ” Nobody has it right churchwise, nor will anyone get it right. Some individuals get it right in themselves — we Catholics call them the Saints, and we claim to know who some of them are.”
The more I read IMONK’S Post #1 and #2, the more inspired I am to work more sincerely and fervently…because the days are dark. God will not let the ‘light’ of the church go out, completely, in this world…until His return. The ‘light’ is the Holy Spirit of God that draws man to repentance. When the Age of Grace ends…..hope of salvation is over! Don’t be discouraged! Rejoice! Do the work of Love! We are children of the Day….not of darkness.
Patrick,
If I can clear it up any, ask away.
A city where revival breaks out, and large numbers of souls get saved is a move of God. When a church grows from 10 people to 100 with no “sheep stealing” its a move of God. When some bit of the faith gets brought to the fore ground and brings balance (think Promise Keepers, the current, growing trend of theology coming back, a church feeling led into prayer and fasting, etc) is a move of God. Or can be. Sometimes it’s not. While it could be applied to events in an individuals life, it usually refers to a group.
The Great Awakening was a move of God.
I believe the Reformation was a move of God.
The Pentecostal Revival was a move of God.
It’s where God acts in a direct way in shepherding His people.
And just because we slap God’s name on it doesn’t really mean it is Him.
DD
I am loving the discussion here, and the disparate views of disparate people, and how on the whole the discussion is going on with a measure of respect.
Nice stuff.
I love what Headless Unicorn Guy said (and the name
If that is our theology, that we go to heaven and everything else burns, then there really IS no future. Perhaps our theology is reflected in the way we have allowed the earth to be mistreated.
I really can’t shake the sense I get that God is up to great and amazing things within the Body, even though there is so much decay around about. What blows my mind is how vast this Body is. The differences in viewpoint and doctrine and personality is astounding – and I suspect it all belongs. The fragmentation does not belong, but imagine a Body that is accepting of all of its different parts, even if some parts just cannot begin to understand how some of the other parts come to the conclusions they do.
All the parts matter.
After reading these two article and the ensuing disscuion … I think a re-read of Solomon in Ecclesiastes is in order: Meaningless, meaningless says the preacher …
how do you guys avoid dispair? It haunts my steps everyday …
I love what Headless Unicorn Guy said (and the name.) — Sue
The name comes from this picture I did for the AnthroCon 1999 conbook, “The Age of Reason has No Need of Unicorns”.
If that is our theology, that we go to heaven and everything else burns, then there really IS no future. Perhaps our theology is reflected in the way we have allowed the earth to be mistreated. — Sue
There’s an urban legend that Reagan’s first Secretary of the Interior said exactly that at his Senate confirmation hearing; since Christ Is Coming Soon and It’s All Gonna Burn, there is no need to conserve America’s resources.
J Michael Jones, another frequent commenter in these threads, has described the same attitude in his blog Christian Monist.
Thanks for the links, HUG
That is a rather scary urban legend
DOLCINO? DUH!
Eschatological enforcer Thomas Ice claims that someone named Dolcino taught a pretribulation rapture in 1304 A.D. What Ice doesn’t like to reveal is that Dolcino’s “proof” DOESN’T EVEN EXIST! So what does Ice’s claim rest on? Well, LONG AFTER Dolcino’s death an ANONYMOUS person wrote a SECONDHAND history of what Dolcino reportedly penned – a history that was CHANGED SEVERAL TIMES between the 1300s and the 1900s! If you’re wondering about Thomas Ice’s qualifications as a scholar, Google “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)” and “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun).” Many are unaware that after the Communists took over Russia and China, there were Christians in those countries who became violent with pastors who had constantly assured them that they would be raptured before anything resembling end-time horrors. Can Ice and other pretrib rapture merchandisers rest assured that if such scenarios occur in America and some other “rapturized” countries, Christians won’t be just as violent towards them?
(Something interesting, saw it while surfing. Sharee)
On the U.S. Episcopal church (my mother’s a member), several possible futures seem on offer:
(a) liberals make no concessions, retain control of assets.
(b) denomination splits along liberal-conservative lines, with conservatives keeping some church properties.
(c) they work out some sort of deal.
Much of their dispute promises to be about money and power, rather than theology per se. I don’t know enough to predict which will happen. If there is a divorce, then each half would find itself struggling to articulate what makes it different from the Unitarians on one hand, and the Baptists on the other.
I admire John Spong very much. His books are an honest attempt to grapple with theological problems that are as fundamental as they are difficult. I see none of this coming from the evangelicals. As for Gene Robinson, well, he can’t REALLY be the first gay bishop…
As an aside, again and again I see people referring to concepts of “orthodoxy” and “heresy” without explaining (let alone justifying) what they mean. The Nicene Creed, for example, was above all a factional political document. If you embrace it, then what about Chalcedon? (Catholics and Orthodox are required to cheer at this point, Armenians and Copts, to boo.)And if your answer involves the Bible, then how did you decide this–and how did you decide how to interpret it? When you get right down to it, all those crazy cults are really not so different from YOU…!
Atheist -> Baptist (SBC) -> Roman Catholic here.
I also found your blog posts through the Christian Science Monitor article. Very interesting set of posts–thanks for writing them!
“g. A hope for all of evangelicalism is a “rescue mission” from the world Christian community. If all of evangelicalism could see the kind of renewal that has happened in conservative Anglicanism through the Anglican Mission in America and other mission efforts, much good would be done. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity? I do not know, but I hope and pray that such an effort happens and succeeds.”
Just a data point from the Catholic perspective: There are already consecrated religious sisters (”nuns”) and priests coming from Africa and Asia to minister here in the U.S. and fill the void caused by our own lack of priestly and consecrated vocations. Also, there are many priests from Mexico coming to the U.S. to minister.
Faithful men and women from the West evangelized them over the past several hundred years, and now they are returning to re-evangelize us!
My passed on a printed copy of this article. For 2 days I’ve been depressed by this information. I am questioning the the beliefs of of the Left Behind series, and with the possibility of persecution coming to the Western Church soon I we may stay and suffer with no “Bail out” by the Lord…oh brother…I’ll still stay close to the Lord.
I think this collapse will be a good thing. Ive riased the possibility of our denomonation getting out of the NAE several years ago. Oringinally we were not accepted into the NAE because of 2 of our doctrinal beliefs. 1 being the sleep of the dead and the other being conditional immortaliy. I believe it was good for the NAE to keep those of us out whom they believed to be detrimental to thier mission. We were allowed into the NAE in the 1980s. We did not and have not changed these two distinctives. I am sure we were allowed in because our moral beliefs were in line, and by allowing us to join it raised the numbers to demonstrate that the NAE would be a force to be reckoned with politically.