The Coming Evangelical Collapse (2): What Will Be Left?
January 28, 2009 by iMonk
2. What will be left after the evangelical collapse?
a. An evangelicalism far from its historical and doctrinal core. Expect evangelicalism as a whole to look more and more like the pragmatic, therapeutic, church growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. The determination to follow in the methodological steps of numerically successful churches will be greater than ever. The result will be, in the main, a departure from doctrine to more and more emphasis on relevance, motivation and personal success….with the result being churches further compromised and weakened in their ability to pass on the faith.
For some time, we’ve been at a point that the decision to visit a particular evangelical church contained a fairly high risk of not hearing the Biblical Gospel. That experience will be multiplied and expanded in the years to come. Core beliefs will become less and less normative and necessary in evangelicalism.
b. An evangelicalized Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Two of the beneficiaries of the coming evangelical collapse will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been steadily entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more media and publishing efforts aimed at the “conversion” of evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox ways of being Christian.
A result of this trend will be the increasing “evangelicalization” of these churches. This should yield interesting results, particularly in the Orthodox church with its ethnic heritage and with the tensions and diversities in Catholicism that most converts never see during the conversion process. I expect the reviews of the influence of evangelicalism in these communions to be decidedly mixed.
c. A small portion of evangelicalism will continue down the path of theological re-construction and recovery. Whether they be post-evangelicals working for a reinvigoration of evangelicalism along the lines of historic “Mere Christianity,” or theologically assertive young reformed pastors looking toward a second reformation, a small, but active and vocal portion of evangelicalism will work hard to rescue the evangelical movement from its demise by way of theological renewal.
This is an attractive, innovative and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing and leadership development. Nonetheless, I believe the coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches. But I do believe many evangelical churches and schools will benefit from this segment of evangelicalism, and I believe it will contribute far beyond its size to the cause of world missions.
d. I believe the emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision. I expect to continue hearing emerging leaders, seeing emerging conferences and receiving emerging books. I don’t believe this movement, however, is going to have much influence at all within future evangelicalism. What we’ve seen this year with Tony Jones seems to me to be indicative of the direction of the emerging church.
e. Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear; they will exist only as a dying form of church. The Southern Baptist Convention will experience dramatic losses in the numbers of churches in the next 25 years. By 2050, the SBC will have half the number of churches it has today. (Who know how many members it will report.) The SBC will become “exhibit A” for the problems of evangelicalism, with fragmentation appearing everywhere and a loss of coherence on many fronts.
The fundamentalist ghetto has been breaking down in my own lifetime, and I expect this will continue. The “Jerry Falwell-Jerry Vines” type of fundamentalist Baptist will become a museum piece by the middle of the century.
f. Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Within that community, the battle for the future of evangelicalism will be fought by those who must decide whether their tradition will sink into the quicksand of heresy, relativism and confusion, or whether Charismatic-Pentecostalism can experience a reformation and renewal around Biblical authority, responsible leadership and a re-emergence of orthodoxy..
I see signs of life on all those fronts, but the key issue of leadership and the preparation of leaders leaves me with little hope that Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity can put its house in order. The dynamics of leadership within this tradition have conspired to bring the worst kinds of leaders to the forefront.
The stakes in Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity are very high. It has become a worldwide missions phenomenon, and it has become a community carrying the most virulent and destructive heresies and errors in evangelicalism. The next 15-25 years will be crucial for this community. I am hopeful, but not optimistic. I see and hear little from this community’s younger leadership that indicates there is anything close to a real recognition of the problems they face.
g. A hope for all of evangelicalism is a “rescue mission” from the world Christian community. If all of evangelicalism could see the kind of renewal that has happened in conservative Anglicanism through the Anglican Mission in America and other mission efforts, much good would be done. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity? I do not know, but I hope and pray that such an effort happens and succeeds.
At present, most of evangelicalism is not prepared to accept pastors and leadership from outside our culture. Yet there can be little doubt that within our western culture there is very little evidence of an evangelicalism that can diagnose and repair itself.
h. A vast number of parachurch ministries are going to become far less influential, and many will vanish. The same will likely be true from everything from Christian media to publishing. This will throw what remains of evangelicalism back on the local church, and that moves us to my last post, a consideration of whether this collapse is a good or bad thing.
i. I believe that the missionary sending agencies of evangelicalism will survive the coming collapse, but will be greatly weakened by significant decreases in the giving base. It is time for mission strategies among evangelicals to change, and it is long past time for westerners to use their resources to strengthen work within a nation and not to just send Americans to the mission fields.
Next: Is all of this a good or a bad thing?
Hmm…. I just skimmed over this and will need to go back and re-read, but 2 thoughts:
1. What you’re saying about Catholics and evangelicalism has been true since the late 1960s, with the start of the Charismatic Renewal here in the US.
2. I tremble to think of a future dominated by charismatic/Pentecostal churches, if only because I’ve attended them for most of my life as a Christian and there are SO many screwball phony “doctrines” out there, it’s not funny. After escaping from a church that got stuck on (and in) “spiritual mapping,” “strategic level spiritual warfare” and so-called Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation/”Moral Government” theology/”Christian magic” (that last is my term), all I can say is that there is a lot wrong in many of those circles. (Being practiced by the nicest of people, too – meant sincerely, BTW.) I know a lot of this stuff sounds like nonsensical ranting and/or some sort of weird RPG, but it’s dangerous – once you start trying to apply this stuff, you end up
- attributing all evil to the devil and hierarchies of demons
- assuming a dualistic view that’s not related to the Gospel (while cloaking it in “Christian” jargon)
- forgetting about free will, sin, etc.
- believing that you can manipulate God through prayer
- literally trying to “take territory” for God, which has dire consequences for social and political welfare of this and other countries
- extremely legalistic and OT-focused (I personally was told that some of the curses mentioned in Deuteronomy had fallen on me)
- people following after every contrary “wind” out there
- prayer and Christian symbolism used in the same way as is true of Wicca and many related/similar animist beliefs
… I could go on, but you get the point.
Well they are the majority of evangelicals that will stick with it. Their ascendency in the last 100 years is a fact, good and bad as you’ve described.
“…The SBC will become “exhibit A” for the problems of evangelicalism, with fragmentation appearing everywhere and a loss of coherence on many fronts…”
From what I’ve seen, not just through your blog but also through the interactions I’ve had with many Baptists, it already has.
“An evangelicalized Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Two of the beneficiaries of the coming evangelical collapse will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been steadily entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more media and publishing efforts aimed at the “conversion” of evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox ways of being Christian.”
I understand that your experience with your wife has you thinking a lot about the RCC (where I’m from!) but, what about the effects this may have on some of the mainline liturgical denominations like the Anglicans?
“Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism.”
I have to confess, this possibility concerns me. Most of the experiences I’ve has with Charismatic-Pentecostal Churches entails an experience that’s highly experiential, and isn’t this part of the problem in the first place? That we have a whole generation (or two) of Christian youth who could tell you what they believe in but not how or why?
and what about the neo-anabaptist side of the missional emerging church, and the new monastics like shane Claiborne… I think there’s a grassroots Kingdom movement growing there that’ll never be mainstream or become a majority, but I don’t see it really go ‘liberal’ or just dissapear soon…
If conservative Anglicans can get on the map, they will benefit. But the ECUSA is headed for the trash can of history. Only the intervention of God in the replacement of apostate leaders can save it.
That Grassroots movement is mostly going to embrace Obama progressive Statism, abortion and gay marriage, and that will put the whole thing back with the emerging church, with the mainline liberals and off the evangelical map. See my comments about Tony Jones. Some good will come, but I am quite pessimistic about the emerging church at this point. Many of its most vocal leaders seem to be headed directly down the predictable road of twentieth century liberalism, except some are going well beyond that into esoteric forms of Christianity (ex John Crowder) that are apostate.
Anabaptists aren’t on my map here. Mennonites in Ky are just mountain Baptists. Same issues, etc. Help me understand what I don’t see or hear.
I love people like Shane Claiborne (I was blown away by Jesus for President), but I really think that people like that are going to stay marginalized.
It seems to me like a lot of the church is being controlled more and more by fear – whether it’s of a Zeus-like God hurling thunderbolts out of the sky at you over not going to Sunday Evening Church, or the Liberal Homosexual Bogeyman underneath your bed – than out of love and grace. I suppose that emotionally, it’s easier to have an irrational fear of what you don’t know than to have a rational understanding of love and grace tied into what you do know.
You have my attention. I look forward to part 3. I keep wondering why many people continue to lack any semblance of the gift of discernment and are seemingly willing to swallow about anything. I see the surface appeal of Orthodoxy more than RC–in fact I’m listening to Ancient Faith Radio as I type. My wife has both Greek & Russian Orthodox in her background, and what you say about ethnic heritage and culture rings true. As for the Charismatic-Pentecostal wing, the show at “worship” is peppy & exciting, but surely folks can see beyond some of the egregious errors & misguided leaders–I just watched about 2 minutes of Ted Haggard on Oprah, which was about all I could take. Reformed, SBC, & mainlines all have a myriad of problems.
I wonder how God will work in all of this, as I continue to trust that he will–what other hope do we really have than that?
“A small portion of evangelicalism will continue down the path of theological re-construction and recovery.”
If Charismatics come to dominate Evangelism, then it might be beneficial to see the “reconstructions” (for lack of a better word) blend) converge with them. The best of the heart and the head.
And theological differences aside, as an American Evangelical, I’m thankful for the RCC’s steadiness and strength.
I don’t follow the emerging scene all that much, so what’s up with Tony Jones?
I probably fall into the category (c): an orthodox (post-)evangelical with an appreciation for both my historic Reformed tradition and the larger catholic liturgical and theological tradition. Politically, I’m left of center, but politics isn’t all the important to me.
I’m aware of various church plants (mostly Presbyterian and continuing Anglican) that would fit this mold, especially in urban centers and university towns, that seem healthy and growing. Where do you see these folks down the road?
You may find it interesting to know a train coming down the tracks of church history is a resurgence of Biblical literacy within the Catholic Church. The cardinal of the archdiocese of houston-galveston in Texas recently issued a statement calling upon all priests in his diocese and neighboring ones to get all of their congregants engaging the New Testament to facilitate worldwide transformation of lives. It’s in conjunction with the “You’ve Got the Time” campaign of Faith Comes by Hearing (www.fcbh.org). What will it do to the global church landscape if Catholic parishes are infused with common-man Biblical encounters in wholesale fashion?
Will this be left?
In my newspaper today:
An full page, color ad with photographs, for a church.
In big print taking up the top haf of the page: “What if… church was different? Relevant? Life changing? FUN? Pictures of people raising their hands high, holding guitars and smiling.
Below, some testimonials, with photos of smiling faces to accompany them. Here are a few of them:
“Journey is just such a fun place. We never knew that church could be so much fun and full of information at the same time. -Darrell & Marta
“It’s nice to be somewhere you’re comfortable and can be yourself. You leave your mask and all your other junk at the door and everyone just embraces you for who you are.” – Megan
“We love the casual environment and the people. It’s a place where we can be ourselves. We love the music, and the teaching is relevant to our daily lives.” – Dave & Sonya
See for yourself at JOURNEY! One church – Two locations. “Don’t just attend church – TAKE A JOURNEY.”
In a crest at the bottom corner of the page:
100% BOREDOM FREE GUARANTEE
IF YOU HATE IT, WE’LL BUY YOU LUNCH.
NO, SERIOUSLY!
For Times and Directions please visit our website at http://www.takeajourney.org
–
Is this going to survive?
Just a quick comment regarding d): I think you’re underestimating the cultural force and adaptability of the emergent movement. As much as it has resisted institutionalization (because of its DNA and goals) and being more narrowly defined, it still finds enormous resonance amongst the very group that you see leaving our current church structures in large numbers, particularly the younger segment. It may be a church structure that will look very different from anything we’ve seen and will definitely emphasize relationships over doctrine but that’s not necessarily a bad thing as long as the compass of Scripture remains a focal point.
Imonk….I sincerely believe in all the changes you’ve described for churches…now and future…are pretty on-target. But there is one change that may have been left out. In the next 10 to 20 years…we will hear more and more Kingdom gospel….the one Christ preached. Along with its hearing…will be the quiet, stedfast, and empowered Body of Christ healing the sick, doing good, casting out demons….and bearing much tribulation for their beliefs. They will be a closely knit group of people who are fearless but meek, gentle, and kind. They are the ‘city set on the hill’ for dark days. The light of the gospel in the world today is very..very…low….too low to penetrate the thick darkness. But, in thick darkness…a little ‘flicker’ casts a warm glow.
I’ll repeat from and earlier post and to echo IMonk.
I’m very impressed with the AMiA churhces. I think Anglicanism has in it a world wide framework that others do not possess to be a vein for good in evangelicalism.
As one inside the SBC, it will not disappear but it will beocome even more regional in its adhearance.
You can’t understand the level of ignorance in the SBC until you have experienced it.
Example
Today I conducted a funeral with a well respected, genuinely nice fellow SBC pastor. He is in his sixties. He is successful in the fact that he has pastored many churches and has seen growth at them and he is genuinely concerened with seeing souls brought to Christ.
However, we were chatting before and he mentioned he had preached for a few weeks at a local Methodist church, very small, that had pulled out of the UMC and went to the Southern Methodist over social cultural issues. He said he preached there a few weeks and “noticed they kept reading something every week,” so he said, “i took one home and read it and it said the believed in the catholic church,” Well he said he told his wife that they couldn’t go back if that church believed in the catholic church.
I tried to explain to him that it was the Apostles creed and that they meant catholic as in small “c” and not Roman Catholic. I might as well been speaking Greek.
Now I don’t tell this to make me sound smart. I’m not, most of you that post here know a thousand times more than me, but two things.
1. How can you be a minister of the gospel for 40 years and not have heard or read the Apostle’s Creed?
2. What does that say about your level of “inter-denominational” work?
I mean I know there are mostly baptist all around down here but I just dont’ get it.
AS SBC, we will be like the Amish, theologically pure (up for debate I know) but socially irrevelant.
internetelias, are you talking about some kind of tribulation force?..
Again – as I said in the response to the previous post, if you want to see what comes next look at the rest of the First World (I include Australia and New Zealand in this).
Generally, even Europe is still quite spiritual in the generic sense even as it has abandoned Christianity.
What you end up with is a small amount of the population in church at all, about a third of these go to liberal mainline denominations. A third or less go to middle of the road evangelical churches who have tended to lose their distinctives – with the odd church which still retains it’s denominational differences. The remaining third will go to a variety of charismatic churches with a range of theology from the sober to the wacky.
As you move into Eastern Europe the percentages change slightly, though it’s fair to say that most of the new Christian movements in these countries represent Alexei Ledyaev more than any sort of sober evangelicalism.
Like you, I don’t think that Charismatic-Pentecostalism is anywhere near realizing it’s own problems. These stem from the closely related issues of leadership and epistemology.
Problems with the Charismatic movement cannot be solved from above because of the leadership issue, and can’t be solved from below because of the epistemology issue.
OMG!!
God is so much BIGGER in every way than anyone and everyone’s ability to effect real change in the world. It is all going to go the way He wants it to go no matter what anyone thinks, decides or does.
Relax. It’s all a Gift. Just accept and give. Everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be, despite how anyone tries to mess it up and — what’s undoubtedly worse — how much we try to help God out ….
Just my opinion, of course
What I have seen of the “neo-anabaptist” part of the emerging church indicates that insofar as it is true to its principles, it will continue to be marginal. This, I think, leaves two possibilities. First, given the general anti-Bush sentiment prevailing in these circles, it is possible that some will go in the direction of what Imonk called “Obama statism” and simply become part of liberal Protestantism. But the other possibility, which I hope is more likely, is that they will continue to remain on the political and religious margins, rejecting power and coercion. The second would be good, but in neither case will it be very influential in evangelicalism.
im with kierkegaard.
Here’s some of what my local
church scene has had to offer.
http://oldfatslowland.blogspot.com/2007/02/gag-maggot.html
ofs
I was thinking about Mark Van steenwyk (jesusmanifesto.com, but the site is probably down til february 1st) and the whole ‘jesus for president’-side of new monasticism, and all those more anarchist-like radicals who are not that interested in any president of this world, and in no worldly system. Even Greg Boyd is leaning towards that… (I was also thinking about the anabaptist network, and people like stuart murray, but that’s UK) that’s what I meant with the grass-roots Kingdom movement, and if they can stay true to their vision they will stay small and vital and on the margins…
@austin: “Now I don’t tell this to make me sound smart. I’m not, most of you that post here know a thousand times more than me, but two things.
1. How can you be a minister of the gospel for 40 years and not have heard or read the Apostle’s Creed?”
I’ve encountered this myself, in several forms, but one of the most egregious of these was one instance where I was at a Pentacostal church – it was a nice place, with a nice pastor. However, that one time, he was teaching about a wonderfully refreshing new way to pray: The Lord’s Prayer. As someone who took it for granted as a staple of worship services, I was astounded that they treated it like it was some new, radical thing that they’d never heard of before.
“2. What does that say about your level of “inter-denominational” work?”
Er, it was my impression that “interdenominational” work consisted of evangelizing to other denominations in the belief that they’d see the light and join your side…
(and ps, I’m writing from belgium, so I’m not the one to say much about USA…)
The problem, Brambonius, is that we called to be “in and not of.” Yes, we are resident aliens, but we are called to be members of the community, to engage the culture, and to be active. I agree that a more issues-centric politics, less concerned with political parties and candidates, is probably a good idea, but rejecting politics entirely and being unconcerned with the conduct of our rulers is a un-Christian. It’s a sort of political gnosticism.
Your quote: “But the ECUSA is headed for the trash can of history. Only the intervention of God in the replacement of apostate leaders can save it.”
Wow! Is that the Good News of God in Christ I hear being preached in your words? Can you speak up just a bit … I can’t seem to hear any “Good News!”
Please pray for me, a sinner.
Sorry Eric. If you want me to look at A and call it B or C or Z, I can’t do it. The betrayal of evangelicalism and Protestant Catholicism by the ECUSA’s approval of Gene Robinson- a move that has split the church worldwide- is a serious error.
This bit of provoking division and then insisting on being embraced as brothers is a game the leadership of denoms like the ECUSA have pressed to the point of absurdity.
It’s the job of a bishop to be faithful or die trying.
You can pray for me, a sinner, too. The ordination of Gene Robinson and the defence of that ordination has caused a world of hurt. A huge, massive breach in a worldwide communion. The betrayal of faithful African bishops and Christians all for the cause of Robinson’s arrogant claim that God is doing a “new thing” through him and his ordination. God help us that this man remains a bishop after tearing the church apart.
“Wow! Is that the Good News of God in Christ I hear being preached in your words?”
What, would you prefer it sugar coated? When Christ by the Gospel, he stilled warned of the darkness and Hell that waited afterward for the sinner. The Good News was redemption and salvation.
What was the Good News in his words? Our ability to screw up our respective denominations can’t cancel out God’s purpose in this world. But it doesn’t change the fact that we screw up and that it has consequences. So, unless you want to plug your ears and bury your head in the sand, listen to the prognosis and then either agree or disagree, but don’t disregard.
Surfnetter,
Do you really believe that “Everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be”? I think God is grieved at the state of the church and didn’t intend it to be divided and misdirected as so much of it is. I know your ideas about Divine Providence play into how you view things like this, but I have to question what you’re actually saying, which is that things are going how God wants them to go. It reminds me of the saying “All is as God wills it”, which sounds very muslim.
(I’m not trying to be accusatory.. I’m just curious as to your thought process on this.)
I pray not only that people like Shane Claiborne et al remain marginalized … I pray we are all marginalized.
Then we will see what the Church is really about, it’s power in its weakness.
Michael, can you elaborate on what the “reinvigoration of evangelicalism along the lines of historic ‘Mere Christianity,’” would look like in your opinion?
graceshaker — “im with kierkegaard.”
At this point I’d rather go fishing with St. Peter.
Katie — I absolutely do believe that. Some of the biggest messes the world has ever gotten into was when men of seeming good will attempted to shape popular movements to where they thought God wanted the world to go. It is my personal belief, shared by many others, that the only movement of change that I am responsible for monitoring and altering is the state of my own being. My entire focus of my forwarding the cause of the Kingdom of God is within the boundaries of my own heart and soul. The only aspect of God’s will that I have jurisdiction over is His will for me. Everything else — and that means EVERYTHING — I simply must accept as in His exclusive Domain. Even my own children are His, and I am to lead them by example, not by formula.
I am a commercial fisherman and I work alone quite a lot. But I did serve as an elected public sector union official for a number of years sitting on the BOD of an employee organization responsible for nearly 8,000 employees and their livelihoods, and I practiced this there as well. Saved my sanity and quite a few jobs.
Like the first commenter, I was once involved in a church that blew shofars, waved swords, ‘took the city’, and flirted with heresy for the sake of God doing a ‘new thing’. Now I’m searching for a nice liturgical church with some sense of Orthodoxy and epistemology rooted in church history – not some pastors pizza induced ’spiritual’ dream.
As a Charismatic-Pentecostal, I have to echo some of the concerns voiced above. Especially in the Charismatic sector there seems to be a greater emphasis on experience then on the Bible. The old Pentecostal movement was pretty well grounded in Scripture (please, Cessasionists, don’t) and had a strong heritage back into the Methodist Holiness tradition. I’ve been in these circles for 18 years and didn’t know about the Methodist connection until the last year.
I’ve been lucky, God has kept me away from most of the wackiness I hear and read about. It is my dream to one day have a Pentecostal church where there is deep study of theology and church history. If God’s willing…
I believe though, that God has/ is relegating Pentecostalism , along with envagelicalism, behind. As much as I believe Pentecostalism was a renewing of the dead dry denominations who held sway before it, it is now leaving the faith. It will be replaced with something else. I’ve seen what I think it is. There are folks out there who are sincerely seeking and serving God who did NOT believe in the miraculous gifts. Yet, when these folks find themselves out doing what God has called them to do, they find themselves moving in those very gifts. The Gifts have always been tied to serving Jesus and others.
The Prosperity folks have and will continue to wreak their damage on the faith and on people. The Signs and Wonders Hunters will still take any claim of supernatural activity, no matter how obviously demonic, as God’s hand. The Prosperity message might make it into Africa and China and North Korea, but I doubt it. I really doubt the Hunters will get much of a foothold in places where they have experienced genuine moves of God.
DD
Sorry to ask a stupid question, but what exactly happened with Tony Jones this past year?
Embraced the legitimacy of gay marriage.
Scott:
Look in the IM category “Post Evangelicalism” for the basic posts in that topic. The ones where I define the term.
Patrick Lynch: >>>>internetelias, are you talking about some kind of tribulation force?..
No. I’m talking about a return to basics by regular Christians who hunger, thirst, and seek after God. ‘These signs will follow them that believe’…heal the sick..cast out devils….and so forth….as did the first Christians. I truly see a return to an impowered Body of Christ…fully equipped to do ‘greater things’ because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Christians who will not hesitate to die for the sake of Christ or the brethren……like those of the early church. I am fully convinced concerning the post-tribulation Second Coming. And I believe God is raising up a strong people who will ’stand’ and ‘endure’ to the end. People like Daniel, the Hebrew children, Joseph, and so forth. Just people…who have total trust in God.
@ internetelias
what you say makes sense to me as far as getting back to what’s important. It does appear that strife/tribulation occurs before deeper connection with God. There’s a longing for Him and not for His gifts. Obviously, noone knows the time frame but, eventually, that Second Coming is going to happen.
Surfnetter also said it well a few comments back.
internetelias, got it. Just as long as we’re not talking about some kind of Left Behind scenario.
I suppose I should have left this on the Part I post, but I’m troubled by a few things.
- It seems like you (Michael) are lumping the culture war and the conservative movement (National Review, etc.) in the same pot.
- While I agree that evangelicals (Dobson, Falwell, etc.) made a critical mistake of getting in bed with the culture war and supplanting the Gospel, what about abortion and bioethical issues? Surely you don’t mean to suggest we should have remained silent? In fact, I know you don’t, because you praised Russ Moore’s sermon on single-issue voting wherein Dr. Moore compared Christians who vote for pro-choice candidates to those who voted for pro-lynching, pro-KKK candidates in the 1950s and 1960s. But you should clarify that point further.
Lastly, about ECUSA. I totally agree with your point re: Gene Robinson. There is still much good in the group, however, with men like Paul Zahl, Fitzsimons Allison and the Mockingbird ministry in New York City. The problem, though, is that there many in ECUSA who are theologically orthodox (thanks be to God!) but are right at home with Jim Wallis and Tony Jones on politics, which means, of course, that they are as much in bed with Barack Obama as Jim Dobson was with George W. Bush. And the whole time they prattle on about common ground and understanding and so much noise and clutter. Sad and frustrating for those of us in ECUSA who aren’t interested in the AMiA.
“I’ve been lucky, God has kept me away from most of the wackiness I hear and read about. It is my dream to one day have a Pentecostal church where there is deep study of theology and church history. If God’s willing…”
DaveD, I’ve got a stupid question for you – do you think God ALLOWS some people waste away or to chase theological butterflies in strange churches and really guides others out of them?
Surfnetter: I totally agreee with your first comment. God controls EVERYTHING….even wickedness. Satan had to get premission to persecute Job. When God determines mercy on a nation, He holds back the forces of evil. When He determines judgement on a nation, He frees the forces of evil to do their work. Satan is not a free will. He is under the authority of God. He can perform only what God allows. In this time, we are seeing things not seen by other generations…things allowed by God. 2 Thes. 2:3-7 explains the ‘controls’ God exhibits on final end-time events. 6 “….and now ye know what WITHHOLDETH that he might be revealed in his time (speaking of the end-time rule of Anti-Christ).’ Also, ‘……only he who now LETTETH will LET, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall tht Wicked be revealed….’ We are mere mortals. We have no power over Satan…and certainly none over God. “Greater is he that is within you, than he that is in the world.” Only the Holy Spirit of God indwelling us puts Satan to flight. Without God, we are totally at the mercy of Satan…..and Satan has no mercy!
Patrick Lynch:>>>>>>>internetelias, got it. Just as long as we’re not talking about some kind of Left Behind scenario.
No. Definitely no Left Behind ‘tribulation forces.’ I never read any of the series. And I constantly warned those who did read, e.g. my daughter, to remember its fiction….not scripture. In used book stores, I find books of the series with Christian books. I take it upon myself to move them over to the fiction book areas. I do this rather discreetly…of course.
I think the statement that the Church is in the state God wants it to be in as proposed by Mr. Surf is as valid as saying that God desired the Nazis to invade Poland or establish Dachau or Buchenwald. Thing in the world and the Church are not in the state they are because God desires them that way but because of the sinfulness of men. God does not will or desire a fragmented screwed up Church whether it’s evangelical, catholic or whatever.
I know there are many good and godly people in the ECUSA and the mainlines. But in the ECUSA they are going to hunted down and run out. They arr adrift and their bishops are their enemies, for the most part. Same in the PCUSA, ELCA, UMC. Many, many good people and churches, but the die is cast because of leadership. Those groups will be miniscule by 2050.
@internetelias: I have to admit, I too was wondering if you were alluding to something akin to Kirk Cameron’s – uh, I mean Rayford Steele’s Tribulation Force from Left Behind.
I’ve also remembered that I can’t say the name “Rayford Steele” without breaking into giggles.
Imonk,
Iknow wrong post but I went back and read your 10 things to an improved evangelical church. Very good read.
I have a question that is killing me. It’s in my head like a hamster on a wheel.
How do we (baptist) particular fix our authority problem without conceding it to Roman Catholic Magesterium sp? argumemnts?
That has always seemed to be the problem with baptist with me. If i don’t like somethign I start my own church, i can do anythign I want and as long as I baptize believers little else matters and I can use the label baptist.
Help?
Is the BF&M the answer?
How do we reconcile Soul Competency with authority?
We can’t fix our problem on that level. We live with a smaller, far less comprehensive authority structure. And if we obsess on authority, I suggest medication.
To be Protestant is to solve the authority issue on a much smaller scale, with more potential for chaos.
Short of a hierarchy, you’ll never see authority in Baptist life much beyond the local congregation. And amen to that.