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	<title>Comments on: The Coffeehouse: A Story</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: tomsmedley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7376</link>
		<dc:creator>tomsmedley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2006 18:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7376</guid>
		<description>&lt;/i&gt;If any man care not for his own, specially they of his own household, he is worse than an infidel and hath denied the faith. 

Be that as it may, the most thought-provoking movie I ever saw on child rearing was the George C. Scott vehicle &lt;i&gt;Hard Core.&lt;/i&gt; A control-freak calvinist father learns, the hard way, that it is God&#039;s grace that redeems, not his controlling spirit. 

Sending kids to public school is irresponsible. So, too, is inhospitable isolationism. When done right, home schooling opens doors for outreach around the dinner table. It&#039;s a real eye-opener for a six year old to realize that the sweet young muslim couple is on the road to Hell. The couple you know personally, love dearly, and have had over for dinner.

Frankly, I&#039;m not that enamoured with &quot;youth ministry.&quot; A normal Christian family, I suspect, is engaged in &quot;family minstry&quot; -- ministry as a family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If any man care not for his own, specially they of his own household, he is worse than an infidel and hath denied the faith. </p>
<p>Be that as it may, the most thought-provoking movie I ever saw on child rearing was the George C. Scott vehicle <i>Hard Core.</i> A control-freak calvinist father learns, the hard way, that it is God&#8217;s grace that redeems, not his controlling spirit. </p>
<p>Sending kids to public school is irresponsible. So, too, is inhospitable isolationism. When done right, home schooling opens doors for outreach around the dinner table. It&#8217;s a real eye-opener for a six year old to realize that the sweet young muslim couple is on the road to Hell. The couple you know personally, love dearly, and have had over for dinner.</p>
<p>Frankly, I&#8217;m not that enamoured with &#8220;youth ministry.&#8221; A normal Christian family, I suspect, is engaged in &#8220;family minstry&#8221; &#8212; ministry as a family.</p>
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		<title>By: jfred</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7365</link>
		<dc:creator>jfred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 02:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7365</guid>
		<description>During a conference Q&amp;A session I asked a pastor who lives in and leads an inner city church whether he thought it was responsible to expose our children to danger by moving into the inner city.  

He laid into me, saying that he had grown weary of Christian parents using their kids as excuses. Our job, he said, was not to protect our children, but to raise in the admonition of Christ.  And, the pattern of the cross should compel us to take risks. 

I still think he was more than a little self-righteous in the way he responded, but much of what he said is true.  
The problem with Austin&#039;s acceptance of the status quo is that most of the kids in the big youth group grow up with little appreciation for what it means to suffer in Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>During a conference Q&amp;A session I asked a pastor who lives in and leads an inner city church whether he thought it was responsible to expose our children to danger by moving into the inner city.  </p>
<p>He laid into me, saying that he had grown weary of Christian parents using their kids as excuses. Our job, he said, was not to protect our children, but to raise in the admonition of Christ.  And, the pattern of the cross should compel us to take risks. </p>
<p>I still think he was more than a little self-righteous in the way he responded, but much of what he said is true.<br />
The problem with Austin&#8217;s acceptance of the status quo is that most of the kids in the big youth group grow up with little appreciation for what it means to suffer in Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Fongpe</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7360</link>
		<dc:creator>Fongpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7360</guid>
		<description>Indeed a typical story of everyday church, regardless of size or denominations. Leaders/Christians are continuing to build churches instead of making disciples. Churches are not built, we are the church. The church of Jesus Christ is made up of disciples who, &quot;hates his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life.&quot;

How can parents call themselves disciples of Jesus when they are not willing to lose their children. They have not &#039;counted their cost&#039; in following Jesus (lk 14:28). Jesus said, &quot;those who save their lives will lose it, those who lose their lives will save it.&quot; By saving/protecting our chilren we only end up losing them.

One of the hardest part in doing youth ministry is dealing with parents who are not willing to, &quot;deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Jesus.&quot; The bulk of Jesus ministries took place outside the &#039;churh&#039;. It&#039;s clear that His followers are not going where He went and is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed a typical story of everyday church, regardless of size or denominations. Leaders/Christians are continuing to build churches instead of making disciples. Churches are not built, we are the church. The church of Jesus Christ is made up of disciples who, &#8220;hates his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters &#8211; yes, even his own life.&#8221;</p>
<p>How can parents call themselves disciples of Jesus when they are not willing to lose their children. They have not &#8216;counted their cost&#8217; in following Jesus (lk 14:28). Jesus said, &#8220;those who save their lives will lose it, those who lose their lives will save it.&#8221; By saving/protecting our chilren we only end up losing them.</p>
<p>One of the hardest part in doing youth ministry is dealing with parents who are not willing to, &#8220;deny themselves, pick up their cross, and follow Jesus.&#8221; The bulk of Jesus ministries took place outside the &#8216;churh&#8217;. It&#8217;s clear that His followers are not going where He went and is.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7357</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7357</guid>
		<description>Beyond Words,
I think you may be on to something there...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beyond Words,<br />
I think you may be on to something there&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7356</link>
		<dc:creator>wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 01:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7356</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, Michael. That comment came out more harshly than I intended it to. I really enjoyed this parable and it spurred me to think HARD. Thanks for that and sorry for any abruptness. Blessings, Barbara</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, Michael. That comment came out more harshly than I intended it to. I really enjoyed this parable and it spurred me to think HARD. Thanks for that and sorry for any abruptness. Blessings, Barbara</p>
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		<title>By: wordsworth</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7355</link>
		<dc:creator>wordsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 01:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7355</guid>
		<description>After mulling over this story for a few days, here&#039;s what I think. I think that Skip FELT like this idea of a coffee house ministry downtown was daringly and exhilaratingly  &quot;out of the box.&quot; In some ways it was, but he maybe didn&#039;t recognize that he had simply exchanged boxes, not discarded one. The new box might have been bigger, but it was still a box.

Skip felt restless with all the emphasis on &quot;program&quot; but didn&#039;t see that running a coffeehouse was also a program. Maybe it wasn&#039;t purchased from Group Publishing and maybe it didn&#039;t have a denominational stamp on it, but it was still a Great Big Important Work the church was going to do. 

See, I think that Skip was so thoroughly wired for &quot;program&quot; that he didn&#039;t even recognize program in a less-familiar form. If his heart was purely and surely all about ministry to the guys who wanted to hang out in a coffee house, he didn&#039;t need to be the guy in CHARGE of the coffee house. 

Nobody was stopping Skip from finding a likely, local coffeeshop and making that his hangout. The problem was that Skip didn&#039;t REALLY want to _just_ hang out with the down and out. He was still a youth pastor who NEEDED to run things. He needed that coffeehouse ministry to BE a program....or, well, he would be out of a job. Because anyone can go sit at the local Starbucks and talk to people.

I think the change needs to be deeper than simply changing venues from the church youth center to a more neutral setting. Maybe Skip has the seeds of a dream that he needs to pursue, but I would guess that a real life Skip would need to first figure out that he can, in fact, just go do the relational, organic thing at the local Starbucks! It doesn&#039;t need to be a Big Thing that HE is in charge of.

That&#039;s how I read Skip...good heart, good intentions, possibly with great potential...still more of a koolaid drinker than he knows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After mulling over this story for a few days, here&#8217;s what I think. I think that Skip FELT like this idea of a coffee house ministry downtown was daringly and exhilaratingly  &#8220;out of the box.&#8221; In some ways it was, but he maybe didn&#8217;t recognize that he had simply exchanged boxes, not discarded one. The new box might have been bigger, but it was still a box.</p>
<p>Skip felt restless with all the emphasis on &#8220;program&#8221; but didn&#8217;t see that running a coffeehouse was also a program. Maybe it wasn&#8217;t purchased from Group Publishing and maybe it didn&#8217;t have a denominational stamp on it, but it was still a Great Big Important Work the church was going to do. </p>
<p>See, I think that Skip was so thoroughly wired for &#8220;program&#8221; that he didn&#8217;t even recognize program in a less-familiar form. If his heart was purely and surely all about ministry to the guys who wanted to hang out in a coffee house, he didn&#8217;t need to be the guy in CHARGE of the coffee house. </p>
<p>Nobody was stopping Skip from finding a likely, local coffeeshop and making that his hangout. The problem was that Skip didn&#8217;t REALLY want to _just_ hang out with the down and out. He was still a youth pastor who NEEDED to run things. He needed that coffeehouse ministry to BE a program&#8230;.or, well, he would be out of a job. Because anyone can go sit at the local Starbucks and talk to people.</p>
<p>I think the change needs to be deeper than simply changing venues from the church youth center to a more neutral setting. Maybe Skip has the seeds of a dream that he needs to pursue, but I would guess that a real life Skip would need to first figure out that he can, in fact, just go do the relational, organic thing at the local Starbucks! It doesn&#8217;t need to be a Big Thing that HE is in charge of.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how I read Skip&#8230;good heart, good intentions, possibly with great potential&#8230;still more of a koolaid drinker than he knows.</p>
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		<title>By: u2wesley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7353</link>
		<dc:creator>u2wesley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7353</guid>
		<description>Great story simply because it&#039;s true and it happens every day.  Regarding the comments that follow, each has its own insight as well.  But I think what all of this points to is the absolute failure of evangelicalism to construct any sort of theology of culture that didn&#039;t look like a crooked politician reading the latest polls and developing policy accordingly.  As one who spent 20 years &quot;in the ministry&quot; and has now spent the last 7 years &quot;out of the ministry&quot; but now has more of a ministry than I ever sniffed when I was taking a paycheck from a church, I have a lot of empathy for Skip.  I think Austin is the liberal pastor from that X-Files episode about snake handlers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great story simply because it&#8217;s true and it happens every day.  Regarding the comments that follow, each has its own insight as well.  But I think what all of this points to is the absolute failure of evangelicalism to construct any sort of theology of culture that didn&#8217;t look like a crooked politician reading the latest polls and developing policy accordingly.  As one who spent 20 years &#8220;in the ministry&#8221; and has now spent the last 7 years &#8220;out of the ministry&#8221; but now has more of a ministry than I ever sniffed when I was taking a paycheck from a church, I have a lot of empathy for Skip.  I think Austin is the liberal pastor from that X-Files episode about snake handlers.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7352</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7352</guid>
		<description>I have to admit that after reading this post, I am working through a variety of emotions. I&#039;m frustrated with the church for wanting to play it safe economically and physical neighborhoodly. I understand Austin&#039;s rebuff, but I&#039;m frustrated with the &quot;we&#039;re the base to inspire someone else to do&quot; mentality. Who&#039;s going to do, then? But after reading totemtotemple&#039;s points as well as both the comments of Diane and kennicon, I think I&#039;m left with this feeling of how do we communicate and incarnate Christ&#039;s love and truth in a meaningful way to this culture without being either isolationist in our own programs/cliques (which is how I grew up in youth group) or being so anxious to hit the trends, that we lose Christ in the marketing? (see http://heathergoodman.blogspot.com/2006/07/marketing-church.html for my specific frustrations on one church service) How do we maintain a love that is different, spiritual disciplines that set us apart as disciples of Christ but still a love that makes the world see that they matter to us and to God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to admit that after reading this post, I am working through a variety of emotions. I&#8217;m frustrated with the church for wanting to play it safe economically and physical neighborhoodly. I understand Austin&#8217;s rebuff, but I&#8217;m frustrated with the &#8220;we&#8217;re the base to inspire someone else to do&#8221; mentality. Who&#8217;s going to do, then? But after reading totemtotemple&#8217;s points as well as both the comments of Diane and kennicon, I think I&#8217;m left with this feeling of how do we communicate and incarnate Christ&#8217;s love and truth in a meaningful way to this culture without being either isolationist in our own programs/cliques (which is how I grew up in youth group) or being so anxious to hit the trends, that we lose Christ in the marketing? (see <a href="http://heathergoodman.blogspot.com/2006/07/marketing-church.html" rel="nofollow">http://heathergoodman.blogspot.com/2006/07/marketing-church.html</a> for my specific frustrations on one church service) How do we maintain a love that is different, spiritual disciplines that set us apart as disciples of Christ but still a love that makes the world see that they matter to us and to God?</p>
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		<title>By: tomsmedley</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7351</link>
		<dc:creator>tomsmedley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 13:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7351</guid>
		<description>How can we inculcate the virtue of HOSPITALITY in our people? Do this &quot;thought experiment.&quot; Start inviting people from church over for dinner. See how many dozens of families you have to feed before one returns the invitation. Our culture is broken in this respect.

Think about the millions of foreign students in our country, only a small percentage of whom will ever be invited into an American home. 

A church that takes hospitality seriously don&#039;t need no stinkin&#039; coffee house. Nor no stinkin&#039; &quot;youth ministry&quot; neither. 

But how can we transform the culture, to make family-friendly ministry happen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can we inculcate the virtue of HOSPITALITY in our people? Do this &#8220;thought experiment.&#8221; Start inviting people from church over for dinner. See how many dozens of families you have to feed before one returns the invitation. Our culture is broken in this respect.</p>
<p>Think about the millions of foreign students in our country, only a small percentage of whom will ever be invited into an American home. </p>
<p>A church that takes hospitality seriously don&#8217;t need no stinkin&#8217; coffee house. Nor no stinkin&#8217; &#8220;youth ministry&#8221; neither. </p>
<p>But how can we transform the culture, to make family-friendly ministry happen?</p>
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		<title>By: kennicon</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story/comment-page-1#comment-7346</link>
		<dc:creator>kennicon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 01:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-coffeehouse-a-story#comment-7346</guid>
		<description>Diane, I don&#039;t agree with your comment. I think the very problem with our &quot;evangelistic outreach&quot; to youth is that those who are in the church look and many times act just the same as those who are outside the church. Read any of the material produced my Josh McDowell and the statistics will suprise you. The reason kids whose parents aren&#039;t Christians don&#039;t come to church is not because of youth church cliques. It&#039;s because the youth that are churched aren&#039;t talking to anyone about Jesus, church friends or not, any more than their parents are with their friends and co-workers. We&#039;ve worked so hard to entertain our youth in churches that we&#039;ve missed the mark completely. I know from being a youth pastor, through personal experience that youth are more than comfortable with those of their peers who are unchurched. They&#039;re just like most of them in a lot of ways and that is what we must work against, that is the pattern that needs to be broken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diane, I don&#8217;t agree with your comment. I think the very problem with our &#8220;evangelistic outreach&#8221; to youth is that those who are in the church look and many times act just the same as those who are outside the church. Read any of the material produced my Josh McDowell and the statistics will suprise you. The reason kids whose parents aren&#8217;t Christians don&#8217;t come to church is not because of youth church cliques. It&#8217;s because the youth that are churched aren&#8217;t talking to anyone about Jesus, church friends or not, any more than their parents are with their friends and co-workers. We&#8217;ve worked so hard to entertain our youth in churches that we&#8217;ve missed the mark completely. I know from being a youth pastor, through personal experience that youth are more than comfortable with those of their peers who are unchurched. They&#8217;re just like most of them in a lot of ways and that is what we must work against, that is the pattern that needs to be broken.</p>
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