Comments on: The Church: Flawed and Finished (2) http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2 ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Caine http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-201541 Caine Sun, 17 Feb 2008 03:34:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-201541 Bigger question: How did you manage to spend enough time watching EWTN to even generate this question? I am not anti-Catholic (really, I am not!), but the station is mostly pure dreck that is almost painful to watch. I keep thinking "2000 years of history and this is the best you can do!" Not that I think the big-haired, pentecostal Protestant cable stations are any better. Both make my teeth hurt and build up a desire to crawl under a table, take down my Christian sign, and worship at the temple of Heebe-Jeebe of the Jungle. But then I guess I'd have to put up with the likes of Shirley MacLaine...Well, at least she still has some pretty nice legs to look at. Maybe the station itself proves your point: flawed even when finished...Well, maybe not. Bigger question: How did you manage to spend enough time watching EWTN to even generate this question? I am not anti-Catholic (really, I am not!), but the station is mostly pure dreck that is almost painful to watch. I keep thinking “2000 years of history and this is the best you can do!”

Not that I think the big-haired, pentecostal Protestant cable stations are any better. Both make my teeth hurt and build up a desire to crawl under a table, take down my Christian sign, and worship at the temple of Heebe-Jeebe of the Jungle. But then I guess I’d have to put up with the likes of Shirley MacLaine…Well, at least she still has some pretty nice legs to look at.

Maybe the station itself proves your point: flawed even when finished…Well, maybe not.

]]> By: Anna A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-197839 Anna A Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:20:33 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-197839 Jay, One possible explanation about the difference between original evangelization and now is the differences in life styles of Christians then and now. Then, Christians made a stir by not bowing down to the civil gods, not killing off unwanted children (especially girls), treating slaves with respect and kindness, etc. Now, with Christian ideals having permeated the culture, it is harder for us to stand out by our lives. (In a positive, desirable way.) Not to mention, I'm sure that a number of the early Christians were eager to tell about the one who changed their life. Jay,

One possible explanation about the difference between original evangelization and now is the differences in life styles of Christians then and now. Then, Christians made a stir by not bowing down to the civil gods, not killing off unwanted children (especially girls), treating slaves with respect and kindness, etc. Now, with Christian ideals having permeated the culture, it is harder for us to stand out by our lives. (In a positive, desirable way.)

Not to mention, I’m sure that a number of the early Christians were eager to tell about the one who changed their life.

]]> By: Ken http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-197824 Ken Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:10:36 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-197824 <i>This Corinthian congregation is, somehow, both a group of immature brats capable of turning the Lord’s Supper into a drunken party and the “sanctified in Christ Jesus,” those who have been enriched by God with all kinds of good gifts in Jesus.</i> "Because people are people, and the world is filled with tricks and twistiness yet undreamed of." -- One of the <i>Whole Earth Catalogs</i> This Corinthian congregation is, somehow, both a group of immature brats capable of turning the Lord’s Supper into a drunken party and the “sanctified in Christ Jesus,” those who have been enriched by God with all kinds of good gifts in Jesus.

“Because people are people, and the world is filled with tricks and twistiness yet undreamed of.”
– One of the Whole Earth Catalogs

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-197796 Bror Erickson Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:23:26 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-197796 I think what Luther says about the individual believer being simultaniously saint and sinner, can also be said about the church in this world. That is it is both flawed and perfect even in this world. Flawed as it is made up of sinners, perfect as it is the body of Christ. I think what Luther says about the individual believer being simultaniously saint and sinner, can also be said about the church in this world. That is it is both flawed and perfect even in this world. Flawed as it is made up of sinners, perfect as it is the body of Christ.

]]> By: Nicholas Anton http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-197694 Nicholas Anton Fri, 08 Feb 2008 06:27:56 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-197694 [Sir Edwyn Hoskyns and Noel Davey (Faber & Faber, 1931)] discusses the evolution of the term, ekklesia, from it’s Greek roots, to it’s use in the Septuagint, and finally to it’d use in the New Testament Church. I found the article fascinating. Anyone wishing to read the material, simply go to Google and type in the bracketed material. The Church (singular) is the bride and body of Christ, and not the churches (Plural). The Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ are never referred to in the plural. As the body of Christ is “ONE”, likewise is the Bride. Jesus Christ is not a polygamist. He only has “ONE” bride. 1Co 12:28-30 demonstrates this point well; And God hath set some in the church (singular), first apostles (plural), secondarily prophets (plural), thirdly teachers (plural), after that miracles (plural), then gifts (plural) of healings (plural), helps (plural), governments (plural), diversities (plural) of tongues (plural). Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? I find it interesting that in the two lists of Spiritual gifts as found in 1 Co. 12, with the exception of the twelve Apostles, no church officials and offices are mentioned. The various gifts are directed to the Church through individuals and controlled by the Holy Spirit, and not by any church hierarchy. In many ways, the early church was much like Israel at the time of the judges, in which there was no “official” leadership, until, at the request of the elders, against the will of God, they asked for a king. The seeming chaos as found in the book of the Judges and in the Corinthian church is also quite similar. And yet, in spite of the seeming problems because of the lack of an appointed leadership, it seems that God desires equality and freedom over hierarchical rule. [Sir Edwyn Hoskyns and Noel Davey (Faber & Faber, 1931)] discusses the evolution of the term, ekklesia, from it’s Greek roots, to it’s use in the Septuagint, and finally to it’d use in the New Testament Church. I found the article fascinating. Anyone wishing to read the material, simply go to Google and type in the bracketed material.

The Church (singular) is the bride and body of Christ, and not the churches (Plural). The Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ are never referred to in the plural. As the body of Christ is “ONE”, likewise is the Bride. Jesus Christ is not a polygamist. He only has “ONE” bride.

1Co 12:28-30 demonstrates this point well;
And God hath set some in the church (singular), first apostles (plural), secondarily prophets (plural), thirdly teachers (plural), after that miracles (plural), then gifts (plural) of healings (plural), helps (plural), governments (plural), diversities (plural) of tongues (plural). Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
I find it interesting that in the two lists of Spiritual gifts as found in 1 Co. 12, with the exception of the twelve Apostles, no church officials and offices are mentioned. The various gifts are directed to the Church through individuals and controlled by the Holy Spirit, and not by any church hierarchy. In many ways, the early church was much like Israel at the time of the judges, in which there was no “official” leadership, until, at the request of the elders, against the will of God, they asked for a king.

The seeming chaos as found in the book of the Judges and in the Corinthian church is also quite similar. And yet, in spite of the seeming problems because of the lack of an appointed leadership, it seems that God desires equality and freedom over hierarchical rule.

]]> By: Jay http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-197665 Jay Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:28:56 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-197665 As a Southern Baptist I was surprised when I realized that, in the midst of all the immaturity and worldliness that was present in the NT churches, Paul and the other authors spent little to no time telling the believers that they needed to boldly witness. That hardly jives with the "Every Member's Job" mentality I've been force-fed all these years. As a Southern Baptist I was surprised when I realized that, in the midst of all the immaturity and worldliness that was present in the NT churches, Paul and the other authors spent little to no time telling the believers that they needed to boldly witness. That hardly jives with the “Every Member’s Job” mentality I’ve been force-fed all these years.

]]> By: Josh S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2/comment-page-1#comment-197657 Josh S Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:06:28 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-2#comment-197657 I hate to be the party-pooper, Michael, but if I were a roving Catholic apologist, I'd say that infallibility only applies to the pope speaking ex cathedra and conciliar declarations confirmed by the pope. So laymen, congregations, priests, bishops, and even popes can err and err gravely, and that's all that's going on here. If it's not Peter propagating a dogma, all bets are off, which in my opinion seriously weakens that "gates of hell shall not overcome" language that the drive-by apologists use. An infallible church that's actually fallible 99% of the time and capable of largely going to hell in a handbasket except when the guy at the top is making a grand declaration, is like, well, a Bible that's only the Word of God in the original manuscripts. I hate to be the party-pooper, Michael, but if I were a roving Catholic apologist, I’d say that infallibility only applies to the pope speaking ex cathedra and conciliar declarations confirmed by the pope. So laymen, congregations, priests, bishops, and even popes can err and err gravely, and that’s all that’s going on here. If it’s not Peter propagating a dogma, all bets are off, which in my opinion seriously weakens that “gates of hell shall not overcome” language that the drive-by apologists use. An infallible church that’s actually fallible 99% of the time and capable of largely going to hell in a handbasket except when the guy at the top is making a grand declaration, is like, well, a Bible that’s only the Word of God in the original manuscripts.

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