Comments on: The Church: Flawed and Finished (1) http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-1 ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:44:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Kevin J. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-1/comment-page-1#comment-197662 Kevin J. Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:24:09 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-1#comment-197662 pastors and leaders either promote or correct flaws in the church (little c). I just left a church which, in my opinion, has many issues originating from the pastor leadership level. I know we (I) are fallen, broken, and imperfect as part of the local body. I am just frustrated that nothing can change for the better if the pastor doesnt respond or care. Im learning much here @ imonk. Been a God send as I transition out of the only church and fellowship Ive ever been a part of. "whoever among you who wants to be the greatest must be a servant." pastors and leaders either promote or correct flaws in the church (little c). I just left a church which, in my
opinion, has many issues originating from the pastor
leadership level. I know we (I) are fallen, broken, and
imperfect as part of the local body. I am just frustrated that nothing can change for the better if the pastor doesnt respond or care.

Im learning much here @ imonk. Been a God send as I transition out of the only church and fellowship Ive ever been a part of. “whoever among you who wants to be the greatest must be a servant.”

]]> By: Nicholas Anton http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-1/comment-page-1#comment-197656 Nicholas Anton Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:05:47 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-church-flawed-and-finished-1#comment-197656 Note what John Meyendorff, former dean of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and Professor of Church History and Patristics states regarding the institutionalized authority of the physical church as assumed by many to exist in Matt 16:18; "Origen, the common source of patristic exegetical tradition, commenting on Matthew 16:18, interprets the famous logion as Jesus’ answer to Peter’s confession: Simon became the ‘rock’ on which the Church is founded because he expressed the true belief in the divinity of Christ. Origen continues: ‘If we also say “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” then we also become Peter...for whoever assimilates to Christ, becomes rock. Does Christ give the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone, whereas other blessed people cannot receive them?’ According to Origen, therefore, Peter is no more than the first ‘believer,’ and the keys he received opened the gates of heaven to him alone: if others want to follow, they can ‘imitate’ Peter and receive the same keys. Thus the words of Christ have a soteriological, but not an institutional, significance. They only affirm that the Christian faith is the faith expressed by Peter on the road to Caesarea Philippi. In the whole body of patristic exegesis, this is the prevailing understanding of the ‘Petrie’ logia, and it remains valid in Byzantine literature...Thus, when he spoke to Peter, Jesus was underlining the meaning of the faith as the foundation of the Church, rather than organizing the Church as guardian of the faith (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology (New York: Fordham, 1974), pp. 97-98)." James McCue in Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue affirms the above views of Origen as expressed in the following statement: "When Origen is commenting directly on Matthew 16:18f, he carefully puts aside any interpretation of the passage that would make Peter anything other than what every Christian should be...(His) is the earliest extant detailed commentary on Matthew 16:18f. and interestingly sees the event described as a lesson about the life to be lived by every Christian, and not information about office or hierarchy or authority in the Church (Paul Empie and Austin Murphy, Ed., Papal Primacy in the Universal Church (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1974), Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue V, pp. 60-61)." Note what Paul states regarding the Church; Eph 2:18-22; For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Our view of the church, it’s structure and it's functions, will largely depend on whether we perceive it to be a physical structure as the Catholics, Landmark Baptists, Gospel Hall Brethren, and Church of Christ do, or if we see it as a Spiritual entity comprised of all who have Come to Jesus Christ by faith. Note what John Meyendorff, former dean of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and Professor of Church History and Patristics states regarding the institutionalized authority of the physical church as assumed by many to exist in Matt 16:18;
“Origen, the common source of patristic exegetical tradition, commenting on Matthew 16:18, interprets the famous logion as Jesus’ answer to Peter’s confession: Simon became the ‘rock’ on which the Church is founded because he expressed the true belief in the divinity of Christ. Origen continues: ‘If we also say “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” then we also become Peter…for whoever assimilates to Christ, becomes rock. Does Christ give the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone, whereas other blessed people cannot receive them?’ According to Origen, therefore, Peter is no more than the first ‘believer,’ and the keys he received opened the gates of heaven to him alone: if others want to follow, they can ‘imitate’ Peter and receive the same keys. Thus the words of Christ have a soteriological, but not an institutional, significance. They only affirm that the Christian faith is the faith expressed by Peter on the road to Caesarea Philippi. In the whole body of patristic exegesis, this is the prevailing understanding of the ‘Petrie’ logia, and it remains valid in Byzantine literature…Thus, when he spoke to Peter, Jesus was underlining the meaning of the faith as the foundation of the Church, rather than organizing the Church as guardian of the faith (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology (New York: Fordham, 1974), pp. 97-98).”
James McCue in Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue affirms the above views of Origen as expressed in the following statement:
“When Origen is commenting directly on Matthew 16:18f, he carefully puts aside any interpretation of the passage that would make Peter anything other than what every Christian should be…(His) is the earliest extant detailed commentary on Matthew 16:18f. and interestingly sees the event described as a lesson about the life to be lived by every Christian, and not information about office or hierarchy or authority in the Church (Paul Empie and Austin Murphy, Ed., Papal Primacy in the Universal Church (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1974), Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue V, pp. 60-61).”
Note what Paul states regarding the Church;
Eph 2:18-22;
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Our view of the church, it’s structure and it’s functions, will largely depend on whether we perceive it to be a physical structure as the Catholics, Landmark Baptists, Gospel Hall Brethren, and Church of Christ do, or if we see it as a Spiritual entity comprised of all who have Come to Jesus Christ by faith.

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