>”it is incredibly disappointing to see what some people are waiting to jump on in a blog post, no matter what the post is about.”

Sorry you felt “disappointed” as I actually was not waiting to jump on a blog post. I read your blog every weekend. I’ve been a fan for several years now. I’ve also been studying Baptist history and had just learned of the “father” quirk a day or two before and had just posted about the quirk on my own blog. When I saw your statement and knowing that you are Baptist, I thought you might like to know a trivial bit of Baptist history. I apologize if I led the discussion astray as that was not my intent.

BTW, another bit of Baptist historical trivia related to your tile “They bought me” is that for the first 200 years of American history, Baptist ministers were unpaid. Baptist ministers practiced a secular vocation and volunteered as ministers.

God bless…

+Timothy

Acts 13: 1In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Note that there were 5 who were prophesying and teaching, but only two were called to special work.

And I Tim is plain:

>>I Tim 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

We can’t say that God has appointed us to ministry solo. A call to ministry in the church is confirmed by the church and its leaders. That’s what we read about in I Tim 4.

peace

MS

When you said, “I also believe in the priestly ministry of all God’s people to one another and to the world. We are ministers, shepherds, mentors and teachers to one another.” I breathed a big sigh. I agree completely.

Now, let’s get back on the topic of ordination. If we agree that all Christians are to be ministers to one another then what is the point of ordination other than to separate some from everyone else? I should probably ask… Is this the original topic? I think that you stated that ordination was great and I started down the why not all path…

It seems that some are saying that ALL can become Christians. Only those with an associates degree can be baptized. Those with Bachelors can be elders and then those with an MDIV can be ordained.

I want to be in a community that is true to what Jesus wanted. We are all in it together and serve out the various roles and learn to have unity and encouragement. This discussion probably needs to be in the “What Will It Be For The Institution? Blind Loyalty or Naive Criticism?” topic.

I’m not going to go down the road of deconstructing the Pastoral epistles and the Pauline letters so there are no pastors set aside to shepherd and teach. I absolutely agree and that the modern ministry and the New Testament ministry are likely quite far apart, but verse after verse has to be deconstructed to say that elders are not doing the work described as set aside leaders of some kind.

>I Tim 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Set aside by a council of elders.
Gift
Public reading
exhortation
teaching
Hearers
Responsible for teaching

This isn’t the modern CEO of the megachurch, but it is the pastoral ministry described in the later New Testament.

I also believe in the priestly ministry of all God’s people to one another and to the world. We are ministers, shepherds, mentors and teachers to one another.

peace’

MS

Hmmm. I don’t think that I am saying that we should be “rid of any concept of ordination”. I am just saying that we need to be careful with it’s use. I am not the great writer that you are.

Where did Paul say that Tim was set up as a “pastor”?

I agree that God’s people have specific roles as pastors and teachers… I don’t really see the “set aside” bit as we define it today. Didn’t all of the disciples have jobs and refused to “depend” on people for their sustenance?

20 years ago a neighbor/friend died in a car accident. We weren’t real close but my wife and I then found ourselves caring for his widow and 4 and 6 year old. That 4 year old is the young man that I married last week. I have been a pastor to them over the years even though I don’t have the blessing/ordination of any organization. I do think that I have had it from God and would have been much better if my community of believers had given me that kind of encouragement. My “cracker jacks” ordination just allows me to have the state recognize me as the person that joined them together.

I don’t mean to take away from what you have experienced as an ordained guy… I just know that people see things through their paradigms and therefore live the “have/have not” shaped spirituality rather than a Jesus shaped one. Most people could really use this type of encouragement so that they will join the mission rather than expecting so much of their “pastor”.

I am new to your blogs and I really enjoy how God has put you together and then given you this format so that we can share together. This is really cool. Let me know if I am not helping the point of this post and/or tell me to stop writing and I will.

WHile the contemporary ministry is a mess, the New Testament does teach that God’s people have specific pastors and teachers, set aside for those purposes.

My premise is that ordination as it is used today isn’t Biblical and that the way we use it is not healthy for the ordained and the non-ordained. I wouldn’t say that it is wrong but rather that it is given too much credence and causes most to either think too highly of themselves or to sit on the sidelines.

You associate a “calling” to “ordination” and then to “full time ministry”. This is where I have trouble. The Bible isn’t all that clear on the ordination issue. Jesus “ordained” non-trained men to the work of “ministry” but he didn’t call it ordination. He merely said “follow me”. Evangelicals today think that you have to be called to be ordained, so if you aren’t ordained then you aren’t called and so you can just go to your secular work, teach a Sunday school class or something else that is for a simpleton.

Wikipedia defines ministry as “activity by Christians to spread or express their faith”. It seems to me that the Bible calls ALL Christians to this ministry.

We get the concept of pastor from Ephesians 4 where it reads “It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” This reads that the group of believers work together to find new Christians that grow the body of Christ. Then note… All of us get the whole measure of the fullness. Not just the Pastors with the special calling. We put too much emphasis and pressure on one person and things fall apart.

Your very first sentence is “Ministry can be a very difficult thing.”. What you are really referring to is “running a church or leading a congregation”… not necessarily ministry.

Regarding your comment “You have to be a very special person with a very special calling to be able to say to yourself every morning, “God has placed me here to lead these people, and despite the hurt that I will encounter I will continue to do his will.” Getting a $29.95 ordination from a Cracker Jacks box will not prepare you for that.”"

My largest wounds come from church organizations and their leaders. However, I have a very special calling because every morning I get up and say “God has placed me here with His ministry as my mission. Despite the hurt that I will encounter I will continue to do his will.” I think that my original comments were pointing out that God will prepare us all for that if we will let Him. Instead, we sit back and think that since we are just lay people we aren’t ready/prepared/called to join the mission.

Is it possible that we have re-defined these words to a point that they are not what God intended and that is why you think that if you aren’t a “pastor” then you are just a lay person that doesn’t have a special calling? You said it yourself if you read between the lines. You don’t think that you or iMonk have a “Very special calling” and are therefore doing “less important” work. You guys have everything you need to be giants in The Ministry… without your training and/or ordination.

In the original post it said ““Today, my ordination reminded me that I belong to God’s particular people, and they aren’t giving up on me. ”. I think this would be better said as “Today, my community of believers reminded me that I belong to God’s particular people, and they aren’t giving up on me.”. This fits the model of The Church than gathers together to encourage one another on toward love and good deeds.