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	<title>Comments on: The Big Worship Goof</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:19:11 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Unsolicited Advice for Those of You Going to Passion 2010: Worship &#171; Everyone&#8217;s Entitled to Joe&#8217;s Opinion</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-5#comment-502065</link>
		<dc:creator>Unsolicited Advice for Those of You Going to Passion 2010: Worship &#171; Everyone&#8217;s Entitled to Joe&#8217;s Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 04:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-502065</guid>
		<description>[...] which appeared on Michael Spencer&#8217;s blog and which I linked here a few weeks back, called &#8220;The Big Worship Goof&#8221;.  The idea of this post is that we evangelicals have got it almost all wrong on worship because we [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] which appeared on Michael Spencer&#8217;s blog and which I linked here a few weeks back, called &#8220;The Big Worship Goof&#8221;.  The idea of this post is that we evangelicals have got it almost all wrong on worship because we [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sensus Divinitatis News</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-5#comment-500406</link>
		<dc:creator>Sensus Divinitatis News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-500406</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Big Worship Goof...&lt;/strong&gt;

This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Big Worship Goof&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: The New ??? Worship Wars &#171; Thoughts On The Church &#38; Leadership</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-487379</link>
		<dc:creator>The New ??? Worship Wars &#171; Thoughts On The Church &#38; Leadership</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-487379</guid>
		<description>[...] all of this today.  My real purpose is to draw your attention to a newer post by InternetMonk on what is wrong with evangelical worship.  Then to another post by Bill Kennon on his lament over worship.  Both are well worth your [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all of this today.  My real purpose is to draw your attention to a newer post by InternetMonk on what is wrong with evangelical worship.  Then to another post by Bill Kennon on his lament over worship.  Both are well worth your [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer on Worship &#171; Everyone&#8217;s Entitled to Joe&#8217;s Opinion</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-487177</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer on Worship &#171; Everyone&#8217;s Entitled to Joe&#8217;s Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-487177</guid>
		<description>[...] The post which I have in mind for you is on worship.  It is about the commercial and professional enterprise of worship music which has developed within evangelical Protestant-dom over the last couple of decades, and how this is an extremely unfortunate development.  This meshes quite well with what I have said about worship in previous posts. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The post which I have in mind for you is on worship.  It is about the commercial and professional enterprise of worship music which has developed within evangelical Protestant-dom over the last couple of decades, and how this is an extremely unfortunate development.  This meshes quite well with what I have said about worship in previous posts. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Khanya</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-485567</link>
		<dc:creator>Khanya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-485567</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;What is&#160;worship?...&lt;/strong&gt;

In a comment on another post Roger Saner wonders &#8220;if Christianity is going to be split amongst those who believe the one true Gospel of Jesus (which is about repenting from your sins so that you’ll be saved from the coming judgement) and those ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>What is&nbsp;worship?&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>In a comment on another post Roger Saner wonders &#8220;if Christianity is going to be split amongst those who believe the one true Gospel of Jesus (which is about repenting from your sins so that you’ll be saved from the coming judgement) and those &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Bryant</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-483218</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-483218</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m saying nothing against a good beer, Sue! :) Nothing at all! Good beer is . . . good! (I wish my wife could make an Orval ale.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m saying nothing against a good beer, Sue! <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Nothing at all! Good beer is . . . good! (I wish my wife could make an Orval ale.)</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-483213</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-483213</guid>
		<description>OK, OK, Bill. Be an old stick in the mud. Luther&#039;s wife did own an operate a brewery! A skill she apparently learn while being a Cistercian Nun. Maybe that&#039;s where the Trappist beer can from? What do ya think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, OK, Bill. Be an old stick in the mud. Luther&#8217;s wife did own an operate a brewery! A skill she apparently learn while being a Cistercian Nun. Maybe that&#8217;s where the Trappist beer can from? What do ya think?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Bryant</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-483209</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-483209</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s gratifying to see that a thread like this can run to almost 200 posts without mention of Luther&#039;s tavern tunes.

In case you&#039;re one of those still passing around this tired old urban legend, let me set the record straight by quoting something I wrote on another blog.

&quot;For years now, when using or making music intended for Christian worship, people have rationalized their conformity to popular culture by repeating the widespread myth that Luther (sometimes in the myth it&#039;s Wesley) used drinking songs as the basis for his great hymn tunes.

Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Luther (Wesley too) abhorred the idea of borrowing a tune or style already saturated with secular connotations. Why the myth, then? Because of a misunderstanding. One of the many forms of music (i.e. sonata, fugue, minuet, rondo, etc.) is called &quot;bar form&quot;—three or more stanzas, each divided into two Stollen (section a) and one Absegang (section b)—and it happens that Luther&#039;s &quot;A Mighty Fortress Is Our God&quot; is a perfect example of this musical structure. So Luther did indeed write a bar tune, but it was not based on a barroom tune. (If you want to look it up yourself, check out the article on bar form in the Harvard Dictionary of Music, or just Google it and read the more obviously scholarly articles that pop up. You&#039;ll learn that many Lutheran chorales are in bar form, and that the Star Spangled Banner is another good example.)

Next time somebody tells you that Luther based his music on the popular tunes of the day, ask him if he learned this from a musicologist—or if he&#039;s just perpetuating an urban legend to justify the church&#039;s increasing conformity to the world.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s gratifying to see that a thread like this can run to almost 200 posts without mention of Luther&#8217;s tavern tunes.</p>
<p>In case you&#8217;re one of those still passing around this tired old urban legend, let me set the record straight by quoting something I wrote on another blog.</p>
<p>&#8220;For years now, when using or making music intended for Christian worship, people have rationalized their conformity to popular culture by repeating the widespread myth that Luther (sometimes in the myth it&#8217;s Wesley) used drinking songs as the basis for his great hymn tunes.</p>
<p>Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Luther (Wesley too) abhorred the idea of borrowing a tune or style already saturated with secular connotations. Why the myth, then? Because of a misunderstanding. One of the many forms of music (i.e. sonata, fugue, minuet, rondo, etc.) is called &#8220;bar form&#8221;—three or more stanzas, each divided into two Stollen (section a) and one Absegang (section b)—and it happens that Luther&#8217;s &#8220;A Mighty Fortress Is Our God&#8221; is a perfect example of this musical structure. So Luther did indeed write a bar tune, but it was not based on a barroom tune. (If you want to look it up yourself, check out the article on bar form in the Harvard Dictionary of Music, or just Google it and read the more obviously scholarly articles that pop up. You&#8217;ll learn that many Lutheran chorales are in bar form, and that the Star Spangled Banner is another good example.)</p>
<p>Next time somebody tells you that Luther based his music on the popular tunes of the day, ask him if he learned this from a musicologist—or if he&#8217;s just perpetuating an urban legend to justify the church&#8217;s increasing conformity to the world.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: J.M.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-483175</link>
		<dc:creator>J.M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-483175</guid>
		<description>Hooah IMonk, Hooah</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hooah IMonk, Hooah</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Schwegler</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-483148</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Schwegler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3401#comment-483148</guid>
		<description>What I would say (in support of Bill) is that the present age seems determined to discard any and all songs (regardless of quality) once they get too old.  The choruses I sang as a youth in the 1980s are seldom heard today, and I am confident that the same will soon be true of the current crop.

The trouble with this mindset is that, once songs become disposable, the incentive to write good ones diminishes; the desire to write well becomes subordinate to the need to write quickly and in quantity.  We are likely to get plenty of bad songs in this environment, but we will insist on using them because the existing songs are &quot;too old&quot;.

The church has not always done it this way; the older tradition (in the western church) is more cumulative.  A typical Protestant hymnal frequently contains elements of Latin plainsong (&quot;O Come, O Come Emmanuel&quot;), Reformation hymnody (&quot;A Mighty Fortress&quot;), Methodist revivalism (&quot;O For a Thousand Tongues&quot;), 19th century revivalism (&quot;When We All Get to Heaven&quot;), spirituals (&quot;Lord, I Want to be a Christian&quot;), and 20th century gospel (&quot;I&#039;d Rather Have Jesus&quot;), among other things.  The arrival of new songs did not mean the automatic end of all of the old ones; &quot;Great is Thy Faithfulness&quot; did not relegate &quot;Now Thank We All Our God&quot; to obscurity.  These songs, while different in style, could exist in a common repertoire, be accompanied by a common instrumentation and be sung in a common setting.  Not everything from every era was retained, but there was no notion that the old songs HAD to be replaced en masse, simply because new ones had been written.  The mindset today is much different.

The saddest part of this whole scenario is the likelihood that the worship wars will never really end.  As long as the old must constantly give way to the new, people who actually value the old songs will clash with devotees of the &quot;latest and greatest&quot;.  We may not be fighting over hymns 20 years from now, but I suspect that we&#039;ll have the same sort of ugliness over Chris Tomlin&#039;s songs, which will seem quite dated by then.  The combatants and battlefield will be different, but the nastiness and lovelessness will be strangely familiar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I would say (in support of Bill) is that the present age seems determined to discard any and all songs (regardless of quality) once they get too old.  The choruses I sang as a youth in the 1980s are seldom heard today, and I am confident that the same will soon be true of the current crop.</p>
<p>The trouble with this mindset is that, once songs become disposable, the incentive to write good ones diminishes; the desire to write well becomes subordinate to the need to write quickly and in quantity.  We are likely to get plenty of bad songs in this environment, but we will insist on using them because the existing songs are &#8220;too old&#8221;.</p>
<p>The church has not always done it this way; the older tradition (in the western church) is more cumulative.  A typical Protestant hymnal frequently contains elements of Latin plainsong (&#8221;O Come, O Come Emmanuel&#8221;), Reformation hymnody (&#8221;A Mighty Fortress&#8221;), Methodist revivalism (&#8221;O For a Thousand Tongues&#8221;), 19th century revivalism (&#8221;When We All Get to Heaven&#8221;), spirituals (&#8221;Lord, I Want to be a Christian&#8221;), and 20th century gospel (&#8221;I&#8217;d Rather Have Jesus&#8221;), among other things.  The arrival of new songs did not mean the automatic end of all of the old ones; &#8220;Great is Thy Faithfulness&#8221; did not relegate &#8220;Now Thank We All Our God&#8221; to obscurity.  These songs, while different in style, could exist in a common repertoire, be accompanied by a common instrumentation and be sung in a common setting.  Not everything from every era was retained, but there was no notion that the old songs HAD to be replaced en masse, simply because new ones had been written.  The mindset today is much different.</p>
<p>The saddest part of this whole scenario is the likelihood that the worship wars will never really end.  As long as the old must constantly give way to the new, people who actually value the old songs will clash with devotees of the &#8220;latest and greatest&#8221;.  We may not be fighting over hymns 20 years from now, but I suspect that we&#8217;ll have the same sort of ugliness over Chris Tomlin&#8217;s songs, which will seem quite dated by then.  The combatants and battlefield will be different, but the nastiness and lovelessness will be strangely familiar.</p>
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