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	<title>Comments on: The Annual &#8220;Mary&#8221; Discussion</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521754</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks everyone for your replies to my question, especially Eric -- I wasn&#039;t expecting anyone to do in-depth research on Greek conjunctions, but I do appreciate it. And it definitely shows how larger doctrinal constructs can turn or hinge on small details of interpretation. Though some might disagree, I think it&#039;s good for us believers to explore and consider interpretations of scripture that differ from the set answers that our particular religious traditions have handed down to us. I know you&#039;ve given my pea brain something to chew on for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks everyone for your replies to my question, especially Eric &#8212; I wasn&#8217;t expecting anyone to do in-depth research on Greek conjunctions, but I do appreciate it. And it definitely shows how larger doctrinal constructs can turn or hinge on small details of interpretation. Though some might disagree, I think it&#8217;s good for us believers to explore and consider interpretations of scripture that differ from the set answers that our particular religious traditions have handed down to us. I know you&#8217;ve given my pea brain something to chew on for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: trooper</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521751</link>
		<dc:creator>trooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Matthew&#039;s blog is very instructive for those people involved in this conversation.  I don&#039;t just perceive, I read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew&#8217;s blog is very instructive for those people involved in this conversation.  I don&#8217;t just perceive, I read.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnston</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521748</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Johnston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 04:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joel Hunter, 

I have a comment awaiting moderation - hence the [ taken from &quot; The Creed of Chalcedon: Historical Notes&quot;] sorry if that seemed confusing. 

1) I have looked over the Creed very briefly. It seems orthodox. 

2) Mary is the mother of Jesus who is also my Lord, correct. 

I am reformed in my theology but not a cessationist. A Calvinist if I may :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel Hunter, </p>
<p>I have a comment awaiting moderation &#8211; hence the [ taken from " The Creed of Chalcedon: Historical Notes"] sorry if that seemed confusing. </p>
<p>1) I have looked over the Creed very briefly. It seems orthodox. </p>
<p>2) Mary is the mother of Jesus who is also my Lord, correct. </p>
<p>I am reformed in my theology but not a cessationist. A Calvinist if I may <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: joel hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521747</link>
		<dc:creator>joel hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 04:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Matthew, I&#039;m trying to understand what common ground we might have. It&#039;s difficult to tell what you believe about some common doctrines. Above, I&#039;ve tried to ask you two questions, but perhaps you haven&#039;t seen them. Here they are again: (1) Do you recognize the ecumenical creed of Chalcedon as a statement of orthodox doctrine? (2) If we were to set aside the theological language of Theotokos for a moment, would you instead agree that Mary is the mother of your Lord?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew, I&#8217;m trying to understand what common ground we might have. It&#8217;s difficult to tell what you believe about some common doctrines. Above, I&#8217;ve tried to ask you two questions, but perhaps you haven&#8217;t seen them. Here they are again: (1) Do you recognize the ecumenical creed of Chalcedon as a statement of orthodox doctrine? (2) If we were to set aside the theological language of Theotokos for a moment, would you instead agree that Mary is the mother of your Lord?</p>
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		<title>By: EricW</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521745</link>
		<dc:creator>EricW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 04:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>(reposted with linking verse references removed to avoid &quot;moderation&quot;)

Interestingly, while BDAG (2000), the authoritative NT lexicon, says re: menoun
 
Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (also Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) Lk chapter 11 verse 28 (for negative s. Î¿á½ Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) and Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ (also Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ Î³Îµ), &lt;b&gt;particles used esp. in answers, to emphasize or correct&lt;/b&gt; (B-D-F Â§450, 4; Rob. 1151f), evenâ€”contrary to earlier Gk. usageâ€”at the beginning of a clause (Phryn. 342 Lob. [322 R.]) &lt;b&gt;rather, on the contrary&lt;/b&gt; (Soph., Aj. 1363; Pla., Crito 44b; X., Cyr. 8, 3, 37) &lt;b&gt;Lk chapter 11:28 v.l.&lt;/b&gt; Indeed Ro chapter 10:18. á¼€Î»Î»á½° Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ more than that Phil chapter 3 verse 8. Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ Ïƒá½º Ï„Î¯Ï‚ Îµá¼¶ â€¦ ; on the contrary, who are you â€¦ ? (or,  who in the world are you to [take issue with God]?) Ro chapter 9:20.â€”M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., &amp; Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (630). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

i.e., agreeing that its meaning in Luke chapter 11 verse 28 is &quot;rather, on the contrary,&quot; Frederick Danker&#039;s new (2009) Concise Greek-English Lexicon (Danker is the &quot;D&quot; in BDAG, the just-cited lexicon) is now saying that the words/particles mean &quot;particle used in response with emphatic feeling &lt;b&gt;indeed!&lt;/b&gt; (i.e., he lists no sense of &quot;rather, contrary to&quot;) and translates Luke chapter 11 verse 28 as: &quot;all the more blessed.&quot;

Dr. Ann Nyland, who has done a lot of work with the papyri, notes in her translation of this verse that the word is &quot;a compound particle to indicate agreement with preceding statement but virtually correcting it in the sense of, &quot;That may be true, but...&quot;&quot;

I. Howard Marshall&#039;s NIGTC Commentary on Luke goes with &quot;nay, rather&quot;

Darrell Bock in his Baker Exegetical Commentary on Luke writes:

The connective Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (menoun) has three possible senses (Fitzmyer 1985: 928): (1) an adversative meaning â€œon the contrary,â€ thus rejecting the previous remark (Manson 1949: 88; Marshall 1978: 482); (2) an affirmation meaning â€œindeedâ€ (as in Phil. chapter 3 verse 8); or (3) a correction meaning â€œyes, but ratherâ€ (Luce 1933: 216; Arndt 1956: 302; Plummer 1896: 306; Danker 1988: 235; Schneider 1977a: 269). The first meaning is not likely, since Luke has already affirmed such a blessing (Luke chapter 1 verses 42, 48) and elsewhere uses Î¿á½Ï‡Î¯, Î»Î­Î³Ï‰ á½‘Î¼á¿–Î½ (ouchi, legÅ hymin, no, I say to you) to express rejection of an idea (12:51; 13:3, 5; Fitzmyer 1985: 928). The sense is not complete affirmation either. Rather, the womanâ€™s remark is correct, but not exhaustive. The recent examples provided by Jesusâ€™ teaching about the Samaritan, Mary, and prayer are but three illustrations of what is expected of disciples (Schneider 1977a: 269). Blessing resides in obedient response, whether in care for others, in attention to Jesus, or in discourse with God.
Bock, D. L. (1996). Luke Volume 2: 9:51-24:53. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (1094â€“1095). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

The New American Commentary says:

11:28 Blessed rather. The meaning of the Greek term â€œratherâ€ (menoun) is unclear. It is used only four times in the NT, but it has three possible meanings: (1) adversativeâ€”â€œon the contrary,â€ or â€œno, but rather,â€ as in Rom chapter 9 verse 20; 10:18. This would repudiate the blessing of Jesusâ€™ mother by the woman in the crowd. (2) Affirmativeâ€”â€œindeed,â€ as in Phil chapter 3 verse 8. This would agree with the womanâ€™s blessing and identify Jesusâ€™ mother as an example of one who hears Godâ€™s word and obeys it. (3) Correctiveâ€”â€œyes, but rather.â€ This would show that although the blessing is correct, there is a greater blessing available to those who believe. Usually if Luke wanted to express the adversative meaning (1), he used ouchi and legÅ hymin (cf. Luke chapter 12:51; chapter 13:3, 5), and if he wanted to express the affirmative meaning (2), he used nai (cf. 7:26; 10:21; 11:51; 12:5). The third meaning is therefore more likely. An expanded translation of this sentence would read: â€œWhat you have said is true as far as it goes. But Maryâ€™s blessedness does not consist simply in her relationship with me, but in the fact that she heard the word of God and kept it, which is where true blessedness lies.â€74
Stein, R. H. (2001). Vol. 24: Luke (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (333). Nashville: Broadman &amp; Holman Publishers.

Thus it appears to me that I was premature in earlier insisting that it meant &quot;rather, contrary to.&quot; While this may be its meaning here, other resources (as I said, I had access to only a couple during the day) suggest other possibilities, including the defense of Mary&#039;s blessedness in Jesus&#039; remark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(reposted with linking verse references removed to avoid &#8220;moderation&#8221;)</p>
<p>Interestingly, while BDAG (2000), the authoritative NT lexicon, says re: menoun</p>
<p>Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (also Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) Lk chapter 11 verse 28 (for negative s. Î¿á½ Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) and Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ (also Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ Î³Îµ), <b>particles used esp. in answers, to emphasize or correct</b> (B-D-F Â§450, 4; Rob. 1151f), evenâ€”contrary to earlier Gk. usageâ€”at the beginning of a clause (Phryn. 342 Lob. [322 R.]) <b>rather, on the contrary</b> (Soph., Aj. 1363; Pla., Crito 44b; X., Cyr. 8, 3, 37) <b>Lk chapter 11:28 v.l.</b> Indeed Ro chapter 10:18. á¼€Î»Î»á½° Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ more than that Phil chapter 3 verse 8. Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ Ïƒá½º Ï„Î¯Ï‚ Îµá¼¶ â€¦ ; on the contrary, who are you â€¦ ? (or,  who in the world are you to [take issue with God]?) Ro chapter 9:20.â€”M-M.<br />
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., &amp; Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (630). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.</p>
<p>i.e., agreeing that its meaning in Luke chapter 11 verse 28 is &#8220;rather, on the contrary,&#8221; Frederick Danker&#8217;s new (2009) Concise Greek-English Lexicon (Danker is the &#8220;D&#8221; in BDAG, the just-cited lexicon) is now saying that the words/particles mean &#8220;particle used in response with emphatic feeling <b>indeed!</b> (i.e., he lists no sense of &#8220;rather, contrary to&#8221;) and translates Luke chapter 11 verse 28 as: &#8220;all the more blessed.&#8221;</p>
<p>Dr. Ann Nyland, who has done a lot of work with the papyri, notes in her translation of this verse that the word is &#8220;a compound particle to indicate agreement with preceding statement but virtually correcting it in the sense of, &#8220;That may be true, but&#8230;&#8221;"</p>
<p>I. Howard Marshall&#8217;s NIGTC Commentary on Luke goes with &#8220;nay, rather&#8221;</p>
<p>Darrell Bock in his Baker Exegetical Commentary on Luke writes:</p>
<p>The connective Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (menoun) has three possible senses (Fitzmyer 1985: 928): (1) an adversative meaning â€œon the contrary,â€ thus rejecting the previous remark (Manson 1949: 88; Marshall 1978: 482); (2) an affirmation meaning â€œindeedâ€ (as in Phil. chapter 3 verse 8); or (3) a correction meaning â€œyes, but ratherâ€ (Luce 1933: 216; Arndt 1956: 302; Plummer 1896: 306; Danker 1988: 235; Schneider 1977a: 269). The first meaning is not likely, since Luke has already affirmed such a blessing (Luke chapter 1 verses 42, 48) and elsewhere uses Î¿á½Ï‡Î¯, Î»Î­Î³Ï‰ á½‘Î¼á¿–Î½ (ouchi, legÅ hymin, no, I say to you) to express rejection of an idea (12:51; 13:3, 5; Fitzmyer 1985: 928). The sense is not complete affirmation either. Rather, the womanâ€™s remark is correct, but not exhaustive. The recent examples provided by Jesusâ€™ teaching about the Samaritan, Mary, and prayer are but three illustrations of what is expected of disciples (Schneider 1977a: 269). Blessing resides in obedient response, whether in care for others, in attention to Jesus, or in discourse with God.<br />
Bock, D. L. (1996). Luke Volume 2: 9:51-24:53. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (1094â€“1095). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.</p>
<p>The New American Commentary says:</p>
<p>11:28 Blessed rather. The meaning of the Greek term â€œratherâ€ (menoun) is unclear. It is used only four times in the NT, but it has three possible meanings: (1) adversativeâ€”â€œon the contrary,â€ or â€œno, but rather,â€ as in Rom chapter 9 verse 20; 10:18. This would repudiate the blessing of Jesusâ€™ mother by the woman in the crowd. (2) Affirmativeâ€”â€œindeed,â€ as in Phil chapter 3 verse 8. This would agree with the womanâ€™s blessing and identify Jesusâ€™ mother as an example of one who hears Godâ€™s word and obeys it. (3) Correctiveâ€”â€œyes, but rather.â€ This would show that although the blessing is correct, there is a greater blessing available to those who believe. Usually if Luke wanted to express the adversative meaning (1), he used ouchi and legÅ hymin (cf. Luke chapter 12:51; chapter 13:3, 5), and if he wanted to express the affirmative meaning (2), he used nai (cf. 7:26; 10:21; 11:51; 12:5). The third meaning is therefore more likely. An expanded translation of this sentence would read: â€œWhat you have said is true as far as it goes. But Maryâ€™s blessedness does not consist simply in her relationship with me, but in the fact that she heard the word of God and kept it, which is where true blessedness lies.â€74<br />
Stein, R. H. (2001). Vol. 24: Luke (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (333). Nashville: Broadman &amp; Holman Publishers.</p>
<p>Thus it appears to me that I was premature in earlier insisting that it meant &#8220;rather, contrary to.&#8221; While this may be its meaning here, other resources (as I said, I had access to only a couple during the day) suggest other possibilities, including the defense of Mary&#8217;s blessedness in Jesus&#8217; remark.</p>
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		<title>By: EricW</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521744</link>
		<dc:creator>EricW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 04:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5273#comment-521744</guid>
		<description>Interestingly, while BDAG (2000), the authoritative NT lexicon, says re: menoun
 
Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (also Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) Lk 11:28 (for negative s. Î¿á½ Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) and Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ (also Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ Î³Îµ), &lt;b&gt;particles used esp. in answers, to emphasize or correct&lt;/b&gt; (B-D-F Â§450, 4; Rob. 1151f), evenâ€”contrary to earlier Gk. usageâ€”at the beginning of a clause (Phryn. 342 Lob. [322 R.]) &lt;b&gt;rather, on the contrary&lt;/b&gt; (Soph., Aj. 1363; Pla., Crito 44b; X., Cyr. 8, 3, 37) &lt;b&gt;Lk chapter 11:28 v.l.&lt;/b&gt; Indeed Ro chapter 10:18. á¼€Î»Î»á½° Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ more than that Phil 3:8. Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ Ïƒá½º Ï„Î¯Ï‚ Îµá¼¶ â€¦ ; on the contrary, who are you â€¦ ? (or,  who in the world are you to [take issue with God]?) Ro chapter 9:20.â€”M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., &amp; Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (630). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

i.e., agreeing that its meaning in Luke chapter 11 verse 28 is &quot;rather, on the contrary,&quot; Frederick Danker&#039;s new (2009) Concise Greek-English Lexicon (Danker is the &quot;D&quot; in BDAG, the just-cited lexicon) is now saying that the words/particles mean &quot;particle used in response with emphatic feeling &lt;b&gt;indeed!&lt;/b&gt; (i.e., he lists no sense of &quot;rather, contrary to&quot;) and translates Luke chapter 11 verse 28 as: &quot;all the more blessed.&quot;

Dr. Ann Nyland, who has done a lot of work with the papyri, notes in her translation of this verse that the word is &quot;a compound particle to indicate agreement with preceding statement but virtually correcting it in the sense of, &quot;That may be true, but...&quot;&quot;

I. Howard Marshall&#039;s NIGTC Commentary on Luke goes with &quot;nay, rather&quot;

Darrell Bock in his Baker Exegetical Commentary on Luke writes:

The connective Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (menoun) has three possible senses (Fitzmyer 1985: 928): (1) an adversative meaning â€œon the contrary,â€ thus rejecting the previous remark (Manson 1949: 88; Marshall 1978: 482); (2) an affirmation meaning â€œindeedâ€ (as in Phil. chapter 3 verse 8); or (3) a correction meaning â€œyes, but ratherâ€ (Luce 1933: 216; Arndt 1956: 302; Plummer 1896: 306; Danker 1988: 235; Schneider 1977a: 269). The first meaning is not likely, since Luke has already affirmed such a blessing (Luke chapter 1 verses 42, 48) and elsewhere uses Î¿á½Ï‡Î¯, Î»Î­Î³Ï‰ á½‘Î¼á¿–Î½ (ouchi, legÅ hymin, no, I say to you) to express rejection of an idea (12:51; 13:3, 5; Fitzmyer 1985: 928). The sense is not complete affirmation either. Rather, the womanâ€™s remark is correct, but not exhaustive. The recent examples provided by Jesusâ€™ teaching about the Samaritan, Mary, and prayer are but three illustrations of what is expected of disciples (Schneider 1977a: 269). Blessing resides in obedient response, whether in care for others, in attention to Jesus, or in discourse with God.
Bock, D. L. (1996). Luke Volume 2: 9:51-24:53. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (1094â€“1095). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

The New American Commentary says:

11:28 Blessed rather. The meaning of the Greek term â€œratherâ€ (menoun) is unclear. It is used only four times in the NT, but it has three possible meanings: (1) adversativeâ€”â€œon the contrary,â€ or â€œno, but rather,â€ as in Rom 9:20; 10:18. This would repudiate the blessing of Jesusâ€™ mother by the woman in the crowd. (2) Affirmativeâ€”â€œindeed,â€ as in Phil chapter 3 verse 8. This would agree with the womanâ€™s blessing and identify Jesusâ€™ mother as an example of one who hears Godâ€™s word and obeys it. (3) Correctiveâ€”â€œyes, but rather.â€ This would show that although the blessing is correct, there is a greater blessing available to those who believe. Usually if Luke wanted to express the adversative meaning (1), he used ouchi and legÅ hymin (cf. Luke chapter 12:51; chapter 13:3, 5), and if he wanted to express the affirmative meaning (2), he used nai (cf. 7:26; 10:21; 11:51; 12:5). The third meaning is therefore more likely. An expanded translation of this sentence would read: â€œWhat you have said is true as far as it goes. But Maryâ€™s blessedness does not consist simply in her relationship with me, but in the fact that she heard the word of God and kept it, which is where true blessedness lies.â€74
Stein, R. H. (2001). Vol. 24: Luke (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (333). Nashville: Broadman &amp; Holman Publishers.

Thus it appears to me that I was premature in earlier insisting that it meant &quot;rather, contrary to.&quot; While this may be its meaning here, other resources (as I said, I had access to only a couple during the day) suggest other possibilities, including the defense of Mary&#039;s blessedness in Jesus&#039; remark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly, while BDAG (2000), the authoritative NT lexicon, says re: menoun</p>
<p>Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (also Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) Lk 11:28 (for negative s. Î¿á½ Î¼á½²Î½ Î¿á½–Î½) and Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ (also Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ Î³Îµ), <b>particles used esp. in answers, to emphasize or correct</b> (B-D-F Â§450, 4; Rob. 1151f), evenâ€”contrary to earlier Gk. usageâ€”at the beginning of a clause (Phryn. 342 Lob. [322 R.]) <b>rather, on the contrary</b> (Soph., Aj. 1363; Pla., Crito 44b; X., Cyr. 8, 3, 37) <b>Lk chapter 11:28 v.l.</b> Indeed Ro chapter 10:18. á¼€Î»Î»á½° Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ more than that Phil 3:8. Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½Î³Îµ Ïƒá½º Ï„Î¯Ï‚ Îµá¼¶ â€¦ ; on the contrary, who are you â€¦ ? (or,  who in the world are you to [take issue with God]?) Ro chapter 9:20.â€”M-M.<br />
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., &amp; Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (630). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.</p>
<p>i.e., agreeing that its meaning in Luke chapter 11 verse 28 is &#8220;rather, on the contrary,&#8221; Frederick Danker&#8217;s new (2009) Concise Greek-English Lexicon (Danker is the &#8220;D&#8221; in BDAG, the just-cited lexicon) is now saying that the words/particles mean &#8220;particle used in response with emphatic feeling <b>indeed!</b> (i.e., he lists no sense of &#8220;rather, contrary to&#8221;) and translates Luke chapter 11 verse 28 as: &#8220;all the more blessed.&#8221;</p>
<p>Dr. Ann Nyland, who has done a lot of work with the papyri, notes in her translation of this verse that the word is &#8220;a compound particle to indicate agreement with preceding statement but virtually correcting it in the sense of, &#8220;That may be true, but&#8230;&#8221;"</p>
<p>I. Howard Marshall&#8217;s NIGTC Commentary on Luke goes with &#8220;nay, rather&#8221;</p>
<p>Darrell Bock in his Baker Exegetical Commentary on Luke writes:</p>
<p>The connective Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿á¿¦Î½ (menoun) has three possible senses (Fitzmyer 1985: 928): (1) an adversative meaning â€œon the contrary,â€ thus rejecting the previous remark (Manson 1949: 88; Marshall 1978: 482); (2) an affirmation meaning â€œindeedâ€ (as in Phil. chapter 3 verse 8); or (3) a correction meaning â€œyes, but ratherâ€ (Luce 1933: 216; Arndt 1956: 302; Plummer 1896: 306; Danker 1988: 235; Schneider 1977a: 269). The first meaning is not likely, since Luke has already affirmed such a blessing (Luke chapter 1 verses 42, 48) and elsewhere uses Î¿á½Ï‡Î¯, Î»Î­Î³Ï‰ á½‘Î¼á¿–Î½ (ouchi, legÅ hymin, no, I say to you) to express rejection of an idea (12:51; 13:3, 5; Fitzmyer 1985: 928). The sense is not complete affirmation either. Rather, the womanâ€™s remark is correct, but not exhaustive. The recent examples provided by Jesusâ€™ teaching about the Samaritan, Mary, and prayer are but three illustrations of what is expected of disciples (Schneider 1977a: 269). Blessing resides in obedient response, whether in care for others, in attention to Jesus, or in discourse with God.<br />
Bock, D. L. (1996). Luke Volume 2: 9:51-24:53. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (1094â€“1095). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.</p>
<p>The New American Commentary says:</p>
<p>11:28 Blessed rather. The meaning of the Greek term â€œratherâ€ (menoun) is unclear. It is used only four times in the NT, but it has three possible meanings: (1) adversativeâ€”â€œon the contrary,â€ or â€œno, but rather,â€ as in Rom 9:20; 10:18. This would repudiate the blessing of Jesusâ€™ mother by the woman in the crowd. (2) Affirmativeâ€”â€œindeed,â€ as in Phil chapter 3 verse 8. This would agree with the womanâ€™s blessing and identify Jesusâ€™ mother as an example of one who hears Godâ€™s word and obeys it. (3) Correctiveâ€”â€œyes, but rather.â€ This would show that although the blessing is correct, there is a greater blessing available to those who believe. Usually if Luke wanted to express the adversative meaning (1), he used ouchi and legÅ hymin (cf. Luke chapter 12:51; chapter 13:3, 5), and if he wanted to express the affirmative meaning (2), he used nai (cf. 7:26; 10:21; 11:51; 12:5). The third meaning is therefore more likely. An expanded translation of this sentence would read: â€œWhat you have said is true as far as it goes. But Maryâ€™s blessedness does not consist simply in her relationship with me, but in the fact that she heard the word of God and kept it, which is where true blessedness lies.â€74<br />
Stein, R. H. (2001). Vol. 24: Luke (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (333). Nashville: Broadman &amp; Holman Publishers.</p>
<p>Thus it appears to me that I was premature in earlier insisting that it meant &#8220;rather, contrary to.&#8221; While this may be its meaning here, other resources (as I said, I had access to only a couple during the day) suggest other possibilities, including the defense of Mary&#8217;s blessedness in Jesus&#8217; remark.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnston</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521739</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Johnston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5273#comment-521739</guid>
		<description>With all due respect Mike, we are not all on the same team. 
These words for Dr. R. C Sproul should suffice;

&quot;At the moment the Roman Catholic Church condemned the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, she denied the gospel and ceased to be a legitimate church, regardless of all the rest of her affirmations of Christian orthodoxy. To embrace her as an authentic church while she continues to repudiate the biblical doctrine of salvation is a fatal attribution.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect Mike, we are not all on the same team.<br />
These words for Dr. R. C Sproul should suffice;</p>
<p>&#8220;At the moment the Roman Catholic Church condemned the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, she denied the gospel and ceased to be a legitimate church, regardless of all the rest of her affirmations of Christian orthodoxy. To embrace her as an authentic church while she continues to repudiate the biblical doctrine of salvation is a fatal attribution.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnston</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521738</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Johnston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5273#comment-521738</guid>
		<description>[taken from; &quot;The Creed of Chalcedon: Historical Notes&quot;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[taken from; "The Creed of Chalcedon: Historical Notes"]</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnston</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521737</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Johnston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5273#comment-521737</guid>
		<description>The creed also uses the term &quot;Mother of God&quot; concerning the Virgin Mary. In the creed itself it should be noted the term is directly limited by the words &quot;according to the human nature. &quot; The creed does not teach that Mary is the mother of the divine nature. The Creed likewise explicitly teaches that the person of the Son of God is &quot;begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead.&quot; It is the human nature which the Son of God assumed which is alone ascribed unto Mary from whom, after the flesh, the Savior was descended and born.

The term itself, while it has given rise to Mary worship in both the Eastern church and western Romanism, has also a specific purpose in the creed. Against the error of Nestorius who taught two distinct persons, a human and divine, it was necessary to maintain that it was truly the Son of God united to the human nature who was born of Mary. Mary did therefore carry in her womb the Son of God united to the human nature, and in that sense only may be said to be the mother of God, when she brought forth her first born son after the flesh and laid him in a manger, Luke 2:7.

The Son of God did not come upon the man Jesus as a distinct human person. Nor did the Son of God leave Jesus on the cross in His suffering and death. Both of these errors have repeatedly troubled the Christian church and are a denial of Jesus Christ as the true Savior. It belongs to certain Gnostic heresies, already found in the early church, with which John contends in I John 4:1-4. The denial of the true incarnation of the Son of God in the human nature is according to I John 4:3 of the spirit of Antichrist. This corrupt error, in a garbled form from the Nestorian sect, has also made its way into the Koran. It is not authentic Christian doctrine.

At the same time the perversion of the role of Mary which developed in both East and West justly gives rise to reservations about this expression however it is limited. It is, in part, for this reason that the creed is not named in the Confession of Faith. The sound doctrine of the creed is taken up in the Confession of Faith, rather than the creed itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The creed also uses the term &#8220;Mother of God&#8221; concerning the Virgin Mary. In the creed itself it should be noted the term is directly limited by the words &#8220;according to the human nature. &#8221; The creed does not teach that Mary is the mother of the divine nature. The Creed likewise explicitly teaches that the person of the Son of God is &#8220;begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead.&#8221; It is the human nature which the Son of God assumed which is alone ascribed unto Mary from whom, after the flesh, the Savior was descended and born.</p>
<p>The term itself, while it has given rise to Mary worship in both the Eastern church and western Romanism, has also a specific purpose in the creed. Against the error of Nestorius who taught two distinct persons, a human and divine, it was necessary to maintain that it was truly the Son of God united to the human nature who was born of Mary. Mary did therefore carry in her womb the Son of God united to the human nature, and in that sense only may be said to be the mother of God, when she brought forth her first born son after the flesh and laid him in a manger, Luke 2:7.</p>
<p>The Son of God did not come upon the man Jesus as a distinct human person. Nor did the Son of God leave Jesus on the cross in His suffering and death. Both of these errors have repeatedly troubled the Christian church and are a denial of Jesus Christ as the true Savior. It belongs to certain Gnostic heresies, already found in the early church, with which John contends in I John 4:1-4. The denial of the true incarnation of the Son of God in the human nature is according to I John 4:3 of the spirit of Antichrist. This corrupt error, in a garbled form from the Nestorian sect, has also made its way into the Koran. It is not authentic Christian doctrine.</p>
<p>At the same time the perversion of the role of Mary which developed in both East and West justly gives rise to reservations about this expression however it is limited. It is, in part, for this reason that the creed is not named in the Confession of Faith. The sound doctrine of the creed is taken up in the Confession of Faith, rather than the creed itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-annual-%e2%80%9cmary%e2%80%9d-discussion/comment-page-1#comment-521732</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=5273#comment-521732</guid>
		<description>This year, for the first time, I&#039;ve been following the Christian Year. For the first time the Christmas story has been coming alive. Recently I watched the movie, &quot;The Nativity Story&quot;, my thinking was so radically changed as I realized what Mary endured carrying Jesus. The beauty of Mary and the birth of Jesus. I have begun to understand why the Orthodox faith calls her the Mother of God and holds her is such high esteem. I wish we protestants could talk about Mary openly and learn to enjoy the Christmas season like so many of our Orthodox brethren. &quot;From now on all generations will call me blessed.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This year, for the first time, I&#8217;ve been following the Christian Year. For the first time the Christmas story has been coming alive. Recently I watched the movie, &#8220;The Nativity Story&#8221;, my thinking was so radically changed as I realized what Mary endured carrying Jesus. The beauty of Mary and the birth of Jesus. I have begun to understand why the Orthodox faith calls her the Mother of God and holds her is such high esteem. I wish we protestants could talk about Mary openly and learn to enjoy the Christmas season like so many of our Orthodox brethren. &#8220;From now on all generations will call me blessed.&#8221;</p>
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