I agree fully when you state, “I do not believe the church dispenses salvation via baptism or sacraments.” However, that is not what either the so called “Apostles” creed nor the “Nicene” creed state. In these creeds, “I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins (Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum ) is not referring to the baptism of the Spirit, but to water baptism, especially in regards to its efficacy in relation to the administrators of the rite (The faithful versus the apostate), as the result of the Arian heresy. If water baptism was the intended meaning of the original statement, and I believe it was, than I must confess that I do not agree with the creed at this point.

K. W. Leslie

In regards to the term, “Catholic”. While it does not mean Roman Catholic in the original Latin draft, nor is that its first meaning in the contemporary dictionary, that is essentially what it signifies to the average contemporary reader in modern English. “Universal” would therefore be a better term to use.
On the other hand, when you say “If you don’t have another Christian around to correct you when you go astray,” … “you’re gonna wind up starting a cult.”, I agree with you. We, and not only preachers, elders or men, must keep one another in check as to whether we are of the faith.

Michael

Now back to the “which church” thing.
In the New Testament, the term church/Ekklesia is used in three, possibly four ways;
1) The universal, Spiritual body of believers.
2) The local representatives of the universal, Spiritual body of believers.
3) The local assembly of the Spiritual body of believers.
4) The local assembling of the physical church.
Following the first century, the emphasis slowly shifted to the physical church. With that shift of emphasis, the status of physical baptism traded places with Spiritual baptism. Since the Roman-Orthodox split, and especially since the Reformation, we have added denominations to this list.
In my questions regarding “which church”, I never was referring to denominations, but rather to the Spiritual versus the physical, the local versus the universal.

When I taught on the Creed I wound up with an hourlong discussion on how “catholic” doesn’t mean “Roman Catholic Church.” One girl in my class would absolutely not say the creed unless we changed it to a synonym like “universal.” I told her she needed to resolve her anti-Catholic issues elsewhere. It’s a perfectly good word.

I’ve been talking with my roommate lately about why we go to church. He leans heavily towards the go-it-alone direction. (It’s what sort of Buddhist he was; all that self-propelled meditation is sorta leaking into his Christianity.) So I gave him the usual list of reasons, but added this one: “If you don’t have another Christian around to correct you when you go astray,” I pointed out, “you’re gonna wind up starting a cult.”

(Or joining one.)

As an evangelical, I believe the church proclaims, teaches and bears witness to Christ and his salvation.

I do not believe the church dispenses salvation via baptism or sacraments.

Faith- whether exercised in a sacramental context or not- must ultimately rest on Christ alone.

I don’t think the two parent analogy is a very good one where salvation is concerned. Christian nurture, sanctification, growth, discipline….yes. But a clear distinction is made for me as an evangelical between a saving Christ and a church that proclaims a saving Christ.

Best I can do right now.

Just one aside. The question “Which church?” is an obsession that I have no desire to have. With all due respect, it has clearly driven many people crazy. Jesus saves. The church does not. You’d never guess that listening to the advocates of team sport Christianity.

I have major problems with some of your ecclesiology as I understand it. For instance, when you state;

1) “While most churches are true churches…”,
To WHICH CHURCH are you referring; to the institution, the denomination, the local assembly, the building or what?
A high percentage of the churches with which I am familiar are empty. Many others, as in Europe, have become the centers for the arts etc. A high percentage of those still open as churches are either apostate in belief, steeped in dead tradition, or deviant and dead in practice.

2) “If you don’t join a church you are telling Jesus that he isn’t worth obeying…”.
Again, WHICH CHURCH are you talking about, the institution or the fellowship? One can be part of a fellowship without endorsing and becoming part of the institution.

3) “…but if someone treats the church- the “bride” and “body” of Jesus- with contempt, I don’t think there is any assurance at all that they are a Christian.”
Again, WHICH CHURCH?

4) “While the church doesn’t save, there is no salvation outside of the Jesus the church preaches and offers to you…”
Many churches with which I am familiar do not teach the historical Jesus

5) “…If you love me, love the church.”
Where in Scripture do I find such a quote, and if it is there in some form or another, is it referring to the institution or the True Believers?

Onetime we used the creed in a worship service without knowing that many of the attenders really didn’t have any idea of what the creed was and about 10 people walked out. It ended up good because I had to teach a class on the apostles creed that really helped alot of people and we started having requests to incorporate it more often in our services.

I dig your explanations, they seem great.