Praise God for a man who has no guile about his conditions, because God seeks His righteousness to be fufilled in us by Himself, not our own power, apart from feelings, which are the result of faith, in and that comes from God’s Word.

withchrist.org

You might not read this, but I know these truths will help you immensley, becasue they did me. If you are born-again, then you WILL grow through what I want to share with you in these websites, (this is not one-natureism), and if not(which is unlikely? but betwen you and God) this will open your eyes to the Fulness of Christ. Just do not be like the Book of Hebrews and turn away!

Here is what I see in the Scripture in your case, BUT REMEMBER LOOK AT THESE WEBSITES!!

John 8:8-11

“…He lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you (or without that specific sin),
let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience (God’s Law – Rom 2:15-16), went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[This comment has been edited. The edited paragraphs were intended for me, and I read them.]

I’d like to thank those of you who offered up your own honest hearts on the matter. It means a great deal to me. I can assure you, I’ll spend alot of time following up these leads.

I have spoken with dozens of learned and Christ-commited lay and professional brothers and sisters about this issue. I have even been to formal psychological counciling with the hope that it was some “emotional” and not “theological” problem.

All for not. I suspect that’s because there is no answer. I can only think that God intends there to be no answer. It’s possible that God holds me (and others like me) close to Him by way of the unanswerable. He may need me broken in this way. I can only hope that this serves His plans.

I can’t remember now exactly there in the scriptures I remember this, but someone (I suspect it might be Job only because of the themes, but I don’t remember) says basically, even if God ultimately destroys Him he’s still going to follow God.

I suppose that’s me.

And yet, scripture also is clear that persistent obvious, willful disobedience indicates that a person is not part of the genuine community of faith. I think this relates to an internal condition more than to the external acts themselves. A person who has genuine faith in Jesus, over the arc of his or her life, has a teleology towards becoming more like Jesus. Someone who has no interest at all in become like Jesus — including perhaps resisting some activity that clearly violates the moral law — can’t be called a follower of Jesus. The point of these parts of scripture, I’m convinced, aren’t to help us to decide who’s “out” and who’s “in,” but rather are there to admonish each person individually and churches collectively to examine whether they are heading in the right direction.

BTW, C.S. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters provide some deep and very helpful insights on these questions.

Ddickens, you seem agonized by your situation, which seems to suggest some genuine interest in growing as a follower of Jesus. I’d echo the comments here that you need to find help from a pastor or Christian counselor. You’re not alone. Many, many, many Christians today struggle with sinful addictions, often to internet porn. The spiritual and psychological aspects of this kind of addiction are complex and don’t vanish overnight. Perhaps your faith in Jesus is genuine and needs to be nourished, or perhaps you need to make that first turn on the road towards home. Either way, finding an honest, mature conversation partner is key.

That said …

“There’s a real question here. One that the tortured soul trapped in a life of sin needs to have explained.”

It is a problem that Paul himself had …

“…I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. … 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. ”

(Romans 7:15, 17-21).

Paul himself was trapped in sins! So does that mean he wasn’t saved?

On the contrary, just a few verse later Paul writes that “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”.

The answer, then, for those trapped in sin (like myself) is:

1) Believe that Jesus Christ has died for those sins.
2) Trust him.
3) Make it our lifelong work to crucify that old man who is so addicted to sin. Of course, we’re going to lose a lot. But the mere fact that we fight at all means something.

“When I read the scriptures I hear of the regenerating (please don’t go Christianese on me here, I mean regenerating like lay people mean) power of being “born again” into the Spirit.”

Let me read some verses to you:

” 31He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches.”
33He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[b] of flour until it worked all through the dough.” ” (Matthew 13:31-33).

One valid interpretation of these verses (there may be others) is that this is how the Kingdom works in a person’s life. It starts out as a tiny, tiny seed that in the course of time grows to impact every aspect of their waking lives.

The church tends to oversell testimonies of people who have dramatic, life-changing conversions. But there are a lot more (like mine) that aren’t nearly so impressive. They start quietly, no fireworks, no big changes, no great surprises. But bit by bit over the years change happens. It doesn’t make a good testimony story, but I suspect it’s far more common than you might expect.

“There are supposed to be Spiritual Gifts, an indwelling of Christ, a new heart, and a thousand other synonyms both metaphorical and metaphysical.”

And so there will be. But it takes time for these things to manifest sometimes. Be patient.

“Bottom line is, getting saved is supposed to change you. And that change is pointed to as evidence of getting saved.”
True.

“But for me there is no such evidence.”
Would everyone who knew you say that? And are you truly as bad as you would be, say, if you were an out-an-out infidel?

I’m a screwup too. But I know God is working in my life because I’m not in the pen for murder. Because I’ve had to learn to forgive things instead of take vengence for them. Not much in the way of evidence, really — lots of unbelievers manage that without Jesus — but in my case, it’s a definite step up.

“But apparently my commitment isn’t as honest as I’d portray it.”

No one’s commitment is as honest as they portray it.

” I have sins (habitual) aplenty.”
So do I. So do most people. If you read some of the services in the Book of Common Prayer, confession of habitual sin is part of the rite for everyone.

“those who know me well know that I struggle daily with impossible walls of sin that still hold me prisoner, in a prison Christ was supposed to free me from.”

Paul struggled too. Being “set free” doesn’t mean we achieve perfection here and now. I think Mike himself described the Christian life as one constant struggle against sin — one much more like Omaha Beach than like a victory parade.

Christ may have set *you* free — in which case, as in the Romans 7 verse above, it is no longer you doing it, but the sin in you. For there is a *you* that doesn’t want to sin, and is free from it … that freedom just hasn’t been extended to your entire physical being. Because the rest of you is still captive to the old man. Crucifying that old man and making tangible the freedom you already have is a great part of the Christian walk.

“I don’t feel the freedom of Christ at all.”

It’s a matter of belief, not a matter of emotion.

“I await the promise of salvation, because I have not yet seen it.”

“Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. ” (Romans 8:23-25).

“But I know I’m not the only one. There are many others who worry that if they come near the Holy City at all it will be in the slums outside the gate.”

I am one of those. Normally, anyway. Right now I’m going through a period where I’m not worried about it. And the reason for it is very simple … who is your trust in? Jesus? Or in yourself?

“I’m fine with that if it’s my fate,”

Oh, horse potatoes. If you were “fine” with it you wouldn’t be agonizing over it.

“I clearly love my sin more than God. The evidence is overwhelming, if I’m willing to confront it.”

Again, horse potatoes. If you really loved your sin more than God, you wouldn’t be talking like this. You’d have put God behind your back and not worried about it.

” But I am powerless to stand against my sin and God has not seen fit to take it from me.”

Walk with him. It took me TWELVE YEARS to kick a particularly besetting sin and it still isn’t fully beat.

If God hasn’t taken the sin from you, it’s because it’s his will you fight it in his power. If you aren’t winning, then clearly you have some things to learn. You may discover in the end you *do* have the power to overcome this — but it won’t be done in a day, and it may not be done without help.

But win or lose this battle, you may discover that you’ve conquered one sin only to have two more spring up to take it’s place. We’re not going to be done with sin while we’re in this earth. We don’t prematurely claim “victory”, and we don’t stop fighting. We just remain faithful to our calling, even when we lose.

So … let me see if I can sum this up … you’ve prayed the prayer, and you believe that God hates you because you aren’t instantly free of your sins, prophesying, healing the sick, and otherwise walking around with this shining halo around your person?

All I can say is, somewhere along the line someone’s sold you a bill of goods as to what to expect. Sometimes God works that way, but a lot of other times he’s a fan of the slow, progressive work.

All these things will come. But he has a lifetime to bring them about in your life. The trick is to be patient and trust him and not bail out because the “victorious life” claptrap was a bill of goods.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

>You might not know the answer, but then it is appropriate to say so instead of a post with alot of verbal handwaving.

Let me say this very clearly: Anyone struggling as you are struggling needs to find a real human being, an actual church community and face-to-face relationships in order to talk about this matter. I am not, by writing this, volunteering to be a pastoral counselor to anyone. I’ve said that dozens, maybe a hundred or more, times to people who want internet posts to function in a counseling or pastoral relationship. I simply do not believe internet relationships function at that level, and I don’t want to deceive you into thinking I am supplying answers.

I have no further comment. I don’t want to offend. Sorry if I have done so.

I know it is trite but I have always held to the idea that (if it really is possible to ‘lose’ salvation) “it is impossible…” to return only when one becomes indifferent (i.e. if you are at all worried about it then you can’t have gone too far). That may be grossly over-simplifying but I think there is some truth and assurance to be found there.

Sir, I would direct you to this verse in 1 John —

“9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

Also this verse in Luke ..
“If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”" (Luke 17:4).

God commands us to forgive that way because that is the way he has forgiven us.

I urge you to remember one thing whenever you see the Bible uses the word “Impossible” — this one verse ….

“37For nothing is impossible with God.” (Luke 1:37).

So I encourage you to simply not worry about “unforgivable sins” or “impossible to be brought back” or what not — just confess your sins, repent, and follow him. And fail again and again, yes, but get up each time and try again.

Never despair.

———
Now to the main article …

My personal read is that a person who did nothing more than mumble a five-sentence prayer and then went back to their original way of life is not saved; instead, they have merely added hypocrisy to their earlier sinful condition.

Real faith — saving faith — is a faith of the heart. A faith that stops at the sinner’s prayer may very well be a faith merely of the lips. Which is why James is so insistent that “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

Christians are saved by faith alone. But this faith has to be a real faith and not merely a hypocritical one where we honor him merely with our lips. The acid test of a real faith vs. a hypocritical one is that a real faith really does follow God, really does it’s best to obey the commands of 1 John 3:23 – to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another. A hypocritical faith doesn’t do this.

Doesn’t mean I can judge a person as “saved” or not. Works are symptoms. But if a person has no symptoms whatsoever … that person should seriously consider whether his faith is genuine. And if it isn’t, to seek a real faith, from which works will flow naturally.

Respectfully,

Brain P.

Somewhere people like me have misunderstood the scripture. Where we’ve misunderstood it is terribly important. I don’t know what I’ve misunderstood, but right now there is paradox in my faith.

When I read the scriptures I hear of the regenerating (please don’t go Christianese on me here, I mean regenerating like lay people mean) power of being “born again” into the Spirit. There are supposed to be Spiritual Gifts, an indwelling of Christ, a new heart, and a thousand other synonyms both metaphorical and metaphysical.

Bottom line is, getting saved is supposed to change you. And that change is pointed to as evidence of getting saved.

But for me there is no such evidence. In fact, I’m far worse a man than I was a boy (I was baptised at a very mature 11). I have held firm to that commitment. Though I’ve certainly wrestled with God like Jacob, I’ve never walked away from my faith or my honest commitment to His glory.

But apparently my commitment isn’t as honest as I’d portray it. I have sins (habitual) aplenty. I am regarded as a pious and God loving man by man who know me, but those who know me well know that I struggle daily with impossible walls of sin that still hold me prisoner, in a prison Christ was supposed to free me from.

I don’t feel the freedom of Christ at all. My father was a concervative, but grace-filled man of God. He had a phrase, “struggle is just delaying obediance.” I await the promise of salvation, because I have not yet seen it.

I’m not going to confess my sins in this forum. The magnatude of them or their specificly addicting nature isn’t important. But I know I’m not the only one. There are many others who worry that if they come near the Holy City at all it will be in the slums outside the gate.

I’m fine with that if it’s my fate, I trust in the righteous judgement of God. I’ll be glad if I can only see the glow of that city over the horizon. Not to be too “Prodigal Son” here, but I wouldn’t mind being the lowest servant in His house.

I’m more concerned for those who think they’ve become righteous in Christ, but are clearly not. At least, I’m able to admit that sins cripples my life. I see so many at my church and in the larger body of Christ around the world that dismiss their unrepentant sin. Or worse, they hide it in shame and use their guilt as a weapon to lash out at other children of God.

But my fears for them aside. I have the knowledge of and a love for Christ my Lord (in so far as I guess a human can) but I have never experienced a regeneration, and without it, I can only assume that I am a very good liar especially to myself.

I clearly love my sin more than God. The evidence is overwhelming, if I’m willing to confront it. But I am powerless to stand against my sin and God has not seen fit to take it from me.

It’s really unfortunate that I don’t believe in a Calvinist God, because then I could hold out hope that God might just warp my will against my will so that I could be something worthy of His love. As it is, my will is free and freely seeks death.