September 18, 2014

Saturday Ramblings 1.28.12

Your Rambler is in a better mood today. Oh, the Synonymous Rambler and I have been going round and round again, and yes, it was all my fault again (I think), but otherwise it has been a better week. Spring is in the air here in Tulsa (along with mold and polen), which means baseball can’t be far behind. And with baseball on the horizon, how can I be in a bad mood? So let’s let bygones be bygones and get to rambling, shall we?

Maine’s own JoanieD pointed out this interesting introduction to Process Theology. Following the rules of our monastery here, you may comment on the article and what the author says. You may not make comments on this author’s denomination. Comprende?

Hey! Good news! Belief in God is increasing! You won’t believe where.  Of course, if you plan to fly there, you may not want to take Alaskan Airlines. They are no longer handing out Scripture verses on flights. Peanuts, yes. Scriptures, no.

Our tenth president’s grandson doesn’t care for current politics, but he especially doesn’t like Newt. Did you hear what I said? John Tyler’s grandson. Tyler, who was born in 1790, has two grandsons who are still living. I imagine staying away from politics has something to do with that.

The Synonymous Rambler tipped me off on the Big Top Evangelical Circus story of the week. The Elephant Room was open for business again this week. Hosts James MacDonald and Mark Driscoll led a discussion on the right way to present the Gospel. Then they got into the topic of the Trinity with T.D. Jakes. Ruh-roh. Seems at least one person thinks the hosts went too far. MacDonald took so much flack for inviting Jakes that he resigned from an organization he helped to found. There was a mighty big elephant in the room this year…

After reading those stories, don’t you think those, um, speakers take themselves just a little too seriously? Fr. James Martin wants to help us reclaim Jesus’ sense of humor.

Honorary iMonk Mark Galli will make you both laugh and think with his take on wanting to see God.

This is what we call in the biz a “tease.” On Thursday I will be reviewing some albums, including the brand new release by Leonard Cohen. “Old Ideas” doesn’t come out until Tuesday, but you can preview the entire album here. He is 79, brothers and sisters. And like wine, he gets better with age.

Richard Roberts was arrested on what would have been his father’s 94th birthday for allegedly driving under the influence. Maybe his nephew, Oral Roberts’ grandson, drove him to drink by announcing his “Gay Agenda” nationwide tour. I think Oral picked a good time to die two years ago, don’t you?

Not sure what to make of this story other than it’s interesting that a cat spoke with the Bastrop, Texas police. And it can drive. And trap other cats. (Read the story carefully, iMonks.) Now, I’m not a cat person, and I know things are done differently in Texas, but still …

We said “hippo birdie two ewes” this last week to Telly Savalas; William Wrigley III (grandson of the inventor of Wrigley’s Spearmint); Benny Hill (inventor of British humor); Robert “Wolfman Jack” Smith; Jack Nicklaus; Richie Havens (the star of Woodstock); Leslie “Billy Ocean” Charles; Bill Bixby; Ernest Borgnine; Oral Roberts; Neil Diamond; Warren “I’ll Sleep When I’m Dead” Zevon (he’s sleeping now…); Ernie Harwell; Alicia Keys; Paul Newman; Bob Uecker; and Ellen Degeneres.

I don’t watch much TV, and rarely andy daytime shows, but I did catch this clip once a few years ago. This is the reason Philo T. Farnsworth invented the boob tube in the first place. Enjoy!

[yframe url='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp1KVPkrimQ']

Comments

  1. Good stuff, Jeff.

    Baseball isn’t far behind.

    Price Fielder made out pretty well with the Tigers. 214 mllion over 9 years…with incentives that could drive that much higher. That’s a lot of Double-Doubles (when he’s in Anaheim)…if he keeps smacking a lot of doubles.

    By the way…I had one today (a Double-Double, heavy sauce) in your honor.

  2. John B. Cobb, one of the founders of Process Theology, has the rare distinction of being both an environmentalist and a 9-11 Truther.

  3. Ah, what a rich treasure trove of – something or other – you have collected for us this Saturday, Jeff!

    The good: Leonard Cohen – yay! Agreed, he gets better with time.

    The not-so-good: Process Theology, of which I was happily unaware until that link. Now, obviously, I cannot say that Majorie is representative of Process Theology, or the United Methodists (of whom I also know nothing and have no animus against them) or of anything or anyone rather than herself and her views. All that being said…

    Okay, she kicks off with the business-type jargon, which always makes my heart sink. When I see terms like “relational” and “dynamism”, I’m sorry to say I automatically think of a release by the Human Resources Department explaining how there are going to be redundancies but hey, this is a wonderful opportunity for you to explore alternative opportunities and it will be for the benefit of the company and those who remain in its employ as a relational dynamic process for exit strategies is implemented (translation: your P45 – or pink slip in American? – will be in your paypacket).

    Right, on to the theology and my uninformed, immediate reactions and responses.

    “You will find that within Christianity, process philosophy has appealed most to liberals” – Danger, danger, Will Robinson? That’s unfair, Martha. Don’t judge before you’ve read what she has to say.

    “It’s tempting to reduce the whole tradition to what happened at Nicea in the 4th century, or with Aquinas in
    the 13th century, or Luther in the 16th, or Wesley in the 18th” – hey, no dissing my man Tommy A! Okay, yeah, gotcha: our understanding is enriched by other sources and we develop deeper and better understandings. Tradition is not static. Reason is not in conflict with faith. I can agree with all that, but why do I feel a “But…” coming on?

    “Philosophy (the methodical use of reason to interpret the world and/or our experience within it) has always been involved in interpreting Scripture and creating the tradition. It’s not a question of whether philosophy will be used, but which philosophy will be used! ” – Oookay, no problem with philosophy and faith – after all, Blessed John Paul II was a phenomenologist – but why am I feeling that “But…” getting bigger? (Does my “But” look big in this?)

    “To exist is to be in relation. Does God exist? If you say yes, then God must also be in relation. To whom? To everyone and everything!” Yes. That’s why we have the doctrine of the Trinity. God is a relationship of Three Persons, both between one another (the interior life of the Trinity) and to creation (the economy or oikoumene of the Trinity).

    “Again, does God exist? If you answer yes, then God is affected by others, and has effects on
    others. Which others? All others!” Yes , see above re: exterior life of the Trinity – but I have a feeling we’re going to be talking about “impassibility” further down the line.

    “how we talk about God as creator in relational categories differs from the “creation out of
    nothing” that has been so dominant in most of the Christian tradition. If God is in relation, then God is always in relation. Process does not have a way to talk about there being absolutely nothing except God.” So much the worse for Process, then, because creation ex nihilo is what differentiates the Judaeo-Christian cosmology from its Ancient Near East neighbours, and I’m already getting a very strong whiff of panentheism and even pantheism from your description of “Process” without this thrown into the mix.

    “But process cannot follow this view. All the evidence suggests that humans are part of a great evolutionary process, and that God creates in and through this process. “Creative transformation” is another name for changes that emerge in evolution.” Ah. I’m not sensing “theistic evolution” here so much as what got Teilhard de Chardin into trouble. Also, I’m pretty sure I read a lot of this stuff in the SF novel “Hyperion” by Dan Simmons.

    “Our long tradition thought of God as observing evil, but not feeling it—indeed much of the tradition thought that God could not feel anything at all! This was what the doctrine of “divine impassibility” was all about. But if God is relational, then God feels, and feels perfectly. The issue is not whether God feels the world, but what God does with God’s feelings of the world!” – Bingo! I knew impassibility would come into it somewhere! As a sidenote, use of inclusive language where people are tripping over their tongues talking about “Godself” and “God’s feelings” in order to avoid gendered language where we might have to refer to God the Father as “He” don’t make me (as a woman) feel included; they make me think of God as (ironically, in view that this Process Theology is all about being relational) impersonal and ultimately an It, not a Person.

    “Because I see resurrections all the time, and experience them within my own life, I can talk about resurrection confidently.” – Really? You see the dead rise from the tomb, like Lazarus?

    “If you push me to say that all the molecules in Jesus’ body were summoned together and the processes of death reversed and Jesus just got up out of that grave and went through a few walls and that’s what resurrection is all about, I think you’re missing the point.” – Ah. No. It’s that “conjuring trick with bones” cleverality of a former Bishop of Durham, Dr. David Jenkins. The “Warm Fuzzy” theory of Easter: the disciples just felt so uplifted and inspired by the memory of Jesus, and came to the realisation that He would always live on in their memories and their words, that they went out to suffer persecution, imprisonment, exile and death for the chance to tell the peoples of the earth that they, too, could live on in the memories of those who loved them and act as an inspiration to them.

    “It is possible that if it hadn’t been for the crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus would have been viewed as another great teacher, or even have been absorbed into the anonymity of history.” – Mm-hmmm. I’m beginning to understand a lot here; since Jesus wasn’t God made Man, but rather a God-Man (that is, a man living as God would have mankind live), then there isn’t a Trinity for God to have an interior life within, no relationships of love between the Persons, and so naturally God must create in order to be relational – God does need us, to be in relation with, and not just us but the whole of creation.

    Yeah – I think I’ll stick with the 13th century, thanks.

  4. Thanks, Jeff, for including the link to the article about process theology. I know it is a long article and many readers here may not have time to read it. So, here are 14 of my favorite sentences from the article:

    “Finally, the world determines what it does with God’s possibilities
    in every moment. Freedom means the ability to participate at some
    level in what one becomes.”

    “But God creates with the world, not
    independently of the world.”

    “God feels everything that happens in just the way that it
    happens—God feels victims and violators. Our long tradition
    thought of God as observing evil, but not feeling it—indeed much
    of the tradition thought that God could not feel anything at all!”

    “Second, to the extent that process-relational
    theologians view unnecessary violence as sin, violence cannot be
    that which saves us from sin! To attribute such action to God is
    like taking the most vile aspect of our own vengeful spite, and
    projecting it onto God.”

    “The cross does not represent vicarious sacrifice,
    but the revelation that God is with us even in our deepest pain.”

    “Resurrection reveals that sin does not have the last
    word, but God does. God is the power to answer our sins not by
    succumbing to them, but by transforming them.”

    “The church is created as we receive
    the influence of the revelation of God in Christ into who we are,
    weaving it into our very beings.”

    “Woven together into community, governed by the vision of God
    mediated through Christ, the church can be a more powerful force
    for good in the world than any single person could be.”

    “Prayer actually changes the way
    the world is, and therefore changes what can happen. In the most
    simplistic of terms, if you are praying, you aren’t not praying! Your
    praying is an openness to God’s own desires, and this opening is
    something God can work with.”

    • Does anyone have a copy of that process theology pamphlet, only translated into English? ‘Cause I could sure use one …

      • I’ll take on the challenge, Ray A. ;-)

        Mmm – lessee. Okay.

        Us being smart 21st century people what know all about science and stuff, we don’t need to hang on to definitions created by people who lived long ago and couldn’t be as smart as us because they didn’t know all about science and stuff.

        There’s a thing (possibly) or (maybe) a person called God, or if you prefer, an entity or force. It/He/Whomever creates stuff. This is because It/He/Whomever got lonely and wanted friends.

        We can create stuff too! At least, we can evolve into beings that can create stuff, because way back in the past we were kinda dumb, then we got smart like we are today, so tomorrow we’ll be even smarter!

        Jesus was an example, or maybe a prototype is a better word. He was God-Man because he was a man living as fully as God wants humans to live.

        Sin is not being nice to each other (where each other includes rocks, clouds, jumbo shrimp, moo-cows and people what aren’t as smart as us).

        Ultimately, human consciousness will evolve to a point where it is so upraised that we will form a group-mind that will be all enlightened and then we will not only share in God’s life, we will be God! (Er, unless that’s the bit I read in “Hyperion” by Dan Simmons).

        So Process Theology is a process whereby we don’t just sit around (that would be static), we do things (that’s the dynamism) which create relationships!

        Hope that makes it all clear :-D

  5. And, as you can see from comparing my reaction to Marjorie’s Process Theology and JoanieD’s, the Catholic Church is indeed Here Comes Everybody.

    :-D

  6. Jack Heron says:

    I… tried to read the introduction to Process Theology. I tried. Every now and then there was a sentence that seemed to be saying something, but then it got smothered in the interactive relational paradigm of dynamism.

    • Ditto….I am not fluent in Orwellian doublespeak. I gave up, and even Wikipedia didn’t clarify any!

    • I had the same reaction.

      • Reading it a second time helped. I get the point, and have heard it in different forms before. To borrow language from other discussions, there is a difference between micro and macro theological changes. I think micro-level changes have occurred throughout church history, but change which threatens the foundations of the faith is something else. But there is obviously debate regarding when those macro-issues have been tread upon, e.g. Ken Ham’s view that compromising on young earth creationism is equal to rejecting the gospel. That whole train wreck with TD Jakes seems address the opposite extreme (well, we agree on these things, so let’s agree to disagree on a foundational issue, like the Trinity). With evangelicalism’s rejection of church history and tradition (in which issues like creationism were addressed centuries before) for an enlightenment approach to scriptural interpretation, I think we are already following a type of process theology, because the standard for interpretation personal; therefore, interpretation will change based upon the individual, the circumstances, and whatever pragmatism demands at the moment. I’ll call it “situational theology” just to tick off both sides.

        • The Previous Dan says:

          Thank you for that. I’ll take another look at the paper, and hopefully this time it will make more sense.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      AKA it was like C++ documentation: “JARGON JARGON JARGON JARGON OBJECT JARGON JARGON JARGON…”?

  7. I have nothing to say today. My turn to be crabby. The power adapter for my computer MELTED yesterday leaving a burn mark in my computer. So I am going to return that today!!!

  8. One of President Tyler’s grandsons goes to my brother-in-law’s church and has been to his home. They were telling me about him. Blows my mind to think of the time frames involved!

    • I thought it was a hoax, to be honest, or involved marriage or adoption. I was WRONG!

      • And I always thought my dad’s side had long generations. My great great grandfather was born around 1800. But these guy beat me by 2 generations.

  9. In “What is Process Theology, Marjorie Hewitt Suchocki wrote, “The same is true of biblical understanding. The texts are given, but how they are interpreted varies enormously from age to age. Just think of the way several great streams of Christianity interpret those baptismal texts! The texts are the same; the interpretations are quite varied and even contradictory. So how we draw from Scripture is also an adventure. Scriptural understanding blends studies of the actual texts together with the history of the way those texts have been interpreted in the tradition. Scripture may look like a steady state sort of thing, but it is actually a dynamic story of varying interpretations and applications through history.”

    This would be true if God did not exist and/or God did not want anything further to do with us now that we have our scripture all collected in a single hard-bound edition. So if you don’t think God exists, or you can’t hear or don’t want to hear God’s Spirit, then Process Theology is a pretty good choice for you. You’ll get to be educated, intelligent, clever, and eminently superior to the obtuse hoi polloi of Christianity.

    “Has any of the authorities trusted him? Or any of the P’rushim? No! True, these `am-ha’aretz [that would be Hebrew for "hoi polloi"] do, but they know nothing about the Torah, they are under a curse!”

    I think that says it all.

  10. Sanctification is both crisis and process.

    Revivalists like to believe that one can have a life-changing crisis experience after which “poof!” all problems go away and one is suddenly holy – sinless perfection, in some circles.

    Process (typically) is the idea that everyday we are being transformed into the likeness of Christ through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. In Lutheran circles, this is the process of beginning the day with morning prayers, seeking God’s strength and grace for the day to come, the going about the work of ones vocation in that grace and strength, then ending the day with evening prayer, where we reflect on where we fell short and receive Christ’s forgiveness and grace, and peacefully sleep to awake and start a new day tomorrow. Learning to show mercy is part of this process; what better place to learn mercy, righteousness, and love than in the dirt and sweat of ones daily work, studies, and duties?

    Pragmatists turn process into a system of ten step programs to achieve sanctification through ones own efforts. I think what we have in evengelicalism today is the worse combination of crisis and process: belief that completing the next ten-step spiritual program will finally achieve the long-awaited state of the life we have always wanted. The outcome has nothing to contribute to ones daily vocation.

    • LIke

    • “Process (typically) is the idea that everyday we are being transformed into the likeness of Christ through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.”

      I agree, dumb ox, and I actually don’t think the writer of the piece on “process theology” would disagree with you. I read carefully her bit about resurrection and I think we would agree with her that Jesus was not just “resuscitated.” He didn’t just have his body come back to life. It was now a CHANGED body, unlike what it had been. God was showing us our future life in the Kingdom of God through Jesus.

      I like how process theology deals with prayer. It actually makes prayer be even more of a personal thing between us and God. I know there is a lot of jargon there, and all that verbiage can get in the way of understanding, but it can also clarify things as well.

  11. LMBO…. I love Jesus and I drink a little… That was the best! That makes 2 heartfelt laughs for today. Wonder if it is against the rules here to post a joke!? Nah, after all its been said: A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.

    ‘Bless me Father, for I have sinned.
    I have been with a loose girl’.

    The priest asks, ‘Is that you, little Joey Pagano?’

    ‘Yes, Father, it is.’

    ‘And who was the girl you were with?’

    ‘I can’t tell you, Father. I don’t want to ruin her reputation’.

    “Well, Joey, I’m sure to find out her name sooner or later
    so you may as well tell me now. Was it Tina Minetti?’

    ‘I cannot say.’

    ‘Was it Teresa Mazzarelli?’

    ‘I’ll never tell.’

    ‘Was it Nina Capelli?’

    ‘I’m sorry, but I cannot name her.’

    ‘Was it Cathy Piriano?’

    ‘My lips are sealed.’

    ‘Was it Rosa DiAngelo, then?’

    ‘Please, Father, I cannot tell you.’

    The priest sighs in frustration.
    ‘You’re very tight lipped, and I admire that.
    But you’ve sinned and have to atone.
    You cannot be an altar boy now for 4 months.
    Now you go and behave yourself.’

    Joey walks back to his pew, and his friend Franco slides over and whispers, ‘What’d you get?’

    ‘Four month’s vacation and five good leads.’

  12. I didn’t see the Elephant Room, but I’ve heard a bunch of reports, and I’ll echo Trevin Wax’s take on it: Jakes is a prosperity preacher, and a the ER guys ask him pre-digested questions like “do you believe the BIble is inerrant, inspired,” etc.

    In other words, Driscoll et al went for a bunch of stuff that any prosperity preacher could easily say yes to, and ignored the real life issue that’s actually poisoning people who are exposed to Jakes. The issue of the Trinity being perhaps a natural topic given Jakes’ background, still doesn’t constitute the thrust and substance of the man’s ministry and preaching. Heck you can just about preach his message without any belief in God at all. Jakes can now perfectly affirm the Trinity while continuing to tell people that God’s punishing them if they’re poor (or have a small church, or whatever). And he’s been essentially unchallenged by a bunch of the “big dogs” in the mission/church/theology world. Way to go, attractional Christianity.

    Oh yeah, but MacDonald is the one who should get criticized for inviting him. (sarcasm)

  13. I’d be among the first to join a Gladys Hardy fan club, and among the last to award a star on the sidewalk to Marjorie. Frankly speaking, Jeff, the tour of Process-Relational Theology was not so much a ramble as it was a slogging through the muck (at least it was a large-print edition and I was able to slog quickly). It displays all the appearance of truth with only a little of the substance.

    Speaking as a broadcast-advertising-promotion kind of guy, I suggest a glitzier name is needed to properly market this philosophy …perhaps “Neo-Gnostic”. Much improved logo possibilities, too. Yeah, I think that one has legs. :)

  14. Props to Mark Galli for showing that rarest of traits in the evangelical community: honesty. As Martin Luther reportedly wrote: “Christians don’t tell lies, they sing them” …

    • +1 ( Did Luther really say that?! Gotta love that guy… so all this happy clappy crap has been going on for awhile)

  15. Jeff Dunn wrote, “Hey! Good news! Belief in God is increasing! You won’t believe where.”

    I’m not sure why you’d expect me to be incredulous that the percentage of people claiming to believe in God is actually rising in Israel.

    Did you expect the percentage to be falling, Jeff? How come?

    • A) Because most American Christians assume that all Israelis already believe in God, so you can’t go up from 100%.

      B) Because the Israeli state was founded by secular Jews, Zionism was an avowedly secular Jewish cause, and the majority of Israelis are still basically secular Jews, so you might think the trend in non-theistic views would become more common. (They just don’t have nearly as many babies as the ultra-Orthodox, or it probably would!.)

      C) Your question was entirely rhetorical, so it doesn’ t matter.

      • Speaking of religious/non-religious statehood, and birth rates, I have a riddle that I got from Alex Trebek in an interview once. He said that a lot of Jeopardy’s answers (rather, questions) are included in the questions (uh… answers). That is, they’re obvious if you think about them.

        Answer: Country with the lowest per capita birth rate.
        Question: What is the Vatican?

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

        D) And it Fulfills some End Time Prophecy or other.

  16. Jeff Dunn wrote, “Richard Roberts was arrested on what would have been his father’s 94th birthday for allegedly driving under the influence. Maybe his nephew, Oral Roberts’ grandson, drove him to drink by announcing his “Gay Agenda” nationwide tour. I think Oral picked a good time to die two years ago, don’t you?”

    This little paragraph was enlightening, Jeff. Let me get this straight … you’re loathing of Oral Roberts is so extraordinary that, two years after his death, you take schadenfreude in reporting the alleged sins of his child and grandchild?

    Time to check under the hood, Jeff. There’s a red light on the dash.

    • Make that, “… your loathing…”

    • Randy, I think you are reading more ugliness into this than intended. I am hearing “Thankfully grandma passed on before all of this new age stuff in her decendants could crush her spirit”.

      If this ole’ Catholic can give the late Rev. Roberts some slack, maybe you could, too….

      • I doubt this could get much uglier, Pattie. Jeff Dunn has no problem castigating others, so I’m sure he won’t mind my comments at all.

        • Wow Randy. Wake up on the wrong side of the hammock? For your information, I attended Oral Roberts University in the 1970s. I taught there in the 1980s. I knew Oral, and I know Richard and I know Roberta (Potts). I live in Tulsa and get this news firsthand. I still have many connections with ORU. Therefore I think I have a pretty good seat from which to speak. Yes, I think OR would be heartbroken over the two stories about his family that came out this week. I have nothing against Richard Roberts or Randy Potts. I’m just reporting the news.

          Sorry to break it to you, but Saturday Ramblings is a time for me to toss stories out and let others comment on the stories. Your time to bash me is when I write an essay. I usually write on Thursdays. I’ll be looking for you then.

          Thanks for reading.

          • It’s a good thing Michael Spencer isn’t here to read these goings-on.

          • Excuse me, but aren’t we talking about Oral Roberts–the guy who told his followers to donate a million dollars, or else God would kill him? That man needed psychiatric help.

          • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

            Covered by Doonesbury under the title “The Oral Roberts Deathwatch.”

            And by some filker on Dr Demento with a song titled “You Give God a Bad Name”:
            “Your son Oral Jr
            Wants to be rich like you;
            Is he gonna see
            A 300-foot Jesus too?”

    • Yeah, I wouldn’t call myself a fan of the Roberts style of ministry, but this seem to be little more than engaging in gossip for the sake of gossip. If the purpose were to ask for prayers or support for the family during this time that would be one thing, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

      Earlier this week people were castigating Mars Hill in Seattle for engaging in spreading gossip about the discipline of one its members. Yet when gossip is spread about someone that “we” don’t like, then apparently it’s no big deal.

      • Not gossip. I’m reporting news that has already spread around the country. Gossip would be if this were hush-hush. I do know a lot of things like that about many of the big name speakers who are in charge of large churches. I don’t talk about those things unless they have already come out in the news. And I’m sure the Roberts family would welcome your prayers. They have mine.

        • I hadn’t heard about this story. This is my first time hearing about it. But then again, most of the news these days is bad, so I try not to pay attention to the news any more than I have to.

  17. Forget the DUI: Richard Roberts drives a _2006_ Mercedes????!!!!!

  18. Kelby Carlson says:

    I noticed that two fundamental components of orthodoxy seem to get left out of process theology: the Trinity and the Incarnation. Put those two things back where they belong and process theology seems, well, rather unnecessary and superfluous.

  19. Gack… I want my 20 minutes back on the Process Theology booklet, it reads like a modern version of Gaia Mythology, new age babble, and a dose of Relativism, all mixed together by someone who thinks they found a more ‘informed’ way of looking at the world.

    I couldn’t finish it, it reminds me of Jeremy Bentham and his philosophy, sure there was a nugget of truth in what he said, but on the whole you have to wonder if he was just taking the wrong drugs!! ;)

    The biggest problem with her concepts, is that they change the divine nature into something that only a self important human being could come up with. In section 16 she talks about not being able to make a wrong decision because God would work with her to make the right one, I’m sure that will make victims of horrific crimes feel so much better. That because God works THROUGH everything and everyone, that they really made the right choice, with his help of course.

    You gotta love a pastor who’s not smart enough to figure out that tossing a cat over a bridge was something he could get away with… Yikes!!!

    I don’t agree with Ellen’s beliefs, but she is a funny lady and seems super nice. Funny Stuff…

    -Paul-

  20. I think the process thing has some very intriguing concepts on prayer and communion of the saints. I get a little lost on who Christ is and what happened on the cross. Sounds like universal connection is a big player and I do agree with that. We affect and are affected simply by being.

    • “I think the process thing has some very intriguing concepts on prayer and communion of the saints.”

      I agree, ChrisS.