Comments on: Robert Sungenis Responds to “Catholic Questions Part 2″ http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2 ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:58:24 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: D. Greer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-174998 D. Greer Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:32:03 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-174998 To say that Sungenis made "mistakes" and that "attacks" on him are "ridiculous" is to illustrate the degree to which some people's admiration of Sungenis clouds their judgment. The man was under interdict from his bishop. And his bishop threatened to denounce him publicly because of his public displays of anti-Semitism. He apparently can't get an imprimatur and hasn't gotten one since his second book. In this day and age, all of that speaks volumes for Catholics who are not so susceptible to the cult of the personality. I'm sorry, but it's "ridiculous" to label a mere "mistake" what Sungenis has done. And to call Jews an "infection" as Mr. Sungenis has is disgusting. He used to do good work. But over the past several years he's been caught in plagiarism, citing false and inaccurate quotes and sources, bigotry and more. It's not just about Jews. It's a serious mistake to ignore or gloss over this. http://wquercus.com/sungenis/ http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2007/03/sixteen-proofs-of-sungeniss-anti.html Somewhere he went off the reservation. When he gets back on it, we should all rejoice. Pray for the man. To say that Sungenis made “mistakes” and that “attacks” on him are “ridiculous” is to illustrate the degree to which some people’s admiration of Sungenis clouds their judgment. The man was under interdict from his bishop. And his bishop threatened to denounce him publicly because of his public displays of anti-Semitism. He apparently can’t get an imprimatur and hasn’t gotten one since his second book. In this day and age, all of that speaks volumes for Catholics who are not so susceptible to the cult of the personality.

I’m sorry, but it’s “ridiculous” to label a mere “mistake” what Sungenis has done. And to call Jews an “infection” as Mr. Sungenis has is disgusting.

He used to do good work. But over the past several years he’s been caught in plagiarism, citing false and inaccurate quotes and sources, bigotry and more. It’s not just about Jews. It’s a serious mistake to ignore or gloss over this.

http://wquercus.com/sungenis/

http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2007/03/sixteen-proofs-of-sungeniss-anti.html

Somewhere he went off the reservation. When he gets back on it, we should all rejoice.

Pray for the man.

]]> By: vladimir998 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-174732 vladimir998 Thu, 27 Dec 2007 03:16:56 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-174732 I have long admired Bob Sungenis. I think he made mistakes in his criticism of Jews and Jewish theology, but honestly the attacks on him - here and elsewhere - are ridiculous. I just want to point out a few things: 1) No matter what you think of Geocentrism, if you actually read Sungenis' works on it, you'll be hardpressed to refute it even if you feel compelled to dismiss it out of hand. 2) I have found Sungenis to be very reliable on theology. Yes, he is "old school". I fail to see why that is a problem when you're talking about an old Church - THE Church. 3) Sungenis is a far more capable apologist and scholar than many of his enemies. I like Mark Shea, and I like his books and articles, but honestly, Sungenis' works run so much deeper and broader than his. And, remember, I LIKE Shea. I have nothing against the man. I just think Sungenis is a better apologist and scholar. 4) I also like Fr. Kimel and celebrate the fact that he has come home and become an ordained priest in the Catholic Church. May God bless him in his ministry. And none of that changes the fact that I STILL THINK Sungenis is very reliable on theological matters. I have long admired Bob Sungenis. I think he made mistakes in his criticism of Jews and Jewish theology, but honestly the attacks on him – here and elsewhere – are ridiculous.

I just want to point out a few things:

1) No matter what you think of Geocentrism, if you actually read Sungenis’ works on it, you’ll be hardpressed to refute it even if you feel compelled to dismiss it out of hand.

2) I have found Sungenis to be very reliable on theology. Yes, he is “old school”. I fail to see why that is a problem when you’re talking about an old Church – THE Church.

3) Sungenis is a far more capable apologist and scholar than many of his enemies. I like Mark Shea, and I like his books and articles, but honestly, Sungenis’ works run so much deeper and broader than his. And, remember, I LIKE Shea. I have nothing against the man. I just think Sungenis is a better apologist and scholar.

4) I also like Fr. Kimel and celebrate the fact that he has come home and become an ordained priest in the Catholic Church. May God bless him in his ministry. And none of that changes the fact that I STILL THINK Sungenis is very reliable on theological matters.

]]> By: J. Stanmeyer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-165658 J. Stanmeyer Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:13:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-165658 Sungenis said, “I’m not an anti-semite, and not even close to being one, although I will criticize Jewish theology” and "Am I critical of the Jews? You betcha. Do I hate the Jews? Not on your life. I’m critical of Protestants. Does that mean I hate you? Don’t listen to the propaganda. Listen to me. I think it’s a safe bet to get the truth from the horses mouth, don’t you?” He just criticizes Jewish theology? He's just as critical of Protestants? Please. I supported him at one time but he's not trustworthy anymore. Has Sungenis ever said Protestants are trying to take over the world? They were behind the assassination of JFK? They were behind FDR allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed because it would help them with their goals? They sent Monica Lewinsky in to trap Bill Clinton because he crossed them? They're tapping our phone lines to find out what we're up to? Not that I know of. Has he ever called Protestants an "infection" (like Nazis did about Jews, too)? Has he ever said that Protestants are "excised" wherever they go because they try to take everything over? Called them "godless racists"? Said that they tend to be "inherently violent"? He said all of that about Jews. And he said a lot more. And a lot of people have written about it. Just use google and try "Sungenis" or add Jews or Jewish. It's all over the place. http://markshea.blogspot.com/search?q=Sungenis http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2007/03/sixteen-proofs-of-sungeniss-anti.html http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2007/01/carl-schmitt-israel-shamir-and-robert.html http://wquercus.com/sungenis/ http://www.sungenisandthejews.com/Section2.html Sungenis said, “I’m not an anti-semite, and not even close to being one, although I will criticize Jewish theology”
and
“Am I critical of the Jews? You betcha. Do I hate the Jews? Not on your life. I’m critical of Protestants. Does that mean I hate you? Don’t listen to the propaganda. Listen to me. I think it’s a safe bet to get the truth from the horses mouth, don’t you?”

He just criticizes Jewish theology? He’s just as critical of Protestants?
Please.
I supported him at one time but he’s not trustworthy anymore.
Has Sungenis ever said Protestants are trying to take over the world? They were behind the assassination of JFK? They were behind FDR allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed because it would help them with their goals? They sent Monica Lewinsky in to trap Bill Clinton because he crossed them? They’re tapping our phone lines to find out what we’re up to?

Not that I know of.
Has he ever called Protestants an “infection” (like Nazis did about Jews, too)? Has he ever said that Protestants are “excised” wherever they go because they try to take everything over? Called them “godless racists”? Said that they tend to be “inherently violent”?

He said all of that about Jews. And he said a lot more. And a lot of people have written about it. Just use google and try “Sungenis” or add Jews or Jewish. It’s all over the place.

http://markshea.blogspot.com/search?q=Sungenis
http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2007/03/sixteen-proofs-of-sungeniss-anti.html
http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2007/01/carl-schmitt-israel-shamir-and-robert.html

http://wquercus.com/sungenis/

http://www.sungenisandthejews.com/Section2.html

]]> By: J, Stanmeyer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-165575 J, Stanmeyer Fri, 07 Dec 2007 05:06:22 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-165575 Sungenis said, “I’m not an anti-semite, and not even close to being one, although I will criticize Jewish theology” and "Am I critical of the Jews? You betcha. Do I hate the Jews? Not on your life. I’m critical of Protestants. Does that mean I hate you? Don’t listen to the propaganda. Listen to me. I think it’s a safe bet to get the truth from the horses mouth, don’t you?” He just criticizes Jewish theology? He's just as critical of Protestants? Please. I supported him at one time but he's not trustworthy anymore. Has Sungenis ever said Protestants are trying to take over the world? They were behind the assassination of JFK? They were behind FDR allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed because it would help them with their goals? They sent Monica Lewinsky in to trap Bill Clinton because he crossed them? They're tapping our phone lines to find out what we're up to? Not that I know of. Has he ever called Protestants an "infection" (like Nazis did about Jews, too)? Has he ever said that Protestants are "excised" wherever they go because they try to take everything over? Called them "godless racists"? Said that they tend to be "inherently violent"? He said all of that about Jews. And he said a lot more. And a lot of people have written about it. Just use google and try "Sungenis" or add Jews or Jewish. It's all over the place. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCXkLptVCWw http://markshea.blogspot.com/search?q=Sungenis http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2007/03/sixteen-proofs-of-sungeniss-anti.html http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2007/01/carl-schmitt-israel-shamir-and-robert.html http://wquercus.com/sungenis/ http://www.sungenisandthejews.com/Section2.html Sungenis said, “I’m not an anti-semite, and not even close to being one, although I will criticize Jewish theology”
and
“Am I critical of the Jews? You betcha. Do I hate the Jews? Not on your life. I’m critical of Protestants. Does that mean I hate you? Don’t listen to the propaganda. Listen to me. I think it’s a safe bet to get the truth from the horses mouth, don’t you?”

He just criticizes Jewish theology? He’s just as critical of Protestants?
Please.
I supported him at one time but he’s not trustworthy anymore.
Has Sungenis ever said Protestants are trying to take over the world? They were behind the assassination of JFK? They were behind FDR allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed because it would help them with their goals? They sent Monica Lewinsky in to trap Bill Clinton because he crossed them? They’re tapping our phone lines to find out what we’re up to?

Not that I know of.
Has he ever called Protestants an “infection” (like Nazis did about Jews, too)? Has he ever said that Protestants are “excised” wherever they go because they try to take everything over? Called them “godless racists”? Said that they tend to be “inherently violent”?

He said all of that about Jews. And he said a lot more. And a lot of people have written about it. Just use google and try “Sungenis” or add Jews or Jewish. It’s all over the place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCXkLptVCWw
http://markshea.blogspot.com/search?q=Sungenis
http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2007/03/sixteen-proofs-of-sungeniss-anti.html
http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2007/01/carl-schmitt-israel-shamir-and-robert.html

http://wquercus.com/sungenis/

http://www.sungenisandthejews.com/Section2.html

]]> By: Ben Douglass http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-163780 Ben Douglass Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:27:57 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-163780 Dear all, I was Sungenis’ Vice President for about two years, so I know his theological views fairly well. My comments are in the old thread, but I got in a few days late, so most people probably haven't seen them. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/catholic-questions-part-2-horton-interviews-sungenis-on-justification Dear all,

I was Sungenis’ Vice President for about two years, so I know his theological views fairly well. My comments are in the old thread, but I got in a few days late, so most people probably haven’t seen them.

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/catholic-questions-part-2-horton-interviews-sungenis-on-justification

]]> By: Troy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-163056 Troy Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:48:48 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-163056 Mr. Sungenis, thanks for the reasoned response to the original "Catholic Questions part 2" post. Michael, thanks for providing the follow up. Mr. Sungenis, thanks for the reasoned response to the original “Catholic Questions part 2″ post.

Michael, thanks for providing the follow up.

]]> By: Kyle http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-162668 Kyle Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:11:59 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-162668 "imaginative reconstructions of the Oxford Movement" Well, I know somebody who's not getting an invitation to my Anglo-Catholic pride parade this summer. Harrumph! “imaginative reconstructions of the Oxford Movement”

Well, I know somebody who’s not getting an invitation to my Anglo-Catholic pride parade this summer. Harrumph!

]]> By: Fr Alvin Kimel http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-162656 Fr Alvin Kimel Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:26:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-162656 <i>Kimel read Catholic theology as an Anglican, had rather ahistorical views on the nature and character of Anglicanism owing more to the imaginative reconstructions of the Oxford movement rather than to its theological foundations in the 16th through late 17th centuries, and overall buys into Newman’s narrative defense of Catholicism and reworking of the doctrine of Tradition. As such, he is heavily predisposed to answer the question of whether Vatican II Catholicism is faithful to the nature and character of Tridentine Catholicism and Vatican I Catholicism strongly in the affirmative.</i> I cannot let this piece of ad hominem pass without comment. I am of course a former Anglican and this training continues to inform my theological reflection. Whether that puts me at a theological disadvantage or not only my fellow Catholics can say; but certainly Josh is in no position to judge. As a priest of the Catholic Church I of course believe that Vatican II faithfully stated the Catholic faith, just as I believe that the Councils of Trent, Florence, Chalcedon, and Nicaea faithfully stated the Catholic faith; and with <a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/december/documents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051222_roman-curia_en.html" rel="nofollow">Pope Benedict</a> I reject the hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture, which sees the Second Vatican Council as a repudiation of the Catholic Church's historic theological identity. I am confident that Mr. Sungenis would agree with me on this. Kimel read Catholic theology as an Anglican, had rather ahistorical views on the nature and character of Anglicanism owing more to the imaginative reconstructions of the Oxford movement rather than to its theological foundations in the 16th through late 17th centuries, and overall buys into Newman’s narrative defense of Catholicism and reworking of the doctrine of Tradition. As such, he is heavily predisposed to answer the question of whether Vatican II Catholicism is faithful to the nature and character of Tridentine Catholicism and Vatican I Catholicism strongly in the affirmative.

I cannot let this piece of ad hominem pass without comment. I am of course a former Anglican and this training continues to inform my theological reflection. Whether that puts me at a theological disadvantage or not only my fellow Catholics can say; but certainly Josh is in no position to judge. As a priest of the Catholic Church I of course believe that Vatican II faithfully stated the Catholic faith, just as I believe that the Councils of Trent, Florence, Chalcedon, and Nicaea faithfully stated the Catholic faith; and with Pope Benedict I reject the hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture, which sees the Second Vatican Council as a repudiation of the Catholic Church’s historic theological identity. I am confident that Mr. Sungenis would agree with me on this.

]]> By: Charley http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-162643 Charley Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:38:53 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-162643 Comment "6" not "7". Comment “6″ not “7″.

]]> By: Charley http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2/comment-page-1#comment-162642 Charley Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:37:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/robert-sungenis-responds-to-catholic-questions-part-2#comment-162642 Correction: The quote was from Mr. Sungenis’s answer to Comment 7 Correction: The quote was from Mr. Sungenis’s answer to Comment 7

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