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	<title>Comments on: Riffs/Open Mic at the iMonk Cafe: Planetshaken, But Not Stirred</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: From the outside looking in &#171; between the ages</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506751</link>
		<dc:creator>From the outside looking in &#171; between the ages</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 02:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506751</guid>
		<description>[...] HT: Internet Monk [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HT: Internet Monk [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sensus Divinitatis News</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506628</link>
		<dc:creator>Sensus Divinitatis News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 11:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506628</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Riffs/Open Mic at the iMonk Cafe: Planetshaken, But Not Stirred...&lt;/strong&gt;

This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Riffs/Open Mic at the iMonk Cafe: Planetshaken, But Not Stirred&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaplain Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506588</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaplain Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 02:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506588</guid>
		<description>iMonk, you are right, the answer is in our hearts. What will it look like when our hearts are right? I don&#039;t claim to have much wisdom in this area, but here are a few of my dreams...

1. A resurgence of smaller, simpler, neighborhood-oriented churches.
2. Worship that is simple, hospitable, sacramental.
3. A less &quot;professional&quot; ministry (in the world&#039;s terms) and a humbler, more pastoral model of leadership, Biblical preaching, spiritual care and formation.
4. Congregations that are truly missional--abandoning the &quot;temple&quot; mentality where everything revolves around the organization and its programs, freeing and encouraging people to celebrate God&#039;s presence in everyday life, finding ways of serving their neighbors first, sacrificially supporting their brethren and mission efforts around the world, and planting churches in new neighborhoods when they reach a size where intensive pastoral care and community become difficult.
5. An undeviating focus on the Good News of Jesus rather than moralism, culture war and political issues, and theological hobby-horses.

These characteristics comprise my understanding of (your term) &quot;Jesus-shaped&quot; churches. Forget &quot;the cutting edge.&quot; Put technology in its place--in some cases, abandon it when it keeps you from face-to-face relationships. Slash the budget, focus on the essentials, and give the rest to missions (but take good care of your pastors). Serve those who have no way of paying you back. Abandon the impulse to impress. Stop spouting the party line long enough to listen to your neighbors and discover afresh what it means to be human and living in a fallen world. Grow up. Get real. Get on &quot;the way&quot; and walk with Jesus in the community of his friends and those who can guide you along the path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iMonk, you are right, the answer is in our hearts. What will it look like when our hearts are right? I don&#8217;t claim to have much wisdom in this area, but here are a few of my dreams&#8230;</p>
<p>1. A resurgence of smaller, simpler, neighborhood-oriented churches.<br />
2. Worship that is simple, hospitable, sacramental.<br />
3. A less &#8220;professional&#8221; ministry (in the world&#8217;s terms) and a humbler, more pastoral model of leadership, Biblical preaching, spiritual care and formation.<br />
4. Congregations that are truly missional&#8211;abandoning the &#8220;temple&#8221; mentality where everything revolves around the organization and its programs, freeing and encouraging people to celebrate God&#8217;s presence in everyday life, finding ways of serving their neighbors first, sacrificially supporting their brethren and mission efforts around the world, and planting churches in new neighborhoods when they reach a size where intensive pastoral care and community become difficult.<br />
5. An undeviating focus on the Good News of Jesus rather than moralism, culture war and political issues, and theological hobby-horses.</p>
<p>These characteristics comprise my understanding of (your term) &#8220;Jesus-shaped&#8221; churches. Forget &#8220;the cutting edge.&#8221; Put technology in its place&#8211;in some cases, abandon it when it keeps you from face-to-face relationships. Slash the budget, focus on the essentials, and give the rest to missions (but take good care of your pastors). Serve those who have no way of paying you back. Abandon the impulse to impress. Stop spouting the party line long enough to listen to your neighbors and discover afresh what it means to be human and living in a fallen world. Grow up. Get real. Get on &#8220;the way&#8221; and walk with Jesus in the community of his friends and those who can guide you along the path.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506524</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506524</guid>
		<description>That response raises more questions than answers, but Jesus tended to do that too.  I do find it hard to judge the hearts of all those attending Planetshaken to be in the wrong, but I think your point is not where their hearts are, but ours should be and using this as an example. 

Anyway, thank you iMonk for your thought provoking article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That response raises more questions than answers, but Jesus tended to do that too.  I do find it hard to judge the hearts of all those attending Planetshaken to be in the wrong, but I think your point is not where their hearts are, but ours should be and using this as an example. </p>
<p>Anyway, thank you iMonk for your thought provoking article.</p>
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		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506516</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506516</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a pretty evangelical response. What&#039;s the next thing?

The post evangelical answer is that the answers have always been there in the smaller, deeper, more ancient, simpler, Christian traditions. They are there in China, India, and the global south. Theres a world that has said no to the evangelical circus.

It&#039;s there for whomever wants it. It&#039;s not going away, which is more than I can say for what we&#039;ve reading about here.

As long as we want to play in the playground of cultural idolatry, we aren&#039;t going to see the answer. The kingdom was right in front of the Rich Young Ruler, yet he asked Jesus to give him the next big thing. When he got his answer, he turned away.

What will it be evangelicals? Power? Fame? Celebrity? or The dusty roads of Galilee and the world? The church of the poor? The small places? The real deal.

The problem is in OUR HEARTS brother. Not in our program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a pretty evangelical response. What&#8217;s the next thing?</p>
<p>The post evangelical answer is that the answers have always been there in the smaller, deeper, more ancient, simpler, Christian traditions. They are there in China, India, and the global south. Theres a world that has said no to the evangelical circus.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s there for whomever wants it. It&#8217;s not going away, which is more than I can say for what we&#8217;ve reading about here.</p>
<p>As long as we want to play in the playground of cultural idolatry, we aren&#8217;t going to see the answer. The kingdom was right in front of the Rich Young Ruler, yet he asked Jesus to give him the next big thing. When he got his answer, he turned away.</p>
<p>What will it be evangelicals? Power? Fame? Celebrity? or The dusty roads of Galilee and the world? The church of the poor? The small places? The real deal.</p>
<p>The problem is in OUR HEARTS brother. Not in our program.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506515</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506515</guid>
		<description>I have only one real question in response to this.  If this is a apears to you to be the death throes of Christian evangelicisim, what do you propose we do about it?

Admitedly, for most of us it isn&#039;t our congregation we&#039;re reading about.  Admitedly many congregations have similar characteristics to greater or lesser degrees.  Admitedly pointing out the problem is the first step towards finding a solution.  Can we please, please, please move on to the next step.  If that&#039;s pointing out what is working (or did work historically), or experimenting with new ideas that no one&#039;s tried yet, or simply getting down to the specifics of what went wrong to facilitate addressing the problems piecemail.  Criticism is only different from bad-mouthing if it offers hope of(and perferably a plan for) improvement.  

Or is it your position that the evangelical church is beyond recovery, beyond hope, and no longer used by God in any meaningful way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have only one real question in response to this.  If this is a apears to you to be the death throes of Christian evangelicisim, what do you propose we do about it?</p>
<p>Admitedly, for most of us it isn&#8217;t our congregation we&#8217;re reading about.  Admitedly many congregations have similar characteristics to greater or lesser degrees.  Admitedly pointing out the problem is the first step towards finding a solution.  Can we please, please, please move on to the next step.  If that&#8217;s pointing out what is working (or did work historically), or experimenting with new ideas that no one&#8217;s tried yet, or simply getting down to the specifics of what went wrong to facilitate addressing the problems piecemail.  Criticism is only different from bad-mouthing if it offers hope of(and perferably a plan for) improvement.  </p>
<p>Or is it your position that the evangelical church is beyond recovery, beyond hope, and no longer used by God in any meaningful way?</p>
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		<title>By: MIke</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-1#comment-506486</link>
		<dc:creator>MIke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506486</guid>
		<description>Got it...thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got it&#8230;thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon F</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506321</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 14:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506321</guid>
		<description>Ahhh, if only my ears really did bleed... at least then I&#039;d be up for something like Padre Pio was in life and in death. I&#039;m sure that&#039;s at least one of the ticks in the box for sainthood or something... =P *just kidding: RC&#039;s don&#039;t take that last statement too much to heart!*

Glad to see that the metric conversion works out alright for you FollowOfHim. Though I think that pound cake in metric terms would be &quot;400 gram cake&quot;. A bit of a mouthful to get out.

And LOL @ the sarcasm! It&#039;s nearly 12:30am as I type this and I&#039;m having to stifle laughter to avoid waking up the rest of the people in the house. =)

Yes, my liturgical roots, a mixture of evangelical Methodism and Anglo-Catholic Anglicanism. It&#039;s a far cry from the PlanetShakers experience indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh, if only my ears really did bleed&#8230; at least then I&#8217;d be up for something like Padre Pio was in life and in death. I&#8217;m sure that&#8217;s at least one of the ticks in the box for sainthood or something&#8230; =P *just kidding: RC&#8217;s don&#8217;t take that last statement too much to heart!*</p>
<p>Glad to see that the metric conversion works out alright for you FollowOfHim. Though I think that pound cake in metric terms would be &#8220;400 gram cake&#8221;. A bit of a mouthful to get out.</p>
<p>And LOL @ the sarcasm! It&#8217;s nearly 12:30am as I type this and I&#8217;m having to stifle laughter to avoid waking up the rest of the people in the house. =)</p>
<p>Yes, my liturgical roots, a mixture of evangelical Methodism and Anglo-Catholic Anglicanism. It&#8217;s a far cry from the PlanetShakers experience indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506295</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506295</guid>
		<description>iMonk, this post of mine was a bit of a vent which on second thought I would probably prefer not to leave up, since the discussion is on the phenomenon not the particular church. I would appreciate if you could delete it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iMonk, this post of mine was a bit of a vent which on second thought I would probably prefer not to leave up, since the discussion is on the phenomenon not the particular church. I would appreciate if you could delete it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffsopen-mic-at-the-imonk-cafe-planetshaken-but-not-stirred/comment-page-2#comment-506288</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 11:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4059#comment-506288</guid>
		<description>Interesting synchonicity with this post in that I just visited Planetshakers to evaluate their worship service for a class (I&#039;m an Anglican, btw). The article is fairly accurate in its description. Memorable moments:

- We need to &#039;position God&#039; to receive our praise.  ???
- A young women in a red shirt being singled out to be told that she needed victory in her life - God  now giving her the name &#039;Victoria&#039;.
- Singing the same chorus upwards of fifty times, then being told by the pastor, without irony, that we often need to &#039;sing a new song&#039; because old songs can get stale when we&#039;ve sung them too many times.
- People being begged to let go of the bondage of the Big Bang Theory and Evolution
- A healing time devoted especially to people who take medication for long-term medical problems  such as blood pressure.

And most significantly for this discussion:

- Being assured that becoming a Christian doesn&#039;t mean joining a church or performing a ritual, it means a personal relationship with God. Now pass the giving bucket and credit card forms....

I don&#039;t think post-evangelicalism can arrive soon enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting synchonicity with this post in that I just visited Planetshakers to evaluate their worship service for a class (I&#8217;m an Anglican, btw). The article is fairly accurate in its description. Memorable moments:</p>
<p>- We need to &#8216;position God&#8217; to receive our praise.  ???<br />
- A young women in a red shirt being singled out to be told that she needed victory in her life &#8211; God  now giving her the name &#8216;Victoria&#8217;.<br />
- Singing the same chorus upwards of fifty times, then being told by the pastor, without irony, that we often need to &#8216;sing a new song&#8217; because old songs can get stale when we&#8217;ve sung them too many times.<br />
- People being begged to let go of the bondage of the Big Bang Theory and Evolution<br />
- A healing time devoted especially to people who take medication for long-term medical problems  such as blood pressure.</p>
<p>And most significantly for this discussion:</p>
<p>- Being assured that becoming a Christian doesn&#8217;t mean joining a church or performing a ritual, it means a personal relationship with God. Now pass the giving bucket and credit card forms&#8230;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think post-evangelicalism can arrive soon enough.</p>
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