UPDATE: John Piper takes a look at Wilkerson’s prophecy and responds rightly.
David Wilkerson (Cross and the Switchblade, Times Square Church) is predicting a world changing disaster, and advises that you dust off those cans of Spam you still have from Y2k. It’s getting serious coverage by the unhinged conservative media.
I wrote about Evangelical anxiety about the end of the world in the “Evangelical Anxieties” series in February of 07. Not only have I not changed my mind, I’m more bothered by this than ever.
If eschatology were a multiple choice question, with answers like this:
a) be Christ centered
b) proclaim the Gospel
c) do missions and evangelism
d) look forward to the new heaven and the new earth
e) be idiots
…guess what a large chunk of Evangelicalism would choose?
Evangelicals really can’t get enough of this stuff. Wilkerson- and a thousand other end times prophets like Kim CLement- have predicted similar events before. The “end of the world” section of the bookstore is only the front end of the “end of the world warehouse” that stores all the books that have been predicting the end of the world as long as evangelical authors could find a pen.
In no other area of Christian belief are Evangelicals more irresponsible and bizarrely repetitive. If doing the same thing, over and over and over again with no result, qualifies as a form of mental illness, then we can fill up an entire chain of hospitals. We’re talking about people who will take their eschatology and turn it into a VIDEO GAME here.
The Bible is obviously too simple for Evangelicals at this point. The instincts of some Christians tell them that it never can just mean what it says. So when Jesus says “no one knows, not even the Son,” or “don’t believe people who say they know,” it actually means “Oh yeah, we can know ALL about future events. Just get the right teacher with a big chart and you’re in there.”
Maybe it’s the fact that weird eschatology is the closest thing Christianity has to the kind of material that shows up on the Sci-Fi channel late at night. Bad acting. Cheap special effects. Teenagers caught having sex. Maybe rapture anxiety just plays like a bad B-movie, so Evangelicals get it.
The history of Christian apocalyticism is a story in and of itself. I recommend Jason Boyett’s Pocket Guide To The Apocalypse. Seriously. Get it. Good book with lots of humor and even more information.
I am never more envious of Catholics/Orthodox than on the subjects of evolution and eschatology. Catholics simply don’t lose their minds over this sort of thing. The catechism is calm. If the pope has anything to say about the end of the world, it must be edited out. You’d never hear Benedict going on like Tim Lahaye. (Too bad Art Bell isn’t on Christian radio.)
I’m sure Catholics and Orthodox have their hysterical eschatology committees like every other religion, and I’m sure Fr. So and So is out there in the road with a placard proclaiming the end, but you just get the impression that Catholics are in the “it will all work out” camp, and they aren’t going to get in the bunker with Ned Flanders. Have a beer. Go to a Barbeque. Don’t start screaming. No one likes a religion with people screaming.
Evangelicals don’t seem to blink when they realize that the business of various apocalyptic scenarios is making millions of dollars for people convinced it’s all about to be over. They don’t mind that the people making these prophecies either abuse, don’t use, or no longer need to use a Bible. No, from Thief in the Night to 89 Reasons Christ Will Return in 1989, we just keep on keepin’ on.
My evangelical students read Left Behind with far more interest than they read scripture. If everyone who read Left Behind read ONE other decent Christian book, a Great Awakening would arrive. My students also assume that all Christians buy into this approach to the future. I haven’t met one yet, in 17 years, that has a pastor who even sent clue one that we might not be on the verge of the great tribulation because the stock market is zonked. Judgment house. Hell house. Rapture house. We really need an amusement park to get the whole show together.
Does it occur to most Evangelicals that their brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse? If we have a Columbine or a Katrina, John Hagee is n TV the next night with a chart so big you can see it behind him. Meanwhile, in Sudan, it’s all just another day at the office.
Americans are afraid of the end. They are afraid of losing their life here. They don’t want II Thessalonians 1 to happen. They want to keep running up their credit cards and driving the leased SUV.
Kingdom? New world? End of old world? Resurrection? Christ all in all?
Missional hope? Reach the nations? Gospel to every people group? Bible in every language?
Don’t be bothered by earthquakes, rumors of wars, bank collapses, elections, etc?
Nah. Put in the next Left Behind movie. The one where Kirk Cameron sings “I Wish We’d All Been Ready” to Carpathia.
[Comment ideas: 1) Catholics and Orthodox are allowed one comment to make fun of evangelicals. 2) What's your best story about Evangelicals and Apocalypse fever?]
The two turning points in my views of Pre-Millenialism came from conversations with a retired Baptist pastor who ministered to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. After a careful study of the Scriptural proof-texts for Pre-Trib Rapturism (that didn’t convince me as biblical), I looked at the people factor. What I saw in EV Pre-Millenialism was an inherent anti-Semitism: the Jews get fried during the Tribulation while Christians enjoy a banquet in heaven where, presumably, they can’t hear the cries to God from the recalcitrant Jews. Then I read the dire warning in Romans 11 about the hubris of Gentile Christians toward Jews. Then I decided EV P-M is callously egocentric and ultimately destructive of the Gospel.
Paul, do you not think that it’s a bit anti-Semitic to allege that the church has taken over Israel’s blessings, and that their status as God’s chosen people has been usurped by the church? To THIS notion dispensationalists have always said a resounding, “No! God still has a glorious plan of redemption for Israel” — and this redemption is spoken of in Romans 11.
5 yrs ago when I first became believer, the topic of eschatology was almost immediately forced upon me. It perplexed me that so many revered people of Christendom could disagree ( so vehemently ) with each other on absolutes.
Eventually I came to the realization, that Biblical prophecy wasn’t there so that we could predict the future, but that when the Future did happen it would only validate the authority and power of God’s word and ultimately Himself. After all it is the Revelation of Christ is it not ?
So when People ask my about my view on End Times events. I simply just say.
“I believe they are going to happen”
it is the only right answer.
& That is the Beauty of it. All God wants is our Trust in the matter.
First of all, I don’t think quoting the following scripture quite qualifies as the “end times hysteria” you’re trying to make it out to be.
“And Moses said to the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will show you today…The Lord shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace†(Exodus 14:13-14).
Second, where is this book promotion you mentioned? David Wilkerson is making his most recent book a free download on his website. You on the other hand offer a link to none other than the Michael Spencer wish list at Amazon.com and a direct link to purchase a book from your website for the low cost of $49.95. wow.. Talk about the pot calling the crystal stemware black.
Might I suggest that while you’re sitting there bashing a Christian brother (you are still a Christian, right? Or have you reformed that as well?) consider the fact that everything you’ve said here has been repeated for centuries and can be summed up with five little words. “Surely you will not die”.
Have a beer indeed. I don’t think that “Mighty Bright XtraFlex2 Clip-On Light” is the kind of light you need.
Whoa, Brother (Sister?) Kix. Maybe you could turn the steam down a tad.
Well Chris, I suggest you read Rev. 3:15-16. It was a message specifically given to those who have chosen to “turn the steam down”.
Interesting blog. I’m still formulating an opinion on what you have to say on the few issues I have read; however, I will give you my take on the eschatology deal.
I was raised in a S. Baptist church and had my fill of dispensational teachings. Though I agree with some premises of dispensationalism, I don’t necessarily agree with their view of eschatology. Frankly, I refuse to argue with a pre-tribber, post-tribber, pre-millenialist or whatever for several reasons.
1. Scriptural backing. Everyone of every view has their own scripture base for believing as they do. Essentially, one can proof-text their way into any particular view by picking and choosing certain verses and putting them together into a patchwork eschatology. Seems more like eisegesis rather than exegesis to me.
2. Jesus was clear that no one would know the day or hour. Yes, he did give us general signs (wars, rumors of wars, etc.) but by what benchmark do we judge these signs? How do we know when the particular wars we see are the ones that are to herald the second coming?
3. Many of those I refuse to argue with are trying to use the rapture as an escape hatch. Much like the Jews in the Movie, Fiddler on the Roof. At the end of the movie, as the residents of the small town were told they would have to leave because of their faith (presumably), one young tailor asks the Rabbi if this isn’t a good time for the messiah to come. The Rabbi’s very wise response was to state they would have to wait somewhere else.
4. If I am not ready to die right now, then I am not ready for the second coming. Many of my fellow evangelicals forget that.
5. Too many times we interpret the Bible based based on the mass media. Perhaps we should take what the mass media is feeding us and run it through the filter of a biblical worldview. Take a more holistic approach to the issues we face in the world and quit looking at how things affect us. Rather, should we not be looking at the world in the way that Jesus looked at Jerusalem when he wept over it? He grieved over it and then went and died for it. He didn’t hunker down in his holy bunker, but did something and commanded his followers to act also.
Sorry, started to get off on a tangent there.
Like I said, I’m not sure yet where I stand on some of what I have read from you, but I do think you are bringing up some points that we as “evangelicals” need to face.
I’ll keep reading and maybe comment a bit!
Kix, I applaud you for your zeal, but sometimes if you’re too abrasive in your tone people will ignore the message you’re conveying. We’re all (mostly at least) Christians here. I’m just saying that a little civility goes a long way.
To turn the tables (and apply another convenient proof text — Matthew 7:12), if you were in the wrong at some point, and say, a ’1′ = no steam and ’10′ = full steam, would you rather someone come up to you and begin rebuking you at an 8? … or would you like them to start at a 2 or 3 and work up from there?
Chris, I believe Jesus set the tone between 1-10 when he said; “Get thee behind me Satan”. Because unlike the fluff & stuff savior many would like to paint him as, Jesus was not one to mix words and had no qualms about showing his anger with those he rebuked.
Jesus’ own words to His disciples stated that no one knows the “day or the hour” of the “day of the Lord.” (Mark 13) Yet He also gave immediately the parable of the fig tree beginning to blossom. Paul writes (I Thess 5:4) that we are not in darkness that we should be overtaken as a thief. I John by John the apostle states that “he that has this hope purifies himself”
Most prophecy is written to God’s people under persecution to give them hope and confidence in God’s overruling providence. Have there been abuses of the dispensational interpretation, yes; does it deserve the kind of ridicule and abuse evident in the preceding posts, in my opinion, no.
Both streams of interpretation rest on the basic method of biblical interpretation used. There is ample scholarship on both sides of the debate; what is needed, I believe, is a spirit of humility that recognizes that we all “see through a glass darkly”
but are all members of the same body! I don’t apologize for taking the dispensational view and I respect fellow believers who take a different interpretation. Bottom line, Jesus is coming again and His admonition to us is to be ready.
I’m a little disturbed by some broad-brush characterizations of “pre-trib” believers. Seems like we are saying that they all believe in cataclysmic events like the burning of New York and Y2K, etc., having a survivalist mentality. Although I believe in the catching away mentioned in I Thess. 4:16-18 and that it will occur before the tribulation, preserving believing Christians from the wrath to come mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, I don’t share the former beliefs/attitudes. In fact, the next great event in Bible prophecy IS the rapture itself. When it will happen and just how bad things will get on earth before that, during the falling away of the church, we don’t know. However, we do know that the rapture itself begins the tribulation period and that afterward, the world will believe a lie concerning the event. I think all of the “end-of-the-world” scenarios being painted today in the secular and sacred realm simply serve to inoculate the world against the truth of God’s coming judgment, turning them from the urgency of personal repentance/salvation and preparing them to believe the lie.
I used to be a pre-trib rapture guy. These days I have moved to a “pan-trib” position. I know that God is in control and it will “pan” out in His time. I find it harder to agree with the pre-trib view of the rapture precisely because it is mostly held in the opinion that God wants to spare His people from the tough times. It sounds remarkably like the prosperity gospel to me and I wonder how our brothers and sisters living in persecuted areas would feel about such a notion. Doesn’t the Bible say that those days will be “shortened for the sake of the elect” or something to that effect? (Matthew 24:22) God did tell us to be watching for His return and He did give indicators for greater watchfulness, but we don’t have a date set in stone nor a promise that we will be getting out before it gets bad.
That said, thanks Martha for the warning about Ireland sinking. I will be watching for that “global warming” thing more now.
Dispensationalism, like all other theological constructs, has its strengths and weaknesses. I think the problem for us as humans is that we tend to overly attach ourselves to a theological framework and become so emotionally vested in it that we won’t recognize those weaknesses. I’ve seen this happen when talking about eschatology. I’ve personally known people who hold to the pre-trib view so strongly that they will break fellowship with anyone who holds a differing view.
I somewhat take the attitude of the late Walter Martin who constantly told those who held a pre-trib view that while he disagreed with them, he actually hoped they were right as he had no desire to go through a tribulation period. While I don’t hold strongly to any view on this issue, I hope the pre-trib view is correct.
I don’t know if it will happen in my lifetime or not, but if I am ready to meet Christ by my death, then I will be ready for his return.
If there is always a Christian preaching “the end of the world is nigh” the sad fact is the very last one will be right.
If it wasn’t for reading the headline about Wilkersons message, I wouldn’t have found this great site, for that I thank him. Coming from an evangelical background I have asked many of the questions raised here about our cultural christianity, and I’m not convinced of any theory of end times. But, I didn’t understand Wilkersons statement as referring to the end times, he’d just had visions of fires in major cities and was burdened by it. Should he have just kept it to himself? I’m giving him a break for now, but will be interested to see if he’s made errors. I guess time will tell, but it’s never unwise to be prepared, you have to admit the times are getting strange in the USA.
Verity
You stated “In fact, the next great event in Bible prophecy IS the rapture itself.” and “However, we do know that the rapture itself begins the tribulation period”
The fact is that what you state is not a fact, but merely the eschatological theory you have been taught. Throughout the history of the church this has not been believed, and today is not believed by most of Christendom. What the Bible does tell us is that Jesus is coming again. That is fact.
Michael,
There is no denying that with Israel becoming a nation again in 1948, the clock started ticking with regard to the end of the age. Does that mean Christians panic? Of course not. It means, if anything, we get excited and expectant.
I just started reading David Jeremiah’s “What In The World Is Going On?” The signs so far of our times–albeit sobering in some cases–are exciting.
No one knows the hour but the Father. But we can recognize the signs of the times.
Joe.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned RH Benson’s “Lord of the World”, a Catholic end-times novel. It’s a good read. The end is a little vague and mystical, but it seems to be “amillenial” to use the modern category, although there certainly is tribulation before the finale. Protestantism has ceased to exist, having merged with Freemasonry, and the Church is only a sliver of its former size. I believe the world ends as the President of the World’s (who bears no slight resemblance to Mr.Obama…) forces move in on Armaggedon, where the Pope secretly relocated after Rome was obliterated.
A guilty pleasure!
(I’m not InternetMonk)
Chris, in respect to Wilkerson, these prognostications, while not technically End-of-the-World, are very much in line with the EotW hysteria that tends to be common in various (not small) circles.
Yeah, technically Y2K wasn’t EotW either, but it fell in line with the general message of “Incredible Calamity is Upon Us!!!!!!!!!!!!” A very sensationalistic message.
Wilkerson has a lot of good aspects and does a wonderful work for Christ, but in the whole area of “Incredible Calamity is upon Us!!!” he is a bit of a whack. He has made a good number of those sorts of calamitous predictions, but none have come true. After the first couple, he stopped putting firm timelines on them, but didn’t stop making the claims. Without timelines, he can just keep saying that it hasn’t arrived yet, and can never be shown wrong.
Other than his periodic excursions into predicting imminent calamity, he has worked tirelessly as a servant of Christ. He has my deep respect in MANY ways.
To this post all I can say is amen!
I am so sick of this…. I go to a church that has invited Kim Clement and many of what I would call the “Colorado Prophets” and “North Carolina Prophets” in and one of the recent ones goes into great detail on how certain hebrew letters are formed as if they have some secret meaning and blatently ignores the plain meaning of basic scripture.
Here is my delimma. I love to see the physical manifest presence of God through the Holy Spirit but it seems all the evangelical churches are so into “control schemes” and unbelif that God would actually interact with His people that they shut down anything that has an edge to it. On the other hand churches that are open to this are open to all sorts of junk including prosperity gospel, demons in Christians and sensationalism. Oh that I could find a Church that had a strong basis in doctrine AND a genuine openeess to the Holy Spirit!
Kix,
The Lord set the tone between 1-10 but YOU my brother are not the Lord. None of us are. None of us has the right to assume the role of the Lord. Besides, God does not use a one-size-fits-all approach.
Example 1: The Lord dealt with Peter (“Get behind me, Satan!”) more harshly BECAUSE Peter was supposed to be the leader, and leaders in the Church will be held more accountable than the sheep. Also, the Lord KNEW Peter, like he KNOWS each and every one of His flock. None of us can presume such of others.
Example 2: When the woman was about to be stoned, he intervened. His words? “And neither do I judge you; Now, go and sin no more.” Where do you think he was on the scale of 1-10 in that incident?
Being a Catholic (born into the faith, but re-evangelized to it in my 30s) I leave you with this from St. Francis of Asissi which I beleive is grossly misunderstood: “Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words.” Where I think it’s misunderstood is it’s not saying don’t spread the written word of God. What it IS saying is LIVE the written word of God. Turning people OFF is not living the written word of God. If you LIVE it, and practice the Christian virtue of Caritas love (love one another…) by taking up your cross, and taking care of your fellow “man” etc. and not presuming to judge his soul and people are still turned off, then they truly are those who “hear but do not understand.”
But…if you persist in your self-righteous blasting of people that you have no idea of who they are and where they come from, then you have become no different than the bishops whose skulls “pave the floor of hell” (per St. John Chrysostom [gk: Golden Mouth])for failure to preach the truth.
I think you’ve taken phrases like “God hardened their hearts” so literally, when it’s actually a hebrew idiom. Men harden their own hearts. We shouldn’t be an obstacle to their having a change of heart.
When St. Monica went to her bishop, St. Ambrose to ask what she should do about her son who would later become St. Augustine, who was at that time a heretic and was living in sin, Ambrose told her to “Spend less time talking to Augustine about God, and more talking to God about Augustine.” You can figure out the rest of the story.
There are any number of premillenialists who have made wildly inaccurate predictions and suggested we jump on their bandwagon … but I haven’t forgotten Gary North on y2k. Postmillenialists have made some crazy and inaccurate predictions, too, so let’s be mindful of that.
I’m anything but a dispensationalist and wish Wilkerson hadn’t made any dire predictions but I’m glad Piper’s being so gentle in his disagreement and now is a good time to remind ourselves that, whatever our eschatological views we, can find ourselves being anxious about things we don’t need to be anxious about.
I was introduced to the possibility of non-dispensationalist eschatology by an Assemblies of GOd youth pastor. Seriously, I’m not making that up. As he explained it to me and others, the only things we can be sure about are Christ’s return and that we could all be wrong. My personal formulation has been that the promise of CHrist is assured in Acts 1 so clearly we can be generous in our disagreement about interpreting Revelation.
I find myself troubled by the tone of the comments here, as it seems to me to be Christians bashing other Christians. If God is infinite and we are finite, infallible and we are fallible, omniscient and we see through a glass darkly (very darkly), then we walk a fine line between ignorance and arrogance. None of us should claim we have the whole truth concerning any doctrine or theology. It just isn’t possible. Nor do I claim to be free of personal bias. That Jesus will return, I trust and believe, otherwise our faith is in vain. But let us grant grace to our brothers and sisters who do not think as we do. We do not have to agree, and we can say so. But we can’t speak of them as fools if they indeed love the Lord Jesus. Can we?
I do believe that Dr. Wilkerson was talking about an event in certain places rather than “the end”. But remember Noah preached for all those years that he was building the ark, yet NO ONE listened to him, when the end finally came. Maybe instead of casting aspersions on our brothers & sisters in Christ concerning their opinions on the END we should be preaching that THERE IS AN END and we want peoples everywhere to know Jesus before the END…whenever it come.
First of all, I would like to defend David Wilkerson. He is a man of God and his ministries have helped thousands of people. He and his family have suffered great physical and emotional trials, but they have all clung to the Lord and His word, encouraging many of us going through similar difficult trials. He deserves respect. He definitely believes what he has written; he wants us to be prayerful, not panicked. He is NOT afraid of what will come, and he does not want us to be either. Please have some respect for him.
Also be very careful of being judgmental of “ordinary” Christians. My parents (89 & 93 respectively) have lived godly lives and are looking forward to being with Jesus soon. They’ve done nothing you would consider important, I’m sure. But when we go to put my dad to bed and I watch him reading his Bible, I am so encouraged by his faith. We should all live such “ordinary” lives.
When I begin feeling that I know more than most people, the Holy Spirit always reminds me that Jesus said we had to come as a little child.
Blessings.
Oh the timing! I’m currently editing a class curriculum about heaven and hell and end times for a prominent church in my area (that I don’t attend–they are a client as I’m a freelance writer). I couldn’t disagree more with the theology. And Larkin is quoted extensively in this class “book”. I’d never heard of him before, but I have NO desire to read his work.
Joe,
Just wanted to let you know that I have a copy of a Mass for the End of the World. It’s sung beautifully by 4 anonymous women. You have to get a copy of it. It is just great ! ! !
(it was written in 1000 AD)
I call b.s. on Alan’s assertion that Focus on the Family thinks the world will end in 2012 and that Obama is the anti-Christ.
Please post a link where Dobson of FoF says the either the world will end in 2012 -or- obabma is the antichrist.
If you don’t like Focus on the Family, please post genuine reasons, not made-up allegations.
Thanks,
Bill
I have a lot of respect for Wilkerson and have read many of his books. I even visited his Times Square Church once when I was in Manhattan. From that one visit, they seemed sound. There was no hint of sensationalism in the service.
Earlier, I had a lot of trouble with Wilkerson’s harsh approach to Christianity and what being an authentic Christian is, but I noticed a change happening in the 90′s that made him apply a bit more grace and less judgementalism. I do know that his ministries have impacted multiple thousands of people and don’t doubt his belief in Christ.
As for his prophecies, remember he is from a pentecostal background and that is a very strong tenet of the pentecostal stream of thought. Here is where I depart from most dispensational belief in that I don’t believe that Scripture teaches that prophecy has ended; however, I don’t look at prophecy as just foretelling the future. The more important aspect of prophecy is forth-telling of the Word. Has the foretelling ended? I don’t think so, but to me, if a person decides to take on the mantle, they need to be willing to face the responsibilities and consequences such as having the prophecies tested. While I don’t believe we should follow the Old Testament prescription of stoning prophets who don’t have 100% accuracy, it is incumbent upon us to reject those who prophesy in God’s name and are not accurate.
My first test is to determine if the “prophecy” violates Scripture. I also look to see if the prediction really fits into that realm or if it is just common sense results of some other actions. Further, if the prophecy is something that the prophet himself can bring about (thus showing it is not a divine happening), I look on it with a jaundiced eye. Finally, if it passes the other tests, all I can do is wait to see if it occurs.
The problem I have with Wilkerson’s current statements is that what he is predicting could easily be the natural consequence of a deteriorating economy. I’m not saying it isn’t of God, but like Piper, I have some concerns about it.
Generally speaking, Orthodox laugh at these people. However, on a visit to Mt. Athos, I met several monks who–independently of one another–volunteered the information that barcodes contain the “666″ of the antichrist. I think this comes from 1970′s-era American Protestantism. This is by no means the only crazy theory I heard from Athonite monks (one of whom managed to cobble together something involving the Jews, Atlantis, and the Baconian authorship of Shakespear’s plays). But again, most rank-and-file members would laugh at these people.
I read the first four “Left Behind” books and have to agree with Penthouse, whose review was titled “It’s the end of the world and the writing is bad.” The movies were all right, in the same way that Superman is all right–once you suspend disbelief and accept the premise, the rest of the movie makes a fair amount of sense.
Oh yeah–and I found ONE example of “Christian fiction” (not counting Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Melville, etc.) that was actually good. “The Revolt” (forget the author), about a near-future religious-motivated secession of Virginia and North Carolina from the U.S.. Unusually for such fare, there were no “good” or “evil” sides, just foolish people and their venal politicians.
What is my best story regarding end-times fever?
Personally, it’s becoming a Christian with Whisenant’s 88 Reasons book as the backdrop, and having that constantly on my mind.
The rapture was supposed to bring peace and comfort, but somehow, being zipped up in the sky at 1,000 miles per hour and ripped out of my clothes didn’t set my mind at ease…
I also remember walking down the street, looking east, and half-expecting the sky to peel back like a scroll, to hear some kind of horn and see a 1,000-mile-high Jesus step out just before I got zipped up
Imonk…
So right…has it occurred to anyone that Christ is reigning RIGHT NOW, seated at the right hand of the Father? Has it occurred to anyone that our brothers and sisters across the world are living in THE Tribulation? Has it occurred to anyone to ask why the church in the US is not undergoing similar hostility…the world hated our Lord and He has promised us that it will hate us as well. We should be suprised at the comfort that we have and should be asking ourselves why that is…
Honorable mention:
* The use of credit cards leading to a mindset of acceptance of the Mark of the Beast in one’s right hand or forehead
* Barcodes on products allegedly equalling 666
* The color eye on your TV harboring a secret one-way camera in which the Government is watching your every move (honestly, though, would the Government even want to look at the couch potatoes munching on their Doritos and guzzling their beers while watching ESPN or Lost or The Office?)
* Anything regarding the United Nations
* King Juan Carlos of Spain being the Antichrist (why him?!?!?!?)
* The Beast computer allegedly in the heart of Brussels, Belgium, said to contain every bit of information known to man.
I love these
“Charts” someone needs to animate them!
http://www.armageddonbooks.com/chartgift.html
Wilkerson may indeed be out-of-bounds with this or other past impressions from the Holy Spirit, but I have read comments scattered across the Internet from people who had knowledge of his church through a friend/relative who attended there before 9/11. They reported that Wilkerson & his church spent much time in intercessory prayer for what difficulty they sensed was coming on their city of New York a few weeks before it happened. I can’t prove this, but it is interesting. The good thing about Wilkerson’s post is that he claimed that it would “soon.” So, the clock is ticking and we will find out soon, one way or another.
It saddens me to see Christians making fun of Christians. Why would you align yourself with the world to persecute thoses whome the Lord has paid for with His blood?
Whether they are right or wrong in their view of the end times. Did Paul make fun of his brothers and sisters in Thessalonica? No, he gave them 2 Thessalonians explain how things will pan out.
Does Matthew 5:22 not mean anything to you who insist on casting judgement on those with beliefs that do not match yours?
Interesting conversation. I was kind of surprised though that it was 10 comments deep before anyone noticed that Wilkinson wasn’t preaching the end of the world–but just a local disaster. His ‘prophecy’ had nothing at all to do with end times eschatology. Its like everyone is too busy jumping on the “I’m not on THAT bandwagon, badwagon”, to have read through the original article. Kind of funny isn’t it?
“Its like everyone is too busy jumping on the “I’m not on THAT bandwagon, badwagonâ€, to have read through the original article.”
That is true, Mary t. The competiveness of America is in the church. Everyone likes to think they are better than the next guy based on what they “know”. And not being “quick to read and slow to type”, they begin to cast stones with their words.
As the scripturs say, “knowledge puffs up but love builds up”. Guess which one the LORD is interested in?
“Catholics and Orthodox are allowed one comment to make fun of evangelicals.”
Ok. Teehee, you guys are weird.
(This is only in retribution for all the years of being told that I’m “not really Christian.”)
On a more serious note – “[our] brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse”
How true. We ALL need to work harder to acknowledge the true suffering of all people around the world and hopefully work to ease the burden to the degree that is within our power to change.
I’ve read through most all of these replies and find it all very interesting. I for one have found that this whole “end of times” hype by our evangelical brothers and sisters is a great thing for the Catholic Church. We don’t preach any of it nor does the Church teach any of it. Just be ready at all times because any day could be your day. At my parish we’ve had many come to the fullness of the faith after being so disappointed and unfulfilled in Evangelical churches. This Easter our parish will welcome over 100 new into the full communion of the faith.
May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
“The competiveness of America is in the church. Everyone likes to think they are better than the next guy based on what they “knowâ€.”
So true! I was very gratified to see my daughter’s church in the Houston area take time to pray for another local congregation every Sunday. Their belief is that other churches are not their competitors, but fellow soldiers and ambassadors.
I’m a former pastor and one thing that used to always grate on my nerves was the competitiveness of our sister churches. It was really shown in what the second largest Baptist church in our town did with their name when they changed it from Immanuel Baptist to Exciting Immanuel Baptist Church! It probably got them some more menbers, but when the church is growing by stealing members from other churches, is it really growing? If the post-Pentecost church had to rely on swiping other church members, it would have stayed at 120 rather than the over 3 thousand it grew to in one day as they had to grow through conversions (salvation).
Another thing that really irks me is church advertising, especially when it hits radio or TV and you hear some announcer saying, “Come here the dynamic preaching of Rev. Dr. Brother. Bishop Speaks A Lot, which will change your life!” Well you can tell that someone is full of humility there!
All of this to attract the fickle churchgoer from whatever church he or she happens to be sitting in today. Thank God not all churches are like that, but too many really are.
It seems that many of David Wilkerson’s critics have overlooked his 1998 published booklet “America’s Last Call (on the brink of a financial holocaust) “, which spoke of the disappearance of wealth, and the crumbling revealing of the inadequate foundations of the debt driven economy.
Regarding true prophesy: we westerners look for things to resolve within a near term news cycle or so. Biblical prophesy is not usually so. Unless a so-called prophet mentions a date, I would think that the prudent observer would watch and see.
On a more serious note – “[our] brothers and sisters around the world sort of LIVE in the Apocalypse†— CatholicCollie
i.e. they’re LIVING in a good approximation of Left Behind instead of in the prologue (and finding it Very Exciting).
I for one have found that this whole “end of times†hype by our evangelical brothers and sisters is a great thing for the Catholic Church. We don’t preach any of it nor does the Church teach any of it. Just be ready at all times because any day could be your day. At my parish we’ve had many come to the fullness of the faith after being so disappointed and unfulfilled in Evangelical churches. — Born Again Catholic
As did I after being badly burned by Left Behind Fever. (Ran into some crazy Catholics since I swam back across the Tiber, but all in all it’s been a much better fit.)
This Easter our parish will welcome over 100 new into the full communion of the faith. — Born Again Catholic
Woo. My parish usually has between half a dozen and a dozen.
I’m a former pastor and one thing that used to always grate on my nerves was the competitiveness of our sister churches. It was really shown in what the second largest Baptist church in our town did with their name when they changed it from Immanuel Baptist to Exciting Immanuel Baptist Church! — Wendell
Don’t know about how the term relates to churches, but in women seeking men, a guy who gets described as Exciting!(TM!) is often a user and abuser.
And is the exclamation point yours (end of sentence) or theirs (official part of their name)? If the latter, start worrying; they have jumped the shark.
Honorable mention:
* Barcodes on products allegedly equalling 666
Anyone remember the “IBM 3666″ point-of-sale system Christian Urban Legend from the early 1980s?
* Anything regarding the United Nations
I’ve always figured they were the flip side of Globalists, who were actually closet Trekkies. How so? Because Trekkies KNOW that Star Trek is history written in advance and the UN is destined to become (gasp, with trembling lips) THE FEDERATION!
* King Juan Carlos of Spain being the Antichrist (why him?!?!?!?)
Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare, 1975. Traced back after the fact to the Jehovah’s Witnesses though none of the radio preachers breathlessly proclaiming “THIS IS IT!” at the time ever admitted to it. Wilkerson’s apparent knockoff of the date 2012 from the Mayan Calendar Hysteria is just the latest incarnation of this bandwagon.
* The Beast computer allegedly in the heart of Brussels, Belgium, said to contain every bit of information known to man.
Which actually originated in a work of fiction (an End Times novel, actually) and made the jump from true fiction to false fact around the third or fourth player of the game “Telephone”. Kind of like the “Demon-Possessed Cabbage Patch Dolls” that made the jump from National Enquirer to 700 Club way back when, or the Onion interview with J.K.Rowling.
I heard of an incident in a class at the Bible college I attended. The class was talking about the rapture and the “last trumpet sounding.†One of the guys had fallen asleep. The professor had everyone leave their papers and pens right where they were and leave the room. One of the students got his trumpet and blew one long blast just outside the classroom door. They said the poor guy woke up, looked around, and turned white as a sheet. — Fred
Hee hee hee…
I do have a story though, early 80’s in school, I had a prof who was ectstatic over the fact that the world buzzard population was booming, sure that God was preparing for Armageddon. heh. — Dad of Homeschoolers
That’s a new one on me, and I thought I’d heard all the “proofs” during my time on the inside.
Of course I had another prof who was sure Jesus changed the water into grape juice, but that’s another story. — Dad of Homeschoolers
That’s just another salvo in the ongoing Battle of the Booze. IMonk’s written a few postings on that.
The biblical message – the insruction of Christ – is that one “must be born again” and the catholic church teaches no such message so the catholic church should not be included as truly Christian. I speak as one who was catholic for over two decades and was never given the real/the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ, but was rather taught to obey the catholic church and try to be good enough in my own “filthy rags” to somehow merit Heaven or oh purgatory when i died (Isa. 64:6). So, it should be cited, that like myself, millions upon millions of lost souls out of the catholic church – people who never in the catholic church even heard the real Gospel – have been now born again and therefore came out of her (Rev. 18:4). Any wrong things done by misguided “evangelicals” does nothing to validate the myriad of falsehoods espoused and taught by the catholic church. “Ye must be born again.” (John 3:3, 7)
I disagree. Wilkerson wrote several books YEARS ago on this subject predicting, FROM HIS READING OF SCRIPTURE, not from any message from God, what we could expect. And, gee…it’s played out. Dave Wilkerson never claimed to be a prophet, but he does claim to be a person who studies scripture and can apply it’s historical perspective (with the scriptural-based premise that God doesn’t change) in how God dealt with past societies and how God will deal with OUR society.
Here here, Michael – I completely agree. Hey, I’m not sure if you got my email or not – my friend Kevin Beck penned a compact little tome that offers a biblically-rooted but decidedly calm eschatology. He’s offering it for free download at his booksite, This Book Will Change Your World. I’d be fascinated to know your thoughts on it.
To Todd,
If you were baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, as it says in scriptures, using the Trinitarian formula, then you were “gennatha anothen” (the greek words) which may mean “born again” but is probably more correctly translated “born from above.”
To say the Church of Rome does not teach this is falsehood. I’m saddened, but not surprised, that you believe this. Remember what Peter said of baptism: “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Also note the strong symbolism of the water baptism of Jesus by John in the Jordan. Jesus was baptized, then the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in the form of a dove. Then the voice of God declares from heaven “This is my beloved Son” (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). In like manner, we are adopted as Sons of God in baptism. In John 3:5, Christ speaks of being born of water and spirit. This is what Rome teaches of baptism, and it comes straight out of Holy Scripture. It is in baptism that we are “born again” or “born from above.” After Christ taught that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22).
*This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, “In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ” (NIV).
*In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” When Paul was converted, he was told, “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16).
*Much of this is excerpted directly from http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp
Hey you made me laugh with this one .Its funny especially the Hadge and the chart.
Now unto serious matters:
As always every arm of Christianity claim to have the truth.What is scary suppose the truth is there and many mist it because of everyone else claims “WE HAVE IT THE TRUTH”. Does that mean that the truth as far as eschatology is none existent?
Now that is something that’s not good i would like to be in a position to know what is going on
Is that the God we serve a God that keeps us in the dark or dim light ?
I say no.
God warned Noah ,He warned Sodom,
Is there a clear distinctive warning God has given us now ?
Am not Going to use your blog subject any theology but the bible says:
2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This does not sound like a God who hides salvivic information from us.
I hope i am allowed to say these things on this blog. Scripture says Nebuchadnezzar had magicians but only one lead by God (Daniel who wasnt a magician but one who feared God )had the answers given to him by God.
Elijah was up against many false prophets but these men cut themselves all day calling on their gods to bring down fire from Heaven.Non succeed ,Elijah had them soak the alters down and he called upon The on True God the Creator of the Heaven and the Earth.And God responded gladly all was burned up water alter and sacrifice.
Note there will always be false prophets,why ? We wrestle not against flesh and blood but principalities an power.The reason that all True prophets have a an opposing force is because the adversary does not love souls. He seeks to devour all of us Ezekiel 22:25, 1Peter 5:8 .
The only way to distract is to implant much error with much truth.
The truth is out there in Gods Word Daniel and Revelation. No need to look in the direction of modern day Israel.Look at American the lamb like beast and the other beast in which the Harlot sits on which sits on seven hills/mountains.
End time truth is out there,seek it it can be found.