Riffs x2: 05:06:09 Who Will Dominate the Culture? and What’s The Evangelism Problem?
May 6, 2009 by iMonk
NOTE: Sorry to have to turn moderation on folks, but this thread is too risky.
UPDATE: Ed Stetzer sends this along: Todd Johnson of the World Christian Database provided the following response: “This video seems to be making its rounds. It is full of misinformation and misinterpretation of data. We provide more reasonable current figures and projections of Europe’s Muslims in both the World Christian Database and World Religion Database. Jenkin’s book God’s Continent critiques the position that Europe is becoming Muslim. That book is probably the best single counter to this video.”
A few comments on two somewhat related posts about the state of things evangelical as we ponder the Coming Evangelical Collapse.
Someone sent me this Youtube video about the likelihood of Christians becoming minorities in countries dominated by a growing Muslim population.
The implications for Christians: evangelize Muslims and have babies.
Christians- and Jews- have been minorities for much of their history. The New Testament would be a completely different book if it were written to a majority Christian culture.
I can’t think of a single word that Jesus ever said that hinted at a goal of “cultural domination.” With all due respect to some of my Reformed, post-millennial, paedo-Baptist brethren, I don’t see that we’re called to fight a cultural battle by having children.
I’ll get some criticism for saying this, but there’s a racist tinge to this video that I don’t like. I know a lot of Muslims and it breaks my heart to see this kind of material tossed out there smearing them as a threat to “our” culture.
Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
That’s not to discount the influence of Christians, their children and their impact on culture as worthless. It’s not, but it’s simply not the emphasis of Jesus or the early Christians as they functioned in their cultures. Jesus never sounded like the ominous narrator of this video.
The extent to which we influence or “dominate” culture seems irrelevant in scripture, since the salvation of the world is the coming Kingdom of God. “Christian culture” points to and participates in that approaching new heaven and new earth, but our hope is completely in Jesus. Why does the video assume that we’re invested in a particular racial or religious cultural expression?
When the culture warriors begin giving Christians directions on what is important, this is what it is going to sound like. Not the Great Commission or the Jesus movement, but a fearful, exclusionary response to losing cultural influence and experiencing possible persecution. “Immigration” is a word that couldn’t be spoken more ominously in this film.
The response of the church to whatever cultural situation it finds itself in is to proclaim and live the Gospel with integrity. At the heart of that calling is worship, but the outcome of that calling is missions, evangelism and church planting. Our response to the growth of Islam or secularism is to live faithfully, proclaim and teach consistently, evangelize boldly and church plant sacrificially.
So now that we are on the subject of evangelism, what are we to make of Ed Stetzer’s recent announcement that Baptists have heard all the recent emphases on evangelism and declining baptisms….and done less of both? We’re a denomination still in decline, reaching the point where applying the brakes won’t stop the free fall.
I know Southern Baptists have some evangelistic people and churches, but on the whole, we are becoming one of those denominations that fires preachers for not being evangelistic and fires preachers for trying to make us evangelistic. We’re going to apparently pay good people like Stetzer, etc to tell us what we have no real plan to pay any attention to.
A friend recently (within the last two months) took a church of nearly a hundred members, and he reports they apparently haven’t had a new member in 6 years. Good people, he says. They are educated above average, love the church, love the Lord. In Southern Baptist terms, I’d imagine they are all “good witnesses.”
But it- evangelism- is not happening. I’m really wondering where it does happen. The growing churches I know are either sweeping up Christians with church backgrounds, rebaptizing the church or baptizing lots of children. Few are experiencing any kind of adult evangelistic/conversion growth, and almost none from the efforts of laypersons.
A lot of ink is pouring forth in SBC land in regard to what we aren’t doing. I’d suggest that we are at a place where talking to pastors at conferences and on blogs about what we aren’t doing is going to bring about a lot of the same results we’ve seen: more decline. The vast majority of Southern Baptists- and most other evangelicals– aren’t really touched by that conversation, because they believe evangelism and church growth happen when you have the right pastor and that’s the whole game.
Of course, the theological wing of evangelicals clearly believes that if everyone will line up behind the right understanding of the Gospel, then things will change. Verse by verse preaching, complementarianism and plenty of theology- that will do it. I’m lukewarm on that prospect as far as it applies to evangelicalism as a whole. I’m all for making the Gospel clear and central, but I don’t have any illusions about how that’s going to be received by millions of people in my denomination or anywhere else.
No, the problem is who we have become. I think most of us know this. We knew it when we watched Penn Gillette’s video about the Christian who was willing to confront and proselytize him. We aren’t that guy and we aren’t those people. Oh, we want somebody to be like that, or we want someone to think of a way to evangelize people that we can participate in with a generous financial contribution. But most of us aren’t people who actually try to influence other people toward faith.
Are we universalists? Relativists? Postmodernists? Emergers who have abandoned a belief in hell? Your guess is as good as mine, but I don’t think we are missing information or even motivation. We’re missing the key component of reality. We (a lot of us) REALLY aren’t evangelistic people in the SBC anymore. Study it all you want, but something just isn’t there.
This is where I’m surprised that the pundits commenting on this situation aren’t willing to connect the dots. A big reason that the average evangelical isn’t evangelistic is the focus on the issues and tactics of the culture war. According to the culture war advocates, “those unbelievers” are the enemies of Christians and the kind of Christian culture we believe we are supposed to fight for. Are atheists, gays, Democrats, progressives and non-evangelicals in America actually people evangelicals are looking at as potential Christians? Give me a break.
The people in my friend’s church who haven’t seen a new member in 6 years? I’ll guarantee you that the discussion in those Sunday School classes are about how hard it is to be a good Christian witness in these terrible times with the liberals running the country. Being a witness = opposing the agenda of the anti-Christians trying to destroy the culture and corrupt our children.
The new “evangelism” is the culture war. We aren’t winning souls. We’re protecting out culture. If the other side wants to admit we’re right and come on over, great. (To see that mindset, read the Andrew Marin discussion thread.)
When I was a pastor, I got this great idea of starting a Bible study in a large, crowded trailer park near our church. There were a couple of hundred pre-fab homes, lots of families and I wanted to find someone willing to let our church host a Bible study one night a week. Simple outreach, right? No cost. No controversy. Local missions, etc.
So, I promoted this every way I knew how, and I’m pretty good at promotion after being a youth minister for all those years. My church- a church that had assured me they wanted nothing so much as to reach their community and grow- looked back at me with the deer in the headlights look you get when you’ve suggested we actually go knock on doors in the community.
Only one church member came out to help me. (One deacon, as I recall. God bless him.) It was amazing what would come up on a person’s schedule when you said the words “trailer park” in the context of the church’s mission. For most of a month, I covered that trailer park a couple of days a week, knocking on doors, finding no interest and getting no help. I stopped harping and made it my project.
Then I not only discovered a home willing to host the Bible study. I found a family- an entire family with kids- willing to visit our church.
They were, as we would have said, “trailer park people,” and our church was middle class, blue collar; all very proud to not be as low as those “trailer park people.” I should have noticed that no one from our church lived there, but back in those days, my optimism occasionally got out of hand and I missed the obvious. These people weren’t from our side of the tracks.
Do I have to tell you how this worked out? I didn’t think so.
One Sunday visit was all it took to make the indelible and correct impression that they were not “like us” and were not going to get a warm reception. Despite the stalwart attempts of a few good people, my “trailer park” people never came back.
This incident remains with me because my church had, previous to my coming, experienced quite a bit of growth under the previous pastor. Like most other Kentucky Baptist churches, that growth was along the lines of family, marriage and children; reaching “unchurched” members of the clans that dominated our church. Because this kind of growth was facilitated by the popularity of the previous pastor and it resulted in family pride, it was the kind of growth the church embraced. It gave them exactly what they wanted: their families next to them in the pews.
But when I asked our church to do baby steps of evangelism outside of those lines and into a different culture right out our back door, I got nothing, even though many of our people were mature Christians, trained in evangelism and genuinely wanted church growth. I would get a hundred for a gospel singing on any rainy Saturday night, but go do evangelistic work in a trailer park? See you Sunday pastor.
This is not a conversation about understanding the content of the Gospel. It’s not a conversation about methods. Even though it should be, it’s not a conversation about the role of the pastor. (It’s ridiculous that we’ve become so enamored of preachers that church members will openly say their church is growing because the pastor and his wife are “cute.”)
This needs to be a conversation about who we are, and if the average Christian in our churches would be willing to do anything, personally, in the cause of evangelism?
We have become a denomination whose leaders talk about evangelism, but whose people actually want little to nothing to do with it.
Our decline is because of who we want to be and how we want things to operate. We want the culture to adjust to us. We want our families to be saved. We don’t want to cross any barriers and we don’t want to have do something we decided the pastor is paid to do.
Get ready for many, many years of this. I think most churches will die before they will change this pattern.
NOTW: When a great unifying and focused evangelistic call does come, be sure that it will prompt plenty of controversy from the status quo.
Is that a picture of Jimmy Page playing “Stairway to Heaven?”
>…surrender my heritage bequeth to me by my forefathers
And what Biblical characters are you sounding like, brother?
Hint: They were shocked at Jesus’ lack of serious Jewishness and appreciation for pure Jewish culture. Did you see who Jesus was letting into the Kingdom?
When I am defending the heritage of my forefathers I better do a quick check on the “Where is my Kingdom loyalty?”
peace
ms
Hmmm, when you put it as objectionably as that it’s hard to keep making excuses for the “them&us” polarisation that seems rife within the Christian community. That video is racist and vile. It’s the thick end of the wedge.
I have to stop pretending that the thin edge is harmless. It’s really not OK for Christians to see non-Christians as the enemy they need to protect themselves from.
See, this is why I love you.
Jesus said to love our neighbors. Looks like we need to make some cookies, because a moving truck just pulled up.
I would like to point out on this thread that there are, and have been Muslim democracies. Turkey, Lebanon (for a while at least), Iran, (post WWII until the Shah was put back into power) and India has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world that is an active participated part of their democracy. They have not been perfect but they do exist. And lest we get too high up on our house it was within the lifetimes of some on this thread when certain minorities were denied participation in our system of government.
I am not trying to defend the problems and crimes committed by Muslim peoples in history, but there seems to be a current on this thread that Muslim people just can’t be part of a democracy and that is just not true.
As Terry Eagleton points out in his book “Reason, Faith, and Revolution” there were scholars of Islam who could make communism and Islam work together. I am sure there are tons of Islamic scholars who find support and connections between Islam and democracy.
Wow I am being greatly encouraged by some of the comments here. My perspective is healing, you might say. Now I just want to go out and make some Muslim friends so I can tell them about Jesus.
What a novel idea!
Part of me bemoans heavily this them/us mentality that is the Great Inhibition to the Great Commission imo. How are we supposed to win to Christ those people whom we aren’t supposed to associate with?
In my fundamentalist upbringing, I remember being told not to hang out with goths/punks. I remember thinking, “How is that even remotely what Jesus would do?” If I truly cared for their souls I would spend more time with them.
Now it think that dilemma has come to the church in the Muslim community in America. Are we actively seeking to befriend these people? Would our churches be a place where a “seeking Muslim” would be welcomed? Dear God have mercy on us for our self-righteous demonization of sinners, and give us all a compassion for their perishing state.
Thanks Michael. I cannot agree more. People claim to love the gospel but refuse to be inconvenienced enough to share it.
Dan
When we see both Christians and Muslims set on dominating the world, it’s enough to make me wonder 1) if organized religion in general is evil and 2) if there’s actually a God at all.
If we know them by their fruits, is the world better off with or without Islam? Is it better off with or without Christianity?
Are we claiming that when good and evil based on religion are weighed that there will be more good?
I’m not defining good as mere faith in Jesus Christ or obedience to Allah. I’m defining good as actuality in the here and now.
I would like to see a quantitative analysis – people killed by religion vs. people who have had their lives improved by religion in ways that would not have happened without religion.
I suspect one can grow closer to God and goodness without organized religion than they can by joining an organization which, by charter, says its members are going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell.
>I’m not willing to take that risk with my children’s future
>>The best man in my wedding took his family and has lived in an Arab state for 20 years. Did he put his children at risk?
I am a European living in a Middle Eastern Islamic state. I am very happy to be raising my kids here, but would be terrified if I had to “risk their futures” by moving to America. I would far rather they grow up here than experience the consumerist Evangelical church culture I read about on the internet.
“If we really want to make a difference we should move small groups of Christians, living Christian society, into Muslim countries that are open. Just live there. I don’t think we’re willing to do that, though. I know I’m not.”
Come on over, it’s a much healthier place to be. Or at least come for the sake of your children…
I have lots of Muslim friends. Some are nominal, some are minimal, a couple could be described as mystics. They would never treat Christians (or whatever) with anything other than respect, though converting them is just not on. You should also know that there are minority groups within Islam. (Check out the Alevi, then come back and tell me how dangerous they are!)
In the course of a Wanderjahr backpacking across Asia, I traveled through several majority-Muslim countries, and met more of a range of people. Most were just going on with their own lives, and had no interest in killing anybody or converting anybody. They saw the USA (this was during the Gulf War) as something out of their control, like their own governments, or the weather. However, many knew people who had moved there, and thought of them as extremely fortunate. Israel received a good deal more venom (and small wonder). A few people threw rocks at me. Many times that number offered me tea.
US liberals sometimes liken evangelical Christians to the Taliban. Is this fair? Both seek to dominate their respective societies, if not one another’s as well. The Christians seem to be less interested in killing those who offend them, but have been responsible for more deaths in absolute numbers–through war and so forth, though these seem to have been motivated by non-religious concerns. Good government is most likely to be enjoyed by cultural Christians and Shinto-ists, IMHO.
Later this century, I do expect Europe and the Middle East to blend together culturally. (The division between them being kind of artificial.) Of course there will be problems, but when are there not problems?
As someone who grew up as an MK in a country that was 97% Muslim, I say right on. It really is about who we are. Here’s one of the bits American Christiantiy is too often missing:
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death…
(Philippians 2:5 and following)
I don’t have space for all the stories, but trust me: that really is what it takes many times to evangelize in a Muslim culture.
I don’t see much of that attitude in the U.S. culture war evangelicals. Why? Because it’s hard and sacrificial and counter-cultural. Evangelizing Muslims (and, increasingly, evangelizing unbelievers in our own culture) can take years of such living and giving. Evangelicals generally don’t have the patience for that kind of incarnational witness; we’re programmed by church programs that last perhaps a couple of months at most!
Those looking in from the outside (and many of us on the inside or in the bridgeless borderlands– including me and my kids) see this, and they know enough about Christiantity to know there’s a huge disconnect betwen who we are and who our scriptures say we ought to be (yes, I know the line about how getting rid of the hypocrites would empty the churches, but what I’m really talking about here goes way beyond that to a sort of betrayal of identity). Disillusionment follows.
I sometimes wonder fleetingly if we are seeing the fulfillment of the statement that in the last days people will be “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy Ch 3). I sure hope not. There is too much Kingdom work left to do.
Imonk,
To suggest that we have to be open border multi-culturalist to sound like Christ and to do else is to be a pharisee is just poor reasoning and intellectually dishonest.
No where in the Bible does it say I have to surrender the political, governmental and secular priviledges and rights won and kept for me by the blood of my ancestors to be Christlike.
Some of us still have young families Imonk, I don’t look forward to the day when there might be more mosque than churhces in some large urban American areas. That is the case, or soon will be, in some parts of Europe.
You fail to distinguish b/w the Kingdom and secular governments. Orderly borders, governments, and powers are established by God for the wellbeing of man.
Just becasue we should have a heart for the lost regardless of their present political or cultural state doesn’t mean we are required or even should welcome their cultural or political state.
In fact history has a pretty good example of rapid and strong missionary movement taking place in what many would today consider bigoted, ethnocentric, and nationalistic mentalities i.e. the Victorian era.
Austin, that young family is exactly why you need to get out of that cozy christian culture fast, before it gets ‘em. Honestly, a majority muslim country is going to be a whole lot healthier than one swarming with cultural christians.
Austin,
You seem to be saying you owe your “ancestors” some kind of political loyalty.
I get the point about not despising blessings achieved and passed on, but Christ puts us in another Kingdom. I am not a citizen of America or the South first. Can’t be. Not possible.
And cultural Christianity is white dominated, yes or no?
ms
Topher,
I’ll give you Turkey, even though it’s the most secular almost of all Islamic states. Lebanon has a sizable Christian population. The rest were heavily colonized by Western countries.
I just don’t think it is a coincedence that democracy developed and flourished under western Christian thought.
“Good fences make good neighbours”
I think we are dual citizens. Render unto Ceaser and all.
Our Christian citizenship should and does trump our secular loyalty.
I’m not a flag waiver Imonk, I would not be offended if we took ours out of the sanctuary. I just don’t want us to get a too rosey view of Islam in our eagerness to reach out to those trapped in it.
I’m not sure I understand your question about white dominated, but I’ll give it a try after tee-ball tonight.
peace
Jenny,
I’m not speaking of cultural Christianity. My family does pretty well existing for the most part out side of it as well. I’m speaking of sincere Christianity beside sincere Islam. I’ll take a culture undpinned by the former anyday. Like Lewis Grizzard used to say. They sale tickets to Muslim countries everyday if they are so great to live in.
I do not however deny the rot in our own culture.
Austin’s comments bring to mind the fact that fear as a way of determining our actions and in what direction we should go, both as a country…and as individual Christians, is a overbearing master.
I’m not trying to be all Pollyanna-ish. I grant that the world is sometimes a scary place.
However…why are we letting our fears make our decisions for us? Why are we deterimining what we should do based on fear?
Where is our faith? Where is our bravery?
We give fear too much power over our lives.
I used to have discussions with a muslim man who was living in my neighborhood with his son. He was a professor from Pakistan. He said we had “too much freedom” in America. He liked freedom, but wanted more limits on it.
As far as the comments about evangelism and the church: Nothing has changed. Everyone commenting in here acts as if things are different now than in the 1st century or the 12th century. There is always an ebb and flow. We are in a spiritual battle. The enemy adjusts his strategies as we advance. The point is to keep advancing. Set the captives free.
There is always this desire for folks who call themselves Christians to criticize Christians and the Church. Hypocrites in the Church? Do Tell! Preach the Gospel. In season and out of season. Our real battle is the purity of the Gospel itself. Many who “profess” christianity have become so ecumenical that they say hindus, muslims, and buddhists are christians by default, and then there is the attack on “Scripture Alone” by the Emergent Church. Remember it is the Truth in Love. Some want to bang the Truth. Others want to feel the Love. Truth without Love is just noise. Love without Truth is melted butter that is now a stain on your shirt. The early church had Marcion, etc… Truth won out. Athanasius stood up against many odds and the “unifiers” of the time called him contentious for standing for the Truth. There is no perfect church, but there is a perfect Truth. Christ Jesus.
For Jenny to even hint that a majority muslim nation is to be desired is ridiculous. Pax Romana is more desirable. Muslim nations restrict speech, travel, literature, etc… All Muslim countries are oppressive. Some more than others. We don’t have a Christian culture, we have a secular culture with Judeo Christian values that are rapidly disappearing. What we want to preserve is Pax Romana so we can share the Gospel in freedom and have open discussions like this on Christian conduct and the role of the church.
Imonk-
Consistently I read your writing and find myself more excited and hopeful than I have felt about Christianity since I was a teen and left the faith. I pray you keep asking the questions you are asking, and am grateful beyond words that you share the results of your thinking on what it means to truly life a Christ Shaped life.
Sarah
Headless Unicorn Guy’s post about the Wahhabi is very timely, and one part strikes me as ironic:
“The Wahabi (and their extreme fringe of the Taliban and al-Qaeda) have reacted by trying to force the rest of reality into what they want it to be — the utopian dream of a Perpetual Year One of the Hegira.”
That’s *their* version of the Culture Wars right there, lads. The Taliban are the most extreme case, but they’re just doing what the Good Christian Soldiers in the video are trying to do: impose a particular culture according to an idealised version of the past, with heavily-revised-going-back-to-the-original-primitive-pure doctrine religious elements.
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
They so is, Martha.
Joseph,
Jimmy’s not playing ‘Stairway to Heaven’ with the double-neck guitar; it’s ‘Dazed and Confused’ a slight variation on Page’s ‘I’m Confused’ with the Yardbirds.
Lance Atanasius, I am not intending to suggest that a Musim majority is to be desired. I was trying to interact with the fear expressed about raising children in a country where the percentage of muslims is increasing. I would not want sharia law in America, but neither do I want the Christian “Focus on the Family” version. However, there are many reasons to fear raising your children in the present USA, which may be less obvious to those currently submerged in the culture.
Tod Erickson: “What if our culture, as American Christians, is literally poisoning us?” That is exactly what I’m trying to get at. I am not convinced that Islamic culture is any more toxic.
“Sincere Christianity”, as opposed to “sincere Islam”, is not a state-builder, and christianity tends to be healthiest when christians are in the minority.
Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
Please name the Muslim-dominated countries where the rights of non-Muslims, especially Christians, have not been destroyed or at least substantially truncated.
desiderius: The reason I said less than certain is that the assumption in the video is that Muslims will reject constitutional democracies, etc and replace the with worst case scenarios.
I’d say that this data seriously questions that assumption:
The Coexist Poll:
http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/118249/Gallup-Coexist-Index-2009.aspx
Muslims and Democracy:
http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/109489/Islam-Democracy.aspx
Ironically, on many culture war issues, Muslims are significantly more conservative than Christians in the west.
http://boarsheadtavern.com/2009/05/08/6939/
One more thing: before we blame Islam for the dearth of democracies in Muslim countries, recall that Western imperialism (including the U.S. variety) has suppressed–and in some cases continues to suppress–democratic or constitutional movements in various Middle Eastern countries. It seems that Christian leaders prefer to prop up autocrats or military juntas, rather than see populisms erupt that might turn against Western interests.
I hope everyone is reading http://www.juancole.com
Goodness gracious. Was this put together by a conspiracy theorist, end-times focused group?
I don’t doubt that there has been a significant increase in the Muslim population in some European nations, specifically France and the UK being two of the bigger ones that I am aware of. But the video focuses mainly on the demographics of the western, white world. What of the rest of the world? I suppose the group is made of of upper middle-class, white westerners (and probably from America).
My understanding is that 15-20,000 come to Christ each day in India. These same estimates stand true for Africa. At a ministry college I used to work at in the UK, Rheinhard Bonke shared some of the powerful things he has seen happen right across Africa. Some quite amazing things. Africa went from be 4% professing Christians in 1900 to 40% professing Christians in 1990. China has seen the biggest explosion of the kingdom in 20,000+ coming to Christ on an average per day. The church in China has now reached well over 100 million, and this in a country where there are very restrictive rules on the practice of our faith. Explosions of this magnitude continue right across South America, especially in places like Argentina. Not to mention the slow snowball gaining momentum in eastern European nations of the former Soviet state. The seed of the kingdom is slowly but steadily growing since freedom in the early 1990’s. In all, there are possibly 80-100,000 people born again each day on the planet. That means some 30 million come to Christ each year! Absolutely astounding!! There are now probably well over 1 billion Christians in the earth today, and possibly closer to 2 billion, which is about a quarter of the world’s current population. I’m not trying to go all postmillenial, but God is doing quite ok in expanding His kingdom in the earth as the waters cover the sea.
No doubt such expanding numbers aren’t quite as big a reality in North America and Europe, but God is at work drawing people to Himself. But there are seasons and times. Perhaps it is the time and season for Latin America, the Asiatics and Africa.
I think the video was more about showing the evils of Islam rather than encouraging the gospel to be proclaimed. The video seems more to provoke action our of fear rather than empowering people with the reality of the resurrection life we proclaim. Not helpful or healthy from my perspective.
I’m with desiderius on this. Of course we should befriend Muslims here in our North American suburbs and of course we should take the gospel into those difficult Muslim fields. But Michael, you did not answer desiderius’ question: which Muslim country does not substantially truncate the rights of non-Muslims? Put another way, aside from ideals of Christian mission, or living in an oil company compound, in which Muslim dominated country would the average American feel comfortable living? You might try Turkey, but this is exactly the point: Turkey is the most secular of Muslim countries and therefore the most inviting. Still, Turkey has the potential to blow sky high with a takeover by radical Muslims.
DSY
I grant the point in most cases where the culture/history is non-democratic. I don’t grant it in the case of Europe, Canada, etc. The Coexist data indicates that most Muslims in the west value western institutions.
It’s all largely irrelevant to Christians anyway. Are commanded to fight a culture war for the side that grants us more tolerance, even as it grants ungodliness in general just as much tolerance?
ms
“I am a European living in a Middle Eastern Islamic state. I am very happy to be raising my kids here, but would be terrified if I had to “risk their futures” by moving to America. I would far rather they grow up here than experience the consumerist Evangelical church culture I read about on the internet.”
Ouch, just ouch. Interesting (or not) how easily we see the flaws/drawbacks of other cultures but fail to see our own.
“in which Muslim dominated country would the average American feel comfortable living?”
I think it is exactly this desire for “comfortable living” that is killing vibrant christianity in the West. It is this that causes us to sell out to consumerism/materialism, happily anaesthetised to what this poisonous brew is doing to us.
This “scary” video is designed to make us cling to our comfort all the tighter, it does not encourage faith in what God is up to.
Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
Turkey is the only exception to the rule that Muslim-dominated countries have some form of Islamic law, and Ataturk’s project is neither particularly old, nor, it seems, necessarily guaranteed to last as a secular state for much longer.
I’ve noticed in that most of the links you’ve provided about Islam and democracy, the word “liberal” is strikingly absent. An Islamic republic can be both democratic and constitutional without enjoying the freedoms we take for granted in the West.
Love the pic of Jimmy Page!
“in which Muslim dominated country would the average American feel comfortable living?”
Uh, I’d recommend Turkey or Indonesia, maybe Egypt (if it’s not too poor for the average American to withstand).
A wonderful post, Michael, and thanks for your insightful, thought-provoking response. We should be less afraid of the Muslim “hoardes” and more afraid of our increasingly shallow version of Christianity.
However, I think perhaps that those folks most afraid of the so-called culture clash revealed in the video, are also those least likely to see and fight for the obvious solution: education and emancipation of women world-wide, especially Muslim women. If our culture would represent a serious insistence for treating women with the same respect and dignity that Jesus did will transform this discussion, and reveal the true evil: mysogony.
Hello, hope I’m not too late to get in on the discussion here.
I think another issue in the decline of evangelism is something which you touched on in an earlier post somewhere along the line, where you said that most Christians nowadays have a more humble view of their faith and are very uncomfortable with big, bad, bodacious expressions of faith which scream “HEY!!! LOOK AT ME
Here is the rest of the sentence which I was in the middle of typing when I somehow accidentally hit the “submit” button: I think most Christians are uncomfortable with big, bad, bodacious expressions of faith which scream “HEY!!! LOOK AT ME if you want to know what God is like!!!”
First, it was the Catholics. Then it was gays and lesbians. Now it’s Muslims. Who’s next, I wonder?
The irony is that under Islam the culture warriors could keep the uppity feminists in their place, outlaw abortion, kill gays, and insist on a literal reading of creation. So what’s the problem?
Exactly, ATChaffee… I keep seeing this video on hardcore dominionist blogs.
Sam Urfer wrote: “European and American society seem to be in a hurry to self-destruct through a narcissistic slackness of procreation. It’s not so much a matter of us needing to have children to boost our “team” versus the Muslim “team”, as that human society cannot function when everybody is limiting their number of children. Why are we dooming ourselves?”
Sam – I’m not so sure having more babies is the solution to anything, for anyone. Here’s a quote to throw into the mix…
“In a study titled Food, Land, Population and the U.S. Economy, David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell University, and Mario Giampietro, senior researcher at the US National Research Institute on Food and Nutrition (INRAN), estimate the maximum U.S. population for a sustainable economy at 200 million. To achieve a sustainable economy and avert disaster, the United States must reduce its population by at least one-third, and world population will have to be reduced by two-thirds, says the study.”
Why are we dooming ourselves by over-populating a planet which we seem hellbent on destroying in the name of progress?
The irony is that under Islam the culture warriors could keep the uppity feminists in their place, outlaw abortion, kill gays, and insist on a literal reading of creation. So what’s the problem? — AT Chaffee
More than that, AT. Under the Taliban:
* Everybody constantly Studied and Memorized and Quoted and Recited SCRIPTURE (the Koran)…
* Everybody constantly Praised God every time they opened their mouths (”AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”)…
* Everyone lived by God’s Law (Shari’a), not Man’s…
* All women dressed modestly (the Burqa) and saved themselves for marriage (honor killings)…
The only thing I see Christian Culture Warriors objecting to is WHOSE book was SCRIPTURE (TM); other than that…
“To achieve a sustainable economy and avert disaster, the United States must reduce its population by at least one-third, and world population will have to be reduced by two-thirds, says the study.”
And just how is this “reducing world population by two-thirds” to be done to Save the Planet (TM)?
Environmentally-friendly Zyklon B?
A Carbon-Neutral alternative to Krema Ovens?
And who of Gaia’s Faithful get to be Dr Mengele making the Selections?
Or maybe take the Stalin approach instead, with engineered famine (”We didn’t kill anybody — starvation did! Just as was prophesied in The Population Bomb!”)
THAT’S what “reducing population” implies. Especially a crash program of Reducing Population (TM) now that Global Warming (TM) Is Upon Us(!!!)
“I just don’t think it is a coincedence that democracy developed and flourished under western Christian thought.”
More like western neo-greek. Democracy erupted in the enlightenment when it became more fashionable for intellectuals to cite and study Platon and crew than the Bible.
Lots of fear, exaggeration, likely innocent misdirection and even some wild moral equivalence (Taliban ~= “Good Christian Soldiers”!) on this thread. The demographic numbers here are suspect , but even if they are accurate it’s only part of the story. Assimilation and moderation versus extremism in the Islamic community is exceptionally hard to measure and prone to bias, no doubt. I wouldn’t even know how to go about objectively measuring it. The proper approach to Islam as a believing Christian is another interesting topic. Not that I have any good insight on this, but certainly it’s worth a thread of it’s own.
However there is one piece of the story that’s basically Western and does interest me as a Christian and in general. That is the lack of confidence of the West in itself and the recasting of children and fertility and human life generally as some Malthusian/eco-horror.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Children are gifts and blessings and human life is precious. Where is your faith? Be fruitful and multiply. God provides for the birds, how much more so for you and I who are worth so much more than swallows? Any demographic failure in Europe or here for that matter is in part due to selfishness and in part to a lack of faith in God’s providence.
Birth control in a Christian context would also make a fascinating thread. While it’s not a typical Protestant question I’d be interested in seeing where that might go.
Oh, I remember seeing this. Like ScottL, I thought it was pretty biased and only from a Western perspective. The creator has never been to Nigeria, which is 50% Muslim, and the Christian population is far from being swallowed by the Muslim population. He’s not counting the non-European populations around the world of which many Christians are a part.
But I am also no fan of just having more children so that more Christians would be on earth.
After a while, this sounded like the adults on the Charlie Brown show. Christianity does not revolve around the West. This is not 1861, Mr. Video Man. And he’s obviously not heard of the cultural phenomenon of former colonized people going back to the countries that colonized them. I can’t remember the term right now, but that’s one reason why Europe has a huge Middle Eastern and African population.
Sorry, Mr Headless, but I do take great offence at your outburst. I didn’t realise this blog was a legitimate place for accusations of Stalinist or otherwise genocidal outlook. It’s hard for me not to take your comments as some kind of character assassination.
I would never condone any of those things you suggest, and certainly don’t think there is any simple to the problem of over-population. I am only drawing attention to the fact that, in a world with finite resources available, we cannot expect infinite, or even indefinite population growth to be sustainable. It’s just simple logic. Maybe I should have added “in the long-term” to clarify what I thought would have been fairly obvious.
Saying that the US population needs to be less in the long-term (ie decades) than it currently is, in order for any human population to viable, secure and healthy long-term is not the same as suggesting that it should be forcibly reduced by any means now.
Apparently, there is a strong correlation between offering a higher and more universal standard of education to women, and greater genuine freedom of choice regarding family planning to women, and a reduction in birth rates. I wonder how high those issues are on the agendas of our religious spokespeople, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim or otherwise.
Oh, and thanks for confirming the stereotype I’ve been trying to shake of North American Christians as being those who would ride rough-shod over the earth we’ve been given to care for in the name of progress. And I guess Global Warming is a conspiritorial myth of the left-wing too…
hey all, just watched that video it was very interesting. just to say Ive done a little bit of research on comparative religion. With the implementation of the first Islamic state in Madinah, it proved to be a positive thing. with the growth of the Islamic nation, overnight a barbaric people were changed into what we would call civilized.
The growth of Islam may be a good thing for Europe and America which has high rates of crime, and increasingly secular views.